Nuclear power plants

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
76
My understanding of modern nuclear reactions (the ones used for civilian power stations in the US) are designed such that the only way for a reaction to occur is if the plant is actively supplying a resource (meaning that if for whatever reason the plant was abandoned, attacked, had to be shut down), it is merely a matter of shutting down the flow. Do I understand this correctly?
 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,528
4
0
you have to insert the control rods and then you still have to maintain cooling, by using the LPCI, HPCI, or RHR systems (or whatever the plant has)
 

Kilgor

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
3,292
0
0
Sounds like you have a fairly good understanding of modern nuclear reactors to me. But I of course know nothing at all about them.

Edit: For not Knowing about spelling either.
 

Heisenberg

Lifer
Dec 21, 2001
10,621
1
0
The fuel rods always remain stationary. The control rods are what control the reaction, and in modern nuclear plants they are designed to shut down the reaction just by way of gravity pulling them down into the core. So that even in the event of a complete system failure, the reaction will be stopped.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
76
Originally posted by: Heisenberg
The fuel rods always remain stationary. The control rods are what control the reaction, and in modern nuclear plants they are designed to shut down the reaction just by way of gravity pulling them down into the core. So that even in the event of a complete system failure, the reaction will be stopped.



Ah, ok. Would that apply to both PWR and BWR reactors?
 

Heisenberg

Lifer
Dec 21, 2001
10,621
1
0
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: Heisenberg
The fuel rods always remain stationary. The control rods are what control the reaction, and in modern nuclear plants they are designed to shut down the reaction just by way of gravity pulling them down into the core. So that even in the event of a complete system failure, the reaction will be stopped.



Ah, ok. Would that apply to both PWR and BWR reactors?
I believe so, but there are a lot of different reactor designs so it's kind of hard to make a broad statement. And I am by no means an expert on the subject.

Edit: After a bit of reading, it seems BWR reactors must have the control rods inserted from below, so the gravity fail-safe wouldn't work.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
its called a SCRAM (shutdown control rod ax man)

the control rods are made of halfnium (neutron absorber) and raised up to start the reaction. if an emergency requires the reaction to be stopped, the rods are released (a loss of power also releases the rods) and are driven back down into the core to stop the reaction by both gravity and springs

this is called SCRAMing the reactor

civilian plants are a little different than naval reactors, but the basics of all PWR (pressurized water reactors) are the same

the real key to your question may be that a PWR core has a negative temperature coefficient
this means that as the temperature of the coolant rises, it introduces a negative reactivity, which tries to shutdown the reaction. this is temperature feedback, it enhances safety. the graphite reactor at chernobyl had a positive temperature coefficient, so as it got hotter/too hot, it causes the nuclear reaction to grow, which was bad
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
No, it wouldn't, PWR control rods are inserted from the top, and will fall in due to gravity, BWR control rods are inserted from the bottom since the steam equipment has to been on the top of the pressure vessel. However the BWR has some other failsafe mechanism so that the control rods will be inserted, but I don't remember what it is. Also, inserting the control rods only knocks down the power about 95%, there is still a substantial amount of power being generated by the spontaneous decay of short lived actinides produced by the reaction. So, you still have to maintain cooling or bad stuff can happen. So, its not a good thing if you just shutdown a reactor and then leave (it aint gonna blow up or anything though). The Gen 3+ reactors have additional passive safety measures in order to ensure cooling for ~3 days with not outside intervention.

EDIT: looked it up for BWRs, and they use a pressurized water system to insert the control rods on a loss of power.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: FoBoT
its called a SCRAM (shutdown control rod ax man)

the control rods are made of halfnium (neutron absorber) and raised up to start the reaction. if an emergency requires the reaction to be stopped, the rods are released (a loss of power also releases the rods) and are driven back down into the core to stop the reaction by both gravity and springs

this is called SCRAMing the reactor

civilian plants are a little different than naval reactors, but the basics of all PWR (pressurized water reactors) are the same

the real key to your question may be that a PWR core has a negative temperature coefficient
this means that as the temperature of the coolant rises, it introduces a negative reactivity, which tries to shutdown the reaction. this is temperature feedback, it enhances safety. the graphite reactor at chernobyl had a positive temperature coefficient, so as it got hotter/too hot, it causes the nuclear reaction to grow, which was bad

The latter melted the pathway into which the control rods could drop, not allowing them to drop all the way, thus creating an even greater problem.

What were the Russkies thinking???
 

Sc4freak

Guest
Oct 22, 2004
953
0
0
Originally posted by: eits
i'll ask my mom... she's a senior project manager for 3 nuclear power plants.
Heh. And my father has a Master's in Nuclear Engineering, specialising in reactor physics, from the University of London.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
What company she with? My dads a nuclear engineer with TVA which is why I actually know something about this.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
Wikipedia has insanely long and detailed articles about this, and forty to sixty sources on each article; Wikipedia FTW!
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Sc4freak
Originally posted by: eits
i'll ask my mom... she's a senior project manager for 3 nuclear power plants.
Heh. And my father has a Master's in Nuclear Engineering, specialising in reactor physics, from the University of London.

Well MY dad has a masters in nuclear engineering from UVA and a MBA. Also my mom has a bachelors in nuclear engineering and an MBA as well .
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
76
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
Wikipedia has insanely long and detailed articles about this, and forty to sixty sources on each article; Wikipedia FTW!

It does have articles, but the safety issue is largely ignored.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
It seemed well-covered to me, but I'm not by any means a nuclear engineer.
 

Sc4freak

Guest
Oct 22, 2004
953
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: Sc4freak
Originally posted by: eits
i'll ask my mom... she's a senior project manager for 3 nuclear power plants.
Heh. And my father has a Master's in Nuclear Engineering, specialising in reactor physics, from the University of London.

Well MY dad has a masters in nuclear engineering from UVA and a MBA. Also my mom has a bachelors in nuclear engineering and an MBA as well .
Haha, my daddy can kick your daddy's ass any day of the week!

 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,441
27
91
Originally posted by: BrownTown
No, it wouldn't, PWR control rods are inserted from the top, and will fall in due to gravity, BWR control rods are inserted from the bottom since the steam equipment has to been on the top of the pressure vessel. However the BWR has some other failsafe mechanism so that the control rods will be inserted, but I don't remember what it is. Also, inserting the control rods only knocks down the power about 95%, there is still a substantial amount of power being generated by the spontaneous decay of short lived actinides produced by the reaction. So, you still have to maintain cooling or bad stuff can happen. So, its not a good thing if you just shutdown a reactor and then leave (it aint gonna blow up or anything though). The Gen 3+ reactors have additional passive safety measures in order to ensure cooling for ~3 days with not outside intervention.

EDIT: looked it up for BWRs, and they use a pressurized water system to insert the control rods on a loss of power.

Civilian power plants are different enough from navy power plants that I won't even pretend to be an expert on them, but a buddy of mine worked for a while at a civilian plant. The way he explained it to me, the control rods take you down below sustainable reactivity, but to completely shut down the reactor, you have to inject (if I remember right) boron into the coolant, which acts as a massive neutron "sponge", and pretty much kills the reaction.
Navy power plants, on the other hand, will pretty much kill all but background reactivity with the insertion of the control rods on a SCRAM action, and don't require the injection of boron into the coolant (which is a good thing, since I imagine flushing that crud back out is somewhat of a chore). Also, the production of fission daughters tends to act as neutron sponges after a reactor shutdown, making an immediate restart harder than the initial startup of the reactor (this effect is much more exagerrated toward the end of the reactor core life). Add to that the negative reactivity mentioned above, caused by the rise in coolant water temperature, and a scrammed navy reactor stays shutdown, unless a restart is initiated by the reactor operator.

Geez, I almost sound like I still know what I'm talking about, don't I?? The funny thing is, I can't hardly tell you what I had for dinner 2 nights ago, but I can still remember crap like this, that I learned over 25 years ago!!! :roll: :laugh:

Hopefully that answers your questions, SarcasticDwarf?? Oh yeah, here's something else I remember......navy nuclear power class number 8107. Dang, that was a loooooong time ago!!
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
i was 8602 , the second class at the new NPS Orlando
:Q

i had, something for dinner friday, i don't know

 

Kenny1234

Senior member
Aug 31, 2003
317
0
0
I believe that the design of BWRs require the control rods to inserted from the bottom of the reactor.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: Sc4freak
Originally posted by: eits
i'll ask my mom... she's a senior project manager for 3 nuclear power plants.
Heh. And my father has a Master's in Nuclear Engineering, specialising in reactor physics, from the University of London.

cool. my mom graduated from the university of michigan. she got her master's at johns hopkins.
 
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