nVidia's Problems

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chsh1ca

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2003
1,179
0
0
I think a big issue about the ATI vs NVidia cheating is that when you consider it, ATI doesn't NEED to cheat. The R9700Pro basically came along and kicked the crap out of the existing GF4s, and still managed to stay ahead of the first FX line. NVidia was in a position where they practically HAD to inflate their benchmark numbers because people were starting to realise that the GF4s were by and large still faster than the FXs, which were 6 months late. If they hadn't done any benchmark inflation, think of the performance numbers they'd have been getting. How many people criticized the Volari for offering that kind of performance?

I imagine that thinking is partially why ATI cheated with Quake III, though they seem to care much less about continually having the performance crown. Either way, I think people are overlooking the fact that basically a GeForce 2 Ti performs on par with a GeForce FX5200 in a lot of still played titles. The entire FX line was a step backward for NVidia. No wonder ATI felt safe in going to longer product cycle.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
the cloaking device in halo is screwed up on nvidia hardware, it has always worked just fine for ati's dx9 cards. as for KotOR, bioware has always been crappy at supporting ati and it doesn't seem like that is going to change no matter what happens.

Since you have halo, rename the .exe and post some benchies for me with your ATi card, fanboi.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
the cloaking device looks the same on ati's dx9 hardware as it does on the xbox

I've owned both a XBox and Halo for closing in on three years now, you'll have to try something else there. The cloaking device on ATi's hardware doesn't look remotely close to anything like the XBox.

lol, i got an xbox with halo the christmas it came out as well so you'll have to forfit that argument.

seriously, something is wrong with your xbox, your drivers or your eyes becuase bungie obviously wanted it to look like this or they woudln't have put the pic on their site, and that is how it looks on both the xbox and ati's dx9 cards as well.


also again i ask; what is this "anti cheat application I have to get around their screw up" you mention?

That isnt what it looks like on the xbox, thats a generic reflection shader.
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,604
15
81
This is just like AMD+Intel. Both Nvidia and ATI have had some great cards e.g My geforce 2 MX400 was the best card ive owned as it could run games like unreal 2//gta:vice city etc fine on medium//low setting which sure as heck isnt bad for an old out of date card that aint worth £5 if my old comp had more than 128 mb ram then it woulda run gta 100% lag free but it didnt so too bad for it .
I bought a 9800 PRO last week to replace the 5200 FX which was a little improvement over the geforce 2 tbh i think the 1 gig of ram was what made the difference in games over my old comp cuz the 5200 wasent intended for high spec games and it basically wasent very good spose its good at what its designed for (i was surprised that the GF 4TI4400 outperformed it as its supposed to be older). This 9800 PRO is excellent!! c&c generals runs fast in the best settings so does vice city and well all the games ive tried have either run the same as before or have run better with higher settings. So ATI have had a huge sucess with this card.
The reasons i bought an ATI card over nvidia was that A:many people reccomend it as the best price//performance card and B:the card is red hehe. I dont see many people reccomending a 5900 card on forums or anywhere for that matter so at this point in time ATI are probably doing better. But Nvidia's Geforce series were excellent so in a years time it might be ATI's cards are not the cards of choice and nvidia are once again the best for price//performance who knows? either way theyre both good companies.
My 2 cents
 

SilverTrine

Senior member
May 27, 2003
312
0
0
Originally posted by: Insomniak
Originally posted by: SilverTrine
Truth hurts doesnt it sparky. Nvidia is a cheating dog of a company who continues to cheat to this very day. ATi does not cheat at all this is verfied by 3dmark2003.
I'm not into debating morons you either accept reality or you dont, I'm not going to be like BFG and spend hours point for pointing trolls when the above is 100% truth.


lmao.....fanboy much?

Total idiot much? Hope you enjoy being lied to, I know Nvidia likes the extra money they're making from lying.

Repeated for the fanboys: Nvidia is the ONLY major GPU maker that is currently cheating in 3dmark2003, this is 169% fact. If you ignore this fact you have no self respect and may as well let Nvidia rape you.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
Who knows the developers decision for making the cloaks different. Although, Nvidia's makes more sense. ATI's is very visible.
 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
0
0
Originally posted by: SilverTrine
Originally posted by: Insomniak
Originally posted by: SilverTrine
Truth hurts doesnt it sparky. Nvidia is a cheating dog of a company who continues to cheat to this very day. ATi does not cheat at all this is verfied by 3dmark2003.
I'm not into debating morons you either accept reality or you dont, I'm not going to be like BFG and spend hours point for pointing trolls when the above is 100% truth.


lmao.....fanboy much?

Total idiot much? Hope you enjoy being lied to, I know Nvidia likes the extra money they're making from lying.

Repeated for the fanboys: Nvidia is the ONLY major GPU maker that is currently cheating in 3dmark2003, this is 169% fact. If you ignore this fact you have no self respect and may as well let Nvidia rape you.


lmao.....fanboy much?

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
the cloaking device in halo is screwed up on nvidia hardware, it has always worked just fine for ati's dx9 cards. as for KotOR, bioware has always been crappy at supporting ati and it doesn't seem like that is going to change no matter what happens.

Since you have halo, rename the .exe and post some benchies for me with your ATi card, fanboi.

it's the same either way, moron.

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
the cloaking device looks the same on ati's dx9 hardware as it does on the xbox

I've owned both a XBox and Halo for closing in on three years now, you'll have to try something else there. The cloaking device on ATi's hardware doesn't look remotely close to anything like the XBox.

lol, i got an xbox with halo the christmas it came out as well so you'll have to forfit that argument.

seriously, something is wrong with your xbox, your drivers or your eyes becuase bungie obviously wanted it to look like this or they woudln't have put the pic on their site, and that is how it looks on both the xbox and ati's dx9 cards as well.


also again i ask; what is this "anti cheat application I have to get around their screw up" you mention?

That isnt what it looks like on the xbox, thats a generic reflection shader.


it is obviously not "a generic reflection shader" as it isn't reflecting anything!

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: VIAN
Who knows the developers decision for making the cloaks different. Although, Nvidia's makes more sense. ATI's is very visible.

i wouldn't say it makes more sense, it looks goofy and dated as it is basicly the same effect you see with the invisablity in the counter-strike warcraft3 mod, opposed to the fancy preditor looking effect. but i looked on the gearboxsoftware forums last night and i found that you can use 3danalyse to change the device id on an fx card and trick halo into think it is a radeon, at which point the cloaking looks correct. however, people were reporting that the mod makes the text flicker; so apparently gearbox just couldn't figure out a way to get it to work right on nvidia hardware but figured they should at least give the proper effect to people who have cards that can run it without issue.

thread
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: VIAN
Who knows the developers decision for making the cloaks different. Although, Nvidia's makes more sense. ATI's is very visible.

i wouldn't say it makes more sense, it looks goofy and dated as it is basicly the same effect you see with the invisablity in the counter-strike warcraft3 mod, opposed to the fancy preditor looking effect. but i looked on the gearboxsoftware forums last night and i found that you can use 3danalyse to change the device id on an fx card and trick halo into think it is a radeon, at which point the cloaking looks correct. however, people were reporting that the mod makes the text flicker; so apparently gearbox just couldn't figure out a way to get it to work right on nvidia hardware but figured they should at least give the proper effect to people who have cards that can run it without issue.

thread

why do people refer to it as the "predator" effect? it simply makes it shiny, not providing any kind of camoflage at all. looks like a shield to me, not any type of stealth.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
it isn't shine man, it is refraction; and that is the concept behind the camo effect in predator. also, it makes people blend into their surroundings a lot more than some bright red or blue armor, so it is by all means a forum of camouflage.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
hmm.. one that sticks out like a sore thumb <scratched head>.

do you honestly find it hard to see?
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
the cloaking device in halo is screwed up on nvidia hardware, it has always worked just fine for ati's dx9 cards. as for KotOR, bioware has always been crappy at supporting ati and it doesn't seem like that is going to change no matter what happens.

Since you have halo, rename the .exe and post some benchies for me with your ATi card, fanboi.

it's the same either way, moron.

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
the cloaking device looks the same on ati's dx9 hardware as it does on the xbox

I've owned both a XBox and Halo for closing in on three years now, you'll have to try something else there. The cloaking device on ATi's hardware doesn't look remotely close to anything like the XBox.

lol, i got an xbox with halo the christmas it came out as well so you'll have to forfit that argument.

seriously, something is wrong with your xbox, your drivers or your eyes becuase bungie obviously wanted it to look like this or they woudln't have put the pic on their site, and that is how it looks on both the xbox and ati's dx9 cards as well.


also again i ask; what is this "anti cheat application I have to get around their screw up" you mention?

That isnt what it looks like on the xbox, thats a generic reflection shader.


it is obviously not "a generic reflection shader" as it isn't reflecting anything!

In that screenshot it is reflecting not refracting, like it does with Nv/Xbox.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
it is refracting man, like it does on the xbox. on nv hardware it just shows transparincy without refraction. but in that screenshot, which i should point out again is an offical shot from bungie on their own website, it is very much is refracting as can be clearly seen in the torso area were the path goes up and between the two trees.


Originally posted by: CaiNaM
hmm.. one that sticks out like a sore thumb <scratched head>.

do you honestly find it hard to see?

sure, when you are up close it sticks out liike a sore tumb becuase it is easy to see the warping of the detail in the refraction, but at more of a distance it becomes increasingly harder to spot.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
App specific optimizations they clearly state.
They state they are optimizing their drivers for applications (probably via profiling). They do not state anywhere that they are detecting any of those applications.

If their optimizations work without requiring detection or prior knowledge then they aren't cheats.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
it is refracting man, like it does on the xbox. on nv hardware it just shows transparincy without refraction. but in that screenshot, which i should point out again is an offical shot from bungie on their own website, it is very much is refracting as can be clearly seen in the torso area were the path goes up and between the two trees.


Originally posted by: CaiNaM
hmm.. one that sticks out like a sore thumb <scratched head>.

do you honestly find it hard to see?

sure, when you are up close it sticks out liike a sore tumb becuase it is easy to see the warping of the detail in the refraction, but at more of a distance it becomes increasingly harder to spot.

ok, i was previously incorrect.. sort of heh. thanks.

after taking the time to look for myself, i gotta side with the ati camp on this one.. on the nv isn't an 'effect':

nv shot 1
nv shot 2

on the ati, looks alot better in reality than in bungee's screenshot:

ati shot 1
ati shot 2

after looking at it "in action" rather than a screenshot, regardless of whose "fault" it is, the ati is true to the effect imo, the nv is not.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
TheSnowman

lol, i got an xbox with halo the christmas it came out as well so you'll have to forfit that argument.

I'm going to have to say you are completely full of sh!t on this one.

seriously, something is wrong with your xbox, your drivers or your eyes becuase bungie obviously wanted it to look like this or they woudln't have put the pic on their site, and that is how it looks on both the xbox and ati's dx9 cards as well.

Bungie had nothing to do with the ATi effect, that was GearBox, it looks absolutely nothing like the effect on the XBox. Something wrong with the drivers for my XBox? Yeah, you've spent a lot of time with the Box.

also again i ask; what is this "anti cheat application I have to get around their screw up" you mention?

3DAnalyzer.

but in that screenshot, which i should point out again is an offical shot from bungie on their own website

Render!=Screenshot

CaiNaM

after taking the time to look for myself, i gotta side with the ati camp on this one.. on the nv isn't an 'effect':

You can see the opponent in the first nV screenshot right? He is a red Master Chief standing slightly to the right of where the gun is aiming(the outside of the upper right cross hair is in his chin).
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
but in that screenshot, which i should point out again is an offical shot from bungie on their own website
heh.. wasn't my quote

You can see the opponent in the first nV screenshot right? He is a red Master Chief standing slightly to the right of where the gun is aiming(the outside of the upper right cross hair is in his chin).

yes, my point wasn't that i couldn't see him.. rather with nv it's just a "fade", rather then a "cool" effect (and xbox doesn't look like that either).

the other point was the screenshot on bungie's website everyone keeps referring is not what you see the ati render (almost looks like a mirror, or reflected light as opposed to refracted) when playing, hence the screenshots i posted. going simply by that bungie screenshot (which i still maintain is not "right"), I was of the belief that ati was rendering "incorrectly". however taking the time to check it out, it looks much different in actual use. in those screenshots, ati's method looks correct, and more like halo on xobx, while nividia's "transparency/fade" method looks incorrect.
 

Chumster

Senior member
Apr 29, 2001
496
0
0
Originally posted by: SilverTrine
Repeated for the fanboys: Nvidia is the ONLY major GPU maker that is currently cheating in 3dmark2003, this is 169% fact. If you ignore this fact you have no self respect and may as well let Nvidia rape you.

Amen, brother. Why, just the other day, my buddy and I were doing a little multiplayer 3dMark2003 and I was just blown away at the quality and speed of his 9800 compared to my 5900.

Chum

 

chsh1ca

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2003
1,179
0
0
Originally posted by: CaiNaM

lmao.. silvertrine IS the troll.
Yeah, I said that before reading a few other posts by him. I'm sorry for that Insomniak. Anti-trolls sometimes look like trolls...

Originally posted by: Chumster

Amen, brother. Why, just the other day, my buddy and I were doing a little multiplayer 3dMark2003 and I was just blown away at the quality and speed of his 9800 compared to my 5900.
Yeah damn, none of my friends like to play multiplayer 3DM03, they're all about the single player.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
CaiNaM-

Edited the last post, sorry about having that quote under my response to you.

You don't own an XBox and Halo do you? I have my main AV setup right next to my main rig. NV is rendering the effect the same way it is on the XBox. Really wish I had a vid capture board handy so I could just capture some shots, I can see it clearly running right next to each other and the XBox looks just like the nV method of rendering it. This is a GearBox screwup as I can use 3DAnalyzer to force the R9800Pro to render it properly.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
yea Ben, i do.. need to find the damn halo disk tho lol.. i go thru "spurts" of playing xbox.. i have all 3 consoles along with all my pc's lol.. only so much time

hey, did you say you CAN get an nv card to render it the same as ati?
 
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