nVidia's Problems

[InlineFive]

100th post in this thread!

 

[JJN]

I'm not going to even try to keep up with you guys on all this code talk but to me a couple things are obvious from the dozens if not hundreds of reviews I've read over the past 1-2 years:

Different hardware designs, and different software/drivers, handle games differently. Each company (ATI/Nvidia) have had different problems with different aspects of games. Its probably impossible to make a gpu that is perfect/excellent at every component of every different game. Therefore they use roundabout ways to improve in the areas that they struggle. Nvidia's issues are well documented and ATI has had there share of problems/cheats too. In 90+ % of the games comparable cards perform so similar the differences are not even noticeable. I think its time to move on.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Everytime, someone always has to acknowledge that this is gonna start a war.

Pixel Shader 2.0 performance is horrible

Just not the best. Still improving but, ready to hit a wall. It's just not up to par with ATI's performance.

Missing some of the PS 2.0 level features in their drivers, HDR as an example which is going to be used by HL2

PS2, Idk, just know its DX9, which would then mean that they have been falsely advertising their product. And why DX9 SDK doesn't work is beyond me. Looks suspicious. They probably just focused more on OpenGL than DX.

Driver bugs completely screwing up the fog in several titles(MOH as an example)

I can attest to that. Really screwed up the game. It made the game so much less enjoyable than it should have been.

AA quality @ 4x and higher sucks compared to ATi

ATI just uses a better method. Still don't understand why they didn't use Rotated Grid. I'm curious what the story is behind it. Maybe it would have knocked off the Q AA.

Gets their @ss kicked in some games embarassingly so(Mafia as an example)

Very true. The benches show it. They get demolished at some points.

Dropping AF quality compared to the NV2X line while ATi is making huge gains

I've heard that, but don't know if it is true or not.

'Brilinear' hack to improve performance

It improves performance but isn't like bilinear at all. I think this was a smart move, but they should have given it another name instead of redefining trilinear and given an option to turn it on.

Cheats in 3DMark2K3 with static clip plains with older drivers

Noone said that they couldn't do that. Performance versus IQ is all up to them really. Although I think that they should give an option to the consumer to turn on optimizations one by one and/or for certain games. Defining the optimizations. Their main focus should be to render it just as the reference. Then apply the optimizations and see how good they look compared to the reference and how good the performance is. I don't think this is cheating because there were no rules set. unless they make the reference the rules. That would be a good idea.

Per app optimizations can create confusion on how the boards will perform across the board

Sure, but many other variables, influence that too. Each game may stress different parts of the system. Ex. some CPU bound, others GPU bound, others a mixture of both. Then there are per company optimizations that the developer can code for. Then there are from the company per game optimizations like you are saying here. It is very difficult to not have these. If everyone did the same thing how it is supposed to be done, the the similarities between each company increases and there would be no need for these wars. Just which logo looks the best. I like ATI's old logo a little better. The new one is a little more elegant but not as cool. nvidia is just weird, but original.

Being that they also work at higher speeds seem to make ATI more attractive to doing the same with less power and profile. Better engineering, software geared towards performance. I like that. Makes me think of AMD vs Intel. AMD is to ATI as Intel is to Nvidia. I don't like Intel becaus they don't seem to be doing the smart thing. Luckily they are around becaus of their previous reputation that has given themselves to OEMs and because they control the Motherboard specs and things like that. Just like the PS2 is living off of the PSX. PS2 is some horrible POS, yet wins awards - jus as Nvidia and Intel do even though the smart ones that push better performance utilizing less power stay behind. Also can be compared to the car market. While GMC says they are professional grade - they just add more stuff to it. What kind of professional releases a car with potential defects. America puts on the bulk and the Power, while japanese use the brains to make the most out of the least without defects. I think that is smart.

I'm going to have to agree that PS2 is a piece of crap, even Dreamcast outdoes it more often than not.

 

[VIAN]

I'm going to have to agree that PS2 is a piece of crap, even Dreamcast outdoes it more often than not.

Check this out.

Here is an article posted in a forum. I can't find the original article right now, but it said the exact same thing.

PS2 is the biggest disappointment for me. I'm disappointed at Sony from the engineering aspect more. If they are supposed to be so good at electronics, then why is this POS released. It has crap written all over it. Let's face it, if this console would have been Sony's first, it would have died just as the dreamcast, unfortunately, did. Sony is living off of reputation. They don't need to try anymore, they can just release something and people will jump at it. Fact is Sony is one of the luckiest son's of Bs anyone could be. They came in just at the right time. Let me recap.

1995-1996 console release: Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation, Nintendo 64

Technically speaking, Sony is the worst performer out of all the consoles. Sega made a big mistake launching their console early because the lauch games weren't finished yet and it was such a silent launch too. Then Sony released their console with games. People went for Sony's machine because it had games. In 1996 Ninendo also released its console with very few titles and distant releases. People in Japan bought it and then sold it after no more games were available. Sony had games more games than both conoles and a price better than the Saturn. Then came FF:VII. This boosted the console's sales and sold very well, breaking records. This was the game that pretty-much bought Sony's reputation. Sony was the one to succeed here. In Japan, people were all into the Saturn. Sony wasn't very big in Japan. Neither is Square. Weird huh. During this time, Nintendo was also dubbed as a kiddy console, releasing only fun games instead of scary mature games.

. This paved the way for Sony's success with the PS2.

1999-2001 console release: Sega Dreamcast, Sony Playstation 2, Microsoft Xbox, Nintendo Gamecube.

Sega Dreamcast wowed everyone away with its insane graphics. They are still great. I would rather look at Dreamcast then PS2. Some games such as Soul Caliber can never be touch by the PS2 in the graphics department. Dreamcast broke record sales. Although, PSX was still selling to those unfortunate enough to waste more than 100 dollars on a console. The gaming library is also so big - another selling point. Dreamcast launched with excellent games. But PS2 was still a hype and arguements against Dreamcast were better graphics. When the PS2 released in October of 2000, It also broke sales records. They were also defective and they didn't ship as many as promised. And they became a b|tch to program on. Also their lauch games sucked. Only about one year into the game did they start releasing some good titles. Dispite that, It's a PS2. Sega stopped production of dreamcast before PS2 even got to the good games. That's how badly PS2 sells just baring Sony's name. One year after PS2 was the ONLY console people could buy that was supported, besides the PSOne which was even cheaper and sold even more because of that. Playstation at this point had alread overwritten Nintendo as a household name or meaning of any games. Then the good games started to come out and people started to dive even more into it. Although, there really weren't that many good games to be so exstatic about. About a handful of games released during the holiday season that are worth mentioning, but so many people already had the PS2 that they were top sellers. With no other console, how do you argue that.

Then the release of Microsoft Xbox. PS2s arguements about better graphics, used on the Dreamcast, had now sort of failed on the Xbox. This era changed the word Fanboy. Fanboys would swear that the PS2s graphics were better or similar than the Xboxs. Untrue. PS2 only has better particle power and that is it. Another, somewhat better, arguement was that it had more and/or better games. If you don't try the Xbox you can't say it isn't better. Other arguements, they begin to point out anything to get their point across here, were that the Xbox was too big and that the controller was too big, which it wasn't - people were just used to the standardization of the PSX controller. What does the hardware taking up a bit more space have to do with gaming. Also you need to buy your DVD support, again what does this have to do with gaming. PS2 fanboys were even reported to shy people away from the potential of an XBox and video game stores. Smell the desperation. Then there is the name Microsoft. I just let that sentence speak for itself. Fact is: launch game F-ing ruled. Despite bad reviews on some. One of my most favorite games, Munch's oddysee was had the worst rating. Then the Gamecube released and the arguements there were: Kiddy console, no DVD support justified by the 100 less price, it's purple, not much developer support. The developer support a little true because all the developers go where the money is even though it is a headache to program there. PS2. Fact: Gamecube's lauch games kicked ass.

I prefer Gamecube, it is a true gaming machine. I've been burned by Xbox. Dreamcast rocks. PS2 sucks.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: SilverTrine

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
an no bfg, your're rationalizing the degrees of "cheating" and that's BS. cheating is cheating, and to claim or assume one who has been caught cheating multiple time is now "not cheating" simply because they haven't gotten caught is nieve at best. however, this while line of thining it out of context for this thread anyways, so if you really want to continue on this path start another thread, i'll be happy to join in, but it doesn't belong here.

I hope ATi sues you for defamation, trust me 3dmark2003 is not detected by ATi drivers and is by Nvidia. We can say 100% that Nvidia cheats and ATi doesnt.

ATi detects halo though, defamation?!

 

[Genx87]

PS2 is the biggest disappointment for me. I'm disappointed at Sony from the engineering aspect more. If they are supposed to be so good at electronics, then why is this POS released. It has crap written all over it. Let's face it, if this console would have been Sony's first, it would have died just as the dreamcast, unfortunately, did. Sony is living off of reputation. They don't need to try anymore, they can just release something and people will jump at it. Fact is Sony is one of the luckiest son's of Bs anyone could be. They came in just at the right time. Let me recap.


In the console market people really dont give a rats ass about what the internals of the console look like compared to the rest. That is a PC enthusiast market phenom. Games are what sells consoles and Sony has the majority of the games compared to the other two. N64 was a total flop and the Saturn was deemed too hard to program for and thus lost a lot of support from devs.

DC was ok but I never found it as amazing as some people who like underdogs did. xBox is for the most part a total flop outside of the United States. And the GC again fails to sell to the majority of the consumers and instead seems to focus on young children.

 

[VIAN]

In the console market people really dont give a rats ass about what the internals of the console look like compared to the rest. That is a PC enthusiast market phenom. Games are what sells consoles and Sony has the majority of the games compared to the other two. N64 was a total flop and the Saturn was deemed too hard to program for and thus lost a lot of support from devs.

DC was ok but I never found it as amazing as some people who like underdogs did. xBox is for the most part a total flop outside of the United States. And the GC again fails to sell to the majority of the consumers and instead seems to focus on young children.

Not talking about internals here. Games and graphics. N64 was not a flop. Saturn kicked ass in Japan. PS2 is even harder to program for BTW. Dreamcast ruled. It doesn't focus on young children, it is a great system.

 

[BFG10K]

Again I will remind you that I never had a problem with this back when PVR was doing it with virtually every app

I remember after you did your Kyro2 review you were posting about a plethora of issues you had suffered with it, including a raft of unsolvable ones.

and you didn't seem to have a problem with it then either.

I didn't know about their practices until you recently told me about them. Now it makes little difference and it's not even worth discussing as the Kyro 2 is long out of the spot-light.

I certainly jumped over XGI for what I consider worse practices than nVidia, and that's both very recent and relevant.

When did I say anything like they are performing optimizations that couldn't otherwise exist?

You didn't. However you admitted that they were performing application detection which is what I was referring to.

Now FM is saying the pixel shader test isn't valid, so what's going on there?

Not sure. Maybe they can't break nVidia's pixel shader cheating in a non-trivial way so as not to affect the other vendors i.e if the other vendors all drop then it looks like they were all cheating when in reality it's caused by non-trivial code changes.

In any case we've already established beyond reasonable doubt that nVidia is detecting many more applications that just 3DMark so this cheating isn't a special case by any means.

Which vendors? Point me to a vendor that comes close to rendering 3DM2K3 correctly with any of the builds besides ATi or nVidia.

I can't get to the site at the moment but IIRC the only vendor FutureMark complained about not matching the reference image was S3 but they said that they didn't appear to be cheating. Presumably that means Matrox is matching the PS 1.x output because they obviously can't do the PS 2.0 one.

In any case the hardware physically not being able to render a test too advanced for it doesn't imply it's cheating. The issue is how the drivers react to trivial code changes, regardless of the hardware they're driving.

Agreed, and I listed that as one of their problems too

If they're detecting the game then one must ask "what the heck is going on?"

 

[BenSkywalker]

I remember after you did your Kyro2 review you were posting about a plethora of issues you had suffered with it, including a raft of unsolvable ones.

That's true, their drivers at the time were almost as bad as ATi's were at that time(both of them were considerably worse then 3dfx and nV). The per app tricks they used fixed the overwhelming majority of issues however(there were loads of compatibility issues with TBR).

I certainly jumped over XGI for what I consider worse practices than nVidia, and that's both very recent and relevant.

If they turn out to be cheats. From what I have seen it is fully possible they are just very, very bad drivers(although they could be cheats).

Not sure. Maybe they can't break nVidia's pixel shader cheating in a non-trivial way so as not to affect the other vendors i.e if the other vendors all drop then it looks like they were all cheating when in reality it's caused by non-trivial code changes.

But this is the crucial point. If FM was stopping nVidia's optimizations due to app detection it would have broken all of them, not half of them. FM didn't work around app detection, they reordered instructions to break nV's API wide optimizations.

Maybe they can't break nVidia's pixel shader cheating in a non-trivial way so as not to affect the other vendors i.e if the other vendors all drop then it looks like they were all cheating when in reality it's caused by non-trivial code changes.

If ATi's scores drop then they are clearly cheating, even if FM rewrites the entire bench so it only run on PS3.0 native parts, ATi is cheating if FM patches the app that way using your current standards. 'Non trivial code changes' depends greatly on what you consider non trivial. Take away SSE optimizations be reordering instructions for the P4 and see how 'trivial' Intel thinks it is

In any case we've already established beyond reasonable doubt that nVidia is detecting many more applications that just 3DMark so this cheating isn't a special case by any means.

Nothing logical has ever linked app detection in general with cheating in specific either, you forgot to mention that.

I can't get to the site at the moment but IIRC the only vendor FutureMark complained about not matching the reference image was S3 but they said that they didn't appear to be cheating. Presumably that means Matrox is matching the PS 1.x output because they obviously can't do the PS 2.0 one.

In other words noone can render the test properly besides ATi and nVidia.

If they're detecting the game then one must ask "what the heck is going on?"

I'm not sure, but they aren't 'cheating' in a game that doesn't get benched for certain. BTW- The MOH:AA detection isn't even hidden, it's easily found in the registry.

Genx87

Games are what sells consoles and Sony has the majority of the games compared to the other two.

Unfortunately extremely bad games sell consoles all too frequently. The Matrix on the PS2 looks like it will outsell Beyond Good&Evil and Prince of Persia(both stellar games) on all the consoles all totalled together. Sony certainly doesn't dominate because they have a lot of great games, I'd say it's a stretch to say they had a comparable number of good games compared to the Cube or the Box(less great games for certain). Three Cubes, two XBoxes, two GBA SPs, two GBAs and one PS2 for next gen systems in my house for reference.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: VIAN

I'm going to have to agree that PS2 is a piece of crap, even Dreamcast outdoes it more often than not.

Check this out.

Here is an article posted in a forum. I can't find the original article right now, but it said the exact same thing.

PS2 is the biggest disappointment for me. I'm disappointed at Sony from the engineering aspect more. If they are supposed to be so good at electronics, then why is this POS released. It has crap written all over it. Let's face it, if this console would have been Sony's first, it would have died just as the dreamcast, unfortunately, did. Sony is living off of reputation. They don't need to try anymore, they can just release something and people will jump at it. Fact is Sony is one of the luckiest son's of Bs anyone could be. They came in just at the right time. Let me recap.

1995-1996 console release: Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation, Nintendo 64

Technically speaking, Sony is the worst performer out of all the consoles. Sega made a big mistake launching their console early because the lauch games weren't finished yet and it was such a silent launch too. Then Sony released their console with games. People went for Sony's machine because it had games. In 1996 Ninendo also released its console with very few titles and distant releases. People in Japan bought it and then sold it after no more games were available. Sony had games more games than both conoles and a price better than the Saturn. Then came FF:VII. This boosted the console's sales and sold very well, breaking records. This was the game that pretty-much bought Sony's reputation. Sony was the one to succeed here. In Japan, people were all into the Saturn. Sony wasn't very big in Japan. Neither is Square. Weird huh. During this time, Nintendo was also dubbed as a kiddy console, releasing only fun games instead of scary mature games.

. This paved the way for Sony's success with the PS2.

1999-2001 console release: Sega Dreamcast, Sony Playstation 2, Microsoft Xbox, Nintendo Gamecube.

Sega Dreamcast wowed everyone away with its insane graphics. They are still great. I would rather look at Dreamcast then PS2. Some games such as Soul Caliber can never be touch by the PS2 in the graphics department. Dreamcast broke record sales. Although, PSX was still selling to those unfortunate enough to waste more than 100 dollars on a console. The gaming library is also so big - another selling point. Dreamcast launched with excellent games. But PS2 was still a hype and arguements against Dreamcast were better graphics. When the PS2 released in October of 2000, It also broke sales records. They were also defective and they didn't ship as many as promised. And they became a b|tch to program on. Also their lauch games sucked. Only about one year into the game did they start releasing some good titles. Dispite that, It's a PS2. Sega stopped production of dreamcast before PS2 even got to the good games. That's how badly PS2 sells just baring Sony's name. One year after PS2 was the ONLY console people could buy that was supported, besides the PSOne which was even cheaper and sold even more because of that. Playstation at this point had alread overwritten Nintendo as a household name or meaning of any games. Then the good games started to come out and people started to dive even more into it. Although, there really weren't that many good games to be so exstatic about. About a handful of games released during the holiday season that are worth mentioning, but so many people already had the PS2 that they were top sellers. With no other console, how do you argue that.

Then the release of Microsoft Xbox. PS2s arguements about better graphics, used on the Dreamcast, had now sort of failed on the Xbox. This era changed the word Fanboy. Fanboys would swear that the PS2s graphics were better or similar than the Xboxs. Untrue. PS2 only has better particle power and that is it. Another, somewhat better, arguement was that it had more and/or better games. If you don't try the Xbox you can't say it isn't better. Other arguements, they begin to point out anything to get their point across here, were that the Xbox was too big and that the controller was too big, which it wasn't - people were just used to the standardization of the PSX controller. What does the hardware taking up a bit more space have to do with gaming. Also you need to buy your DVD support, again what does this have to do with gaming. PS2 fanboys were even reported to shy people away from the potential of an XBox and video game stores. Smell the desperation. Then there is the name Microsoft. I just let that sentence speak for itself. Fact is: launch game F-ing ruled. Despite bad reviews on some. One of my most favorite games, Munch's oddysee was had the worst rating. Then the Gamecube released and the arguements there were: Kiddy console, no DVD support justified by the 100 less price, it's purple, not much developer support. The developer support a little true because all the developers go where the money is even though it is a headache to program there. PS2. Fact: Gamecube's lauch games kicked ass.

I prefer Gamecube, it is a true gaming machine. I've been burned by Xbox. Dreamcast rocks. PS2 sucks.

I held off from getting a PS2 until about 2 weeks ago, and I am not impressed at all. I already have the other two consoles and I really expected some good Sega titles on the Xbox but aside from the few titles they got in the beginning nothing has materialized. I basically bought the system for Shemue II (which I also have on DC), and for Panzer Dragoon Orta which I knew was coming out on it. Today I sit here buying mostly GC titles and loving what they have. The truth is though, that nothing this generation has impressed me like the Dreamcast. I know that GC has some nice titles, but honestly they are few and far between compared to how the DC put out an awesome title every few weeks.


I knew a friend that I lent my DC to, and they went out and bought a PS2 because of the hype and DVD player. This was 4 months after launch in March, and when we went out to look for decent game to play there were none whatsoever. When I called them a few days later and heard the sounds of Crazy Taxi in the background. PS2 didn't have a game that could be considered a compelling game until the summer following its launch with GT3.

So the people that paid $800 for the piece of junk on Ebay had to wait an entire to get a decent game for it, while we DC owners were living it up with Crazy Taxi, Shenmue, Sonic Adventure, Skies of Arcadia, Grandia II, Resdient Evil: Code Veronica, D-2, Soul Calibur, DOA2, Metropolis Street Racer, Seaman, Samba de Amigo, Chu-Chu Rocket, Jet Grind Radio, Ecco the Dolphin, all the awesome Sega Sports games, Phantasy Star Online, Virtua Tennis, Virtua Striker, and a few more that I forgot about about. Keep in mind that every game listed above was at the very least a really good game. Most of them were just flat out awesome games. I can't remember a system that came out with so many awesome games in such a short period of time. (I know the NES has more awesome titles but they came out over a period of 7 years). The Dreamcast was just a quality system in every way. Some of the stuff that the little system put on the screen amazes me to this day.

By comparison the PS2 has a few good games that have come out over the past 3 years, but nothing at all compared to the number of completely orginal games that were on the Dreamcast. Even the games with the best graphics on PS2 have texture shimmering at best, and at worst are badly aliased. I have bought a library of the best PS2 games out there and I still haven't gotten into it yet. I think that there are very few games of the quality that will actually draw you out from your world and immerse you in the game. The Dreamcast had a lot of those. In recent times only a handful of games qualify for that. Those games IMHO are: Viewtiful Joe, Metroid Prime, Zelda: Wind Waker, Beyond Good and Evil, Shenmue II, ICO. Of those games all but two are Gamecube games (okay BG&E is multiplatform). The Dreamcast just had a ton of games that were just so involving to the point that I didn't ever want to put the controller down. Nowadays it's pretty hard to find a game like that.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I remember after you did your Kyro2 review you were posting about a plethora of issues you had suffered with it, including a raft of unsolvable ones.

That's true, their drivers at the time were almost as bad as ATi's were at that time(both of them were considerably worse then 3dfx and nV). The per app tricks they used fixed the overwhelming majority of issues however(there were loads of compatibility issues with TBR).

I certainly jumped over XGI for what I consider worse practices than nVidia, and that's both very recent and relevant.

If they turn out to be cheats. From what I have seen it is fully possible they are just very, very bad drivers(although they could be cheats).

Not sure. Maybe they can't break nVidia's pixel shader cheating in a non-trivial way so as not to affect the other vendors i.e if the other vendors all drop then it looks like they were all cheating when in reality it's caused by non-trivial code changes.

But this is the crucial point. If FM was stopping nVidia's optimizations due to app detection it would have broken all of them, not half of them. FM didn't work around app detection, they reordered instructions to break nV's API wide optimizations.

Maybe they can't break nVidia's pixel shader cheating in a non-trivial way so as not to affect the other vendors i.e if the other vendors all drop then it looks like they were all cheating when in reality it's caused by non-trivial code changes.

If ATi's scores drop then they are clearly cheating, even if FM rewrites the entire bench so it only run on PS3.0 native parts, ATi is cheating if FM patches the app that way using your current standards. 'Non trivial code changes' depends greatly on what you consider non trivial. Take away SSE optimizations be reordering instructions for the P4 and see how 'trivial' Intel thinks it is

In any case we've already established beyond reasonable doubt that nVidia is detecting many more applications that just 3DMark so this cheating isn't a special case by any means.

Nothing logical has ever linked app detection in general with cheating in specific either, you forgot to mention that.

I can't get to the site at the moment but IIRC the only vendor FutureMark complained about not matching the reference image was S3 but they said that they didn't appear to be cheating. Presumably that means Matrox is matching the PS 1.x output because they obviously can't do the PS 2.0 one.

In other words noone can render the test properly besides ATi and nVidia.

If they're detecting the game then one must ask "what the heck is going on?"

I'm not sure, but they aren't 'cheating' in a game that doesn't get benched for certain. BTW- The MOH:AA detection isn't even hidden, it's easily found in the registry.

Genx87

Games are what sells consoles and Sony has the majority of the games compared to the other two.

Unfortunately extremely bad games sell consoles all too frequently. The Matrix on the PS2 looks like it will outsell Beyond Good&Evil and Prince of Persia(both stellar games) on all the consoles all totalled together. Sony certainly doesn't dominate because they have a lot of great games, I'd say it's a stretch to say they had a comparable number of good games compared to the Cube or the Box(less great games for certain). Three Cubes, two XBoxes, two GBA SPs, two GBAs and one PS2 for next gen systems in my house for reference.

Wow you have a lot of systems. Do you have a Dreamcast? I'm telling you that DC has more just plain awesome games out there during its short life than all three surviving current generation consoles have. I can tell that you have good taste in games by the games you mentioned in your post and by the system counts you have. Trust me, DC just has a lot of stellar titles. One thing I guess is that by owning a GC you have access to lot of DC ports. Even PS2 has a lot of DC ports but they consistently perform badly on PS2 just because the two systems are very different in hardware philosophy.

 

[VIAN]

I held off from getting a PS2 until about 2 weeks ago, and I am not impressed at all. I already have the other two consoles and I really expected some good Sega titles on the Xbox but aside from the few titles they got in the beginning nothing has materialized. I basically bought the system for Shemue II (which I also have on DC), and for Panzer Dragoon Orta which I knew was coming out on it. Today I sit here buying mostly GC titles and loving what they have. The truth is though, that nothing this generation has impressed me like the Dreamcast. I know that GC has some nice titles, but honestly they are few and far between compared to how the DC put out an awesome title every few weeks.

Dude... you are my twin.

Dreamcast totally ruled. After it went under. I still played the crap out of Sonic and still today If I had space for it, I would still keep playing that same first level as well as some other levels that also ruled. I bought Xbox for Shenmue II, although, when I got to play it, the console broke down a little after Joy yelled at me because I wasn't staying at the apartment she recommend, having stayed with that chick master. Know how far along that is, anyone? Then I bought a Gamecube for Resident Evil. Later I got to play Luigi's Mansion, just to see how stupid it was. The game F-ing ruled to the extreme. I loved it. Too bad it was my friend's though. Then FINALLY, when PS2 dropped it's price to something more reasonable, I got it for Clock Tower III. I love the series. Tomb Raider was also a selling point. I have that too. The graphics really piss me off- they aren't defined. It feels like a bunch of optimizations were used that take away from the quality of the picture, but allow for more graphics to be used. In Tomb Raider I am stuck with these lasers, I have tried, you can't jump or crawl over them, so I guess I can't beat it. If it is something this annoying, then the game is just being way too retarded to put such a stupid obstacle. Anyway, my favorite living system remains the Gamecube. Great graphics, sleek design, controls great, great games. Nothing has impressed me as much as the Dreamcast did though. Great titles, although I did encounter some bugs. I feel like many consoles have bugs that stop you from finishing the games, except for the Dreamcast, and that thought just shyed me away from consoles and into the PC world even more. Everything is fixable there. The Dreamcast should have not perished, ignorant people ruin everything.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Wow you have a lot of systems. Do you have a Dreamcast?

Unfortunately no. I don't know how many times I've had one in my hand and either was talked out of picking it up, or decided against it.

One thing I guess is that by owning a GC you have access to lot of DC ports. Even PS2 has a lot of DC ports but they consistently perform badly on PS2 just because the two systems are very different in hardware philosophy.

This is one of the things that has kept me from getting a DC. I already own JSRF, ShenmueII, all of the current Sonics save Heroes(haven't picked it up quite yet- my oldest son is a big Sonic fan) and PGR. Still planning on adding SoA and PSO to that list at some point too. Out of the titles on DC that really have me interested, that list covers the biggest ones. Not only that, but I do prefer the Cube's and XBox S controller to DC's. If DC was still supported with new titles then I would certainly have one at this point.

The Dreamcast should have not perished, ignorant people ruin everything.

Unfortunately this was Sega's fault more then anything. They really, really screwed up with their previous three set top hardware units. The Saturn, 32X and SegaCD all failed to see a reasonable amount of support and an awful lot of people ended up pretty p!ssed off that Sega kept bailing out on their hardware and leaving them with a couple hundred dollar system and only one or two games worth playing on it. After you get burned three times by one company, it can put a damper on your support for them. It is a shame as the DC ended up being considerably better then any system in relative terms outside of the Genesis that Sega ever released by a decent margin, its just their previous three systems failing to have the support of even the Master System really left a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth.

 

[Crapgame]

Well here's my view in a nutshell...

I owned an MSI FX5900nu, it seemed really shy of what I expected.
No real problems but something was always nagging me about it, I wasnt 'happy'.
I kept on messing with it until I destroyed it, in destroying it I became less happy as I found I didnt like the way it was built.
(cheesy aluminum heat spreaders to cap chips should have died with K6-2/3's)

I was upset enough by this purchase to make a leap I swore to never ever do again.
My last ATI card was an R7500, boy did that card piss me off.

I bought the 9800pro, it was also shy of what I expected.
(with both cards and pretty much every 'huge advance' I seem to be less than impressed)
I got happy with it right away, no nagging feelings.
I messed with it only once, RAM sinks and a proper CPUgoneGPU cooler bolted on.
(I like the overall construction but the stock heatsink blows chunks)

I cant say either card rocked me in one direction or the other, one just made me happier.
I cant point to a game, a benchmark or a specific reason I just liked one better than the other.

Next card...

That will be a long time comming.
My next video card will coinside with me tossing everything I own in the closet.
PCI express and a new form factor will be next for me, I think if I'm lucky I might still save a drive or two but the rest will be junk.

 

[VIAN]

Yeah, I know about that. But they were still doing very well... until PS2 showed up.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Wow you have a lot of systems. Do you have a Dreamcast?

Unfortunately no. I don't know how many times I've had one in my hand and either was talked out of picking it up, or decided against it.

One thing I guess is that by owning a GC you have access to lot of DC ports. Even PS2 has a lot of DC ports but they consistently perform badly on PS2 just because the two systems are very different in hardware philosophy.

This is one of the things that has kept me from getting a DC. I already own JSRF, ShenmueII, all of the current Sonics save Heroes(haven't picked it up quite yet- my oldest son is a big Sonic fan) and PGR. Still planning on adding SoA and PSO to that list at some point too. Out of the titles on DC that really have me interested, that list covers the biggest ones. Not only that, but I do prefer the Cube's and XBox S controller to DC's. If DC was still supported with new titles then I would certainly have one at this point.

The Dreamcast should have not perished, ignorant people ruin everything.

Unfortunately this was Sega's fault more then anything. They really, really screwed up with their previous three set top hardware units. The Saturn, 32X and SegaCD all failed to see a reasonable amount of support and an awful lot of people ended up pretty p!ssed off that Sega kept bailing out on their hardware and leaving them with a couple hundred dollar system and only one or two games worth playing on it. After you get burned three times by one company, it can put a damper on your support for them. It is a shame as the DC ended up being considerably better then any system in relative terms outside of the Genesis that Sega ever released by a decent margin, its just their previous three systems failing to have the support of even the Master System really left a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth.

Trust me on this. You have to play Shenmue before you play Shenmue II. The reason why many Xbox owners of Shenmue II just didn't understand the game was because you have to play the first one (despite viewing the DVD cut scene disc). A DC is only $30 and Shenmue is only $10 at most, it is worth every penny to do that. Plus you can have fun with awesome games like Seaman, Samba de Amigo and a few others that were not ported over. It's a perfect buy at $30, especially when you have a couple of thousand dollars inversted in your video games.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: VIAN

I held off from getting a PS2 until about 2 weeks ago, and I am not impressed at all. I already have the other two consoles and I really expected some good Sega titles on the Xbox but aside from the few titles they got in the beginning nothing has materialized. I basically bought the system for Shemue II (which I also have on DC), and for Panzer Dragoon Orta which I knew was coming out on it. Today I sit here buying mostly GC titles and loving what they have. The truth is though, that nothing this generation has impressed me like the Dreamcast. I know that GC has some nice titles, but honestly they are few and far between compared to how the DC put out an awesome title every few weeks.

Dude... you are my twin.

Dreamcast totally ruled. After it went under. I still played the crap out of Sonic and still today If I had space for it, I would still keep playing that same first level as well as some other levels that also ruled. I bought Xbox for Shenmue II, although, when I got to play it, the console broke down a little after Joy yelled at me because I wasn't staying at the apartment she recommend, having stayed with that chick master. Know how far along that is, anyone? Then I bought a Gamecube for Resident Evil. Later I got to play Luigi's Mansion, just to see how stupid it was. The game F-ing ruled to the extreme. I loved it. Too bad it was my friend's though. Then FINALLY, when PS2 dropped it's price to something more reasonable, I got it for Clock Tower III. I love the series. Tomb Raider was also a selling point. I have that too. The graphics really piss me off- they aren't defined. It feels like a bunch of optimizations were used that take away from the quality of the picture, but allow for more graphics to be used. In Tomb Raider I am stuck with these lasers, I have tried, you can't jump or crawl over them, so I guess I can't beat it. If it is something this annoying, then the game is just being way too retarded to put such a stupid obstacle. Anyway, my favorite living system remains the Gamecube. Great graphics, sleek design, controls great, great games. Nothing has impressed me as much as the Dreamcast did though. Great titles, although I did encounter some bugs. I feel like many consoles have bugs that stop you from finishing the games, except for the Dreamcast, and that thought just shyed me away from consoles and into the PC world even more. Everything is fixable there. The Dreamcast should have not perished, ignorant people ruin everything.

I still play my Dreamcast, I just got an import version of Headhunter for it and I'm having fun with that. I still play Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure II. I play that first level of Sonic Adventure just to remember how awesome the Dreamcast when I first got it. When I first got it and loaded up Sonic Adventure, I was impressed beyond belief. I mean the colors were so vivid, and you could move the camera to view the sky, the controls were so intuitive. I play it today to remind of those days in late 2000/early 2001. Speed highway was an awesome level too that I play every once in a while.

I have between 50-60 games for all three current surviving consoles and I have finished only 3 of those games. Most of those games I have played only once or twice. With Dreamcast, I have about 25 games and I have finished about 9 of those and played another 5-6 extensively. The record just speaks out for itself.

I also bought an extra Dreamcast just when they were selling for $50 (I wish I bought 2 extras), and it is still sealed in the box. I say that I'll sell it when it gets a couple of hundread dollars on Ebay, but the truth is that I'll never sell it.


The more interesting about all this, was that I was never really even a Sega fan until DC. I was brought up in those stupid Nintendo vs. Sega days, where we all thought Sega sucked and Nintendo was everything. The Dreamcast honestly makes me have much more respect for Sega than even Nintendo. I mean Nintendo makes some excellent games, Sega innovates like no one else. What kind of company spends $90 million dollars to make a video game and a sequel? Who else would have come up with games like JGR, or Samba de Amigo, or Rez.

As for Shenmue II, well if you're at the part where Joy is telling you to stay at the guest house, then you haven't even really started the game IMO. There is so much to do to finish the game from where you are. On Dreamcast you'd still be on Disc 1. I hope you get your Xbox fixed, or you can find someone to sell you the DC import for cheap. Shenmue II was just amazing, it goes at a lot faster pace than Shenmue and it has tons of action. I still sometimes like the original a little better (this is like saying I like my left nut better than my right nut) because of how powerful the story was. The whole story with the flashbacks of Ryo's father, the way you meet a lot of new people, and the whole Nozomi thing just made it an experience that no other form of media could ever replicate. This is virtual reality basically. Shenmue II doesn't have you meeting as many people, but if you play it slowly you might find some secrets that make it just plain awesome. Shenmue II is definitely an evolution, and it fits more with the fact that he is after all away from home. I am dying for Shenmue III to come out, if I won the lottery today I would give Sega a couple of million to make Shenmue III (if that is enough to cover anything on a multi million dollar project).

I'm still trying to get the games I missed on Dreamcast, there are still so many good games for Dreamcast that I still don't have. I'm still looking for games for my Saturn. I would almost kill for Panzer Dragoon Saga. Also I got stupid 3rd party marcas for my Dreamcast, I am still looking for the orginal maracas. I just bought an extra VMU, and an extra controller for my Dreamcast last week, and I'll probably get some more before stores really stop carrying them.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Yeah, I know about that. But they were still doing very well... until PS2 showed up.

PS2 didn't even have to show up, the stupid hype showed up and killed everything. I mean people basically put off buying a Dreamcast almost a year before PS2 launched so they could hold out for a PS2. Then PS2 launched without a decent game for an entire year. They basically had a handful to supply, so the November 2000 launch was mostly a paper launch. They did all that to capitalize on the hype and generate some more hype with stories of $800 PS2s selling on Ebay. How could an average uninformed consumer buy a Dreamcast that Christmas season when the almighty PS2 was "out" and people were cutting off their left nut for one. So basically people left themselves without a decent game to play because they were waiting for PS2 to catch up. During those two years Dreamcast owners were playing some of the best games ever made. There were so many that there wasn't even time to play them all.

My friends with a PS2 were watching DVD movies on it with a stupid video game controller, and that was it. For the $300 they paid in March 2001, they could have bought 2 real DVD players with actual remotes and far better picture quality than the PS2. The only game they have for it now was Simpson's Hit and Run - a substandard Crazy Taxi Knockoff (and GTA3 on my recomendation).

 

[Genx87]

Not talking about internals here. Games and graphics. N64 was not a flop. Saturn kicked ass in Japan. PS2 is even harder to program for BTW. Dreamcast ruled. It doesn't focus on young children, it is a great system.

Compared to what it was expected to do it was a total flop. Nintendo basically owned the market until then. And Sony, with a brand new model which offered worse graphics totall dominated the N64.
Saturn may have kicked ass in Japan but I dont know a single person who owned one.

PS2 may have been harder to program for but it was riding the wave of the PS1 and had backwards compatibility with PS1 games. Devs were willing to obviously wait until the tools were ready for the PS2.

 

[SilverTrine]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: SilverTrine

I hope ATi sues you for defamation, trust me 3dmark2003 is not detected by ATi drivers and is by Nvidia. We can say 100% that Nvidia cheats and ATi doesnt.

lmao....fanboy much?

Truth hurts doesnt it sparky. Nvidia is a cheating dog of a company who continues to cheat to this very day. ATi does not cheat at all this is verfied by 3dmark2003.
I'm not into debating morons you either accept reality or you dont, I'm not going to be like BFG and spend hours point for pointing trolls when the above is 100% truth.

 

[BFG10K]

The per app tricks they used fixed the overwhelming majority of issues however(there were loads of compatibility issues with TBR).

And what about those apps that don't have application detection? Who wants to support a vendor that is required to constantly hard-code their drivers just so games work? A vendor like that is flaky at best.

If they turn out to be cheats.

If they turn out to be cheats? Lets see, horrendous and unacceptable image quality that vanishes when the application strings are renamed and also vanishes when screenshots are taken.

And you still have difficulty accepting that's a cheat? Of course you do, because if you accepted it was a cheat you'd also have to accept that nVidia is cheating. This is exactly why you condone PowerVR's actions too.

From what I have seen it is fully possible they are just very, very bad drivers(although they could be cheats).

Impossible.

But this is the crucial point. If FM was stopping nVidia's optimizations due to app detection it would have broken all of them, not half of them.

Unless they couldn't stop the detection the pixel shaders used without making significant changes. Remember, nVidia were found to have been detecting 3DMark in a wide variety of ways (application string, shader detection, splash screen detection, etc). nVidia is probably detecting the pixel shaders so well that FutureMark would actually have to fundamentally change them to stop nVidia's detection and this of course would impact on all the vendors too.

Why are you even arguing with me? Perez admitted nVidia were hard-coding their drivers around 3DMark for heaven's sake. So stop trying to turn this into another anti-nVidia conspiracy spearheaded by FutureMark. nVidia is at fault here, not FutureMark.

Once again you're taking hard evidence against nVidia and throwing it out the window, and this is something you always do. No matter what the evidence and who says it, if it's anti-nVidia it must be wrong in some way.

ATi is cheating if FM patches the app that way using your current standards.

Not at all. ATi is cheating if their scores drop a a result of trivial changes because it suggests they are using application detection. Otherwise using your logic FutureMark could create 3DMark05 and we shouldn't expect the scores to go down and if they did, they'd be "cheating". Clearly that isn't the case.

Nothing logical has ever linked app detection in general with cheating in specific either, you forgot to mention that.

Then start by explaining FiringSquad's and HardOCP's custom benchmark results which saw nVidia taking a nose-dive in games they had previously dominated.

In other words noone can render the test properly besides ATi and nVidia.

And it makes no difference. If they don't have the physical ability to run the test that doesn't imply they're cheating, anymore than nVidia is cheating when I request 16x AF in games but don't get it.

 

[kylebisme]

another one to add to the list; there is no way to force tripple buffering in opengl with the forceware drivers.

 

[BenSkywalker]

And what about those apps that don't have application detection? Who wants to support a vendor that is required to constantly hard-code their drivers just so games work? A vendor like that is flaky at best.

And what supports that assertion?

And you still have difficulty accepting that's a cheat? Of course you do, because if you accepted it was a cheat you'd also have to accept that nVidia is cheating. This is exactly why you condone PowerVR's actions too.

I was condoning these actions three years ago on the off chance that someday nVidia might do something comparable? You are falling into the comical range again here.

nVidia is probably detecting the pixel shaders so well that FutureMark would actually have to fundamentally change them to stop nVidia's detection and this of course would impact on all the vendors too.

You mean catching the particular string of code used for the pixel shaders and reordering that for optimal execution on their architecthure?! Exactly what I've been saying they have been doing and exactly what nVidia stated they were doing with their compilers. So now you are supporting the position that everything nVidia is doing it perfectly legit, make up your mind.

Perez admitted nVidia were hard-coding their drivers around 3DMark for heaven's sake.

No, he didn't. He didn't do anything remotely close to that. You simply have a very, very hard time comprehending what is said without placing your radical spin on it. As far as your concerned, I was supporting, at the time, nVidia's biggest threat in the 3D market because I was so biased in their favor and had the psychic ability to forsee that they would face a greater challenge in the future that would need me not to be a hypocrite. I pulled this off years in advance, I tell you, I should have one the PowerBall long ago if I was that good at seeing the future.

Not at all. ATi is cheating if their scores drop a a result of trivial changes because it suggests they are using application detection. Otherwise using your logic FutureMark could create 3DMark05 and we shouldn't expect the scores to go down and if they did, they'd be "cheating". Clearly that isn't the case.

Do you realize how you sound? nVidia is obviously cheating because trivial changes impact their score but the trivial changes can't impact the score because they cheat so well. Can you at the very least pick one position for your conspiracy theories per post? I can understand you are forced into a position of having to change things around a lot, that is part of the burden of being a flag waver of conspiracy theories, but can you at least pick one story and stick with it for each individual post?

Then start by explaining FiringSquad's and HardOCP's custom benchmark results which saw nVidia taking a nose-dive in games they had previously dominated.

Almost everyone uses custom benches now, I'm not seeing your point with this. Particularly considering we are discussing 3DM2K3 here, stick to the subject and see the gaping holes in your conspiracy theory.

And it makes no difference. If they don't have the physical ability to run the test that doesn't imply they're cheating, anymore than nVidia is cheating when I request 16x AF in games but don't get it.

This was a trap I expected you would jump into which you did. Is XGI cheating or not? You have already quoted FM saying that S3 didn't render the test properly, and in this thread you have talked repeatedly about XGI's horrendous cheating, so which is it? We have four board vendors with a 3DM2K3 level feature set now, two of them run it properly. Either you are taking back your comments about XGI, calling FM liars about S3, or you are agreeing with my point about FM.

I noticed you failed to respond to the compiler points so I know now that you realize exactly what is going on, that explains why you need to try and swap back and forth between multiple positions and try to draw other benches in to this instead of sticking to the topic at hand. My three year ago prediction that nVidia was going to be doing a cheat that could be beaten by trivial changes but not be beaten by trivial changes so I supported their biggest threat bias clearly shows how objectively you are looking at this

I know you don't believe a tenth of what you are posting about the 'cheats', why bother going through the trouble?

 

[reever]

You mean catching the particular string of code used for the pixel shaders and reordering that for optimal execution on their architecthure?! Exactly what I've been saying they have been doing and exactly what nVidia stated they were doing with their compilers.

Nvidia also stated that their drivers were intelligently culling the 3dmark scene as to not render what isn't being seen, surely if you're smart enough to not believe this without some proof, you would be smart enough to not believe everything nvidia says about the pixel shader test

 

[kylebisme]

..and more relevently, packing in hand tuned replacement shaders.