Obama reverses abortion-funding policy

[shira]

I never said a word about 'murder', 'god', 'personalities'.. any of those bullshit talking points. Are abortions really a GOOD thing for society? Is it something that we should be striving to encourage, make cheaper, make easier, etc? Is it a critical part of us evolving as a society that we make it as easy as possible to get abortions?

There's no 'person' to a dog either. Yet we protect them. There's retarded people who have little to no personality, yet we protect them.. we protect prematurely born children.. hell, we protect these 'growths' inside of women after a certain point now. Why do we do that currently?

Possibly because it's capable of surviving outside the womb without extraordinary measures?

Why do we charge people with multiple homicides if they murder someone with one of the growths inside of them?

Maybe because this is the EXCEPTION that proves the rule that a fetus is NOT a baby, er, person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_murder

It is possible but rare for a double-murder charge to be enforced in cases of homicide in which a pregnant woman is murdered, thereby killing her unborn fetus, such as in the Laci Peterson case. In most jurisdictions, such a case will not happen, because in general, a fetus is not legally considered a person, and thus killing a fetus is not legally equivalent to homicide.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

At what point does a baby become a human being, then?

In terms of having a personality? Probably a couple months after birth. But we don't need to make that exact determination because nature has provided us with an excellent and objective place at which to draw the line--at birth.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I never said a word about 'murder', 'god', 'personalities'.. any of those bullshit talking points. Are abortions really a GOOD thing for society?

Yes.

Is it something that we should be striving to encourage, make cheaper, make easier, etc?

In a non-coercive way for instances where it is the rational choice, then yes.

Is it a critical part of us evolving as a society that we make it as easy as possible to get abortions?

Yes.

There's no 'person' to a dog either. Yet we protect them. There's retarded people who have little to no personality, yet we protect them.. we protect prematurely born children.. hell, we protect these 'growths' inside of women after a certain point now. Why do we do that currently?

Because we have empathy for animals. However if an animal is causing a problem or a significant kind of inconvenience then we put them down. We even raise them for food.

Retarded people have personalities, hence we recognize their having individual rights.

We protect growths inside of women because they are valuable to the women and the men who impregnated them. Protecting the growth inside of a woman isn't different from protecting the woman herself. It would be different if fetuses simply grew along the side of the road, disconnected from anyone.

Why do we charge people with multiple homicides if they murder someone with one of the growths inside of them?

It makes the Christians happy.

Your points are all silly. I don't give a crap what you want to call a baby.. I'm saying its not a POSITIVE thing for society to encourage people to get free and plentiful abortions with no consequences. I think it HURTS us, it makes us LESS human.. it makes us respect life less.

Can you explain how it is "not positive" from an economic standpoint? What if a poor woman's having a child she cannot afford or a crack baby would be damaging to our nation's society? Do you like paying high taxes? Do you like the increased risk of crime you suffer as a result of poor children growing up in squalor with parents who cannot raise them properly?

 

[Fear No Evil]

No, no, no. Don't tell FNE this. FNE honestly sees a two-week-old clump of cells as being identical to baby in a perambulator.

Actually I consider YOU to be about as intelligent as a two week clump of cells. Actually, that might be insulting the cells.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Yes.
Can you explain how it is "not positive" from an economic standpoint? What if a poor woman's having a child she cannot afford or a crack baby would be damaging to our nation's society? Do you like paying high taxes? Do you like the increased risk of crime you suffer as a result of poor children growing up in squalor with parents who cannot raise them properly?

Using your logic we should also kill old people, crippled people, drug addicts, and pretty much anyone who doesn't contribute to society in whatever way you determine to be useful. Why pay for the heart operation of the 70 year old? He's lived his useful life.. let him die. You don't like higher taxes do you?

Think of all the people with elderly parents who are forced to support their parents. With the rising cost of health care many of those people will turn to crime to afford to live. Do you LIKE crime?

Its also interesting that you think that poor people are only capable of becoming criminals. What other beliefs do you have? Should people of color be aborted in your mind because they are more prone to be poor, and thus criminals according to your logic?

 

[Craig234]

You have soldiers accidentally getting pregnant in a combat zone...

No, you don't. You have risk taking, you have rape, you don't have accidental pregnancy.

 

[Craig234]

Of course, birth control is 100% effective and is always used 100% correctly. Because soldiers are never inebriated.

Birth control sex is not an 'accident', it's choosing to take a risk. Inebriated sex isn't an 'accident' any more than drunk driving is an 'accident'.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Birth control sex is not an 'accident', it's choosing to take a risk. Inebriated sex isn't an 'accident' any more than drunk driving is an 'accident'.

Holy **** I agree with Craig. Do I need to turn in my GOP card?

 

[Acanthus]

I never said a word about 'murder', 'god', 'personalities'.. any of those bullshit talking points. Are abortions really a GOOD thing for society? Is it something that we should be striving to encourage, make cheaper, make easier, etc? Is it a critical part of us evolving as a society that we make it as easy as possible to get abortions?

There's no 'person' to a dog either. Yet we protect them. There's retarded people who have little to no personality, yet we protect them.. we protect prematurely born children.. hell, we protect these 'growths' inside of women after a certain point now. Why do we do that currently?

Why do we charge people with multiple homicides if they murder someone with one of the growths inside of them? Your points are all silly. I don't give a crap what you want to call a baby.. I'm saying its not a POSITIVE thing for society to encourage people to get free and plentiful abortions with no consequences. I think it HURTS us, it makes us LESS human.. it makes us respect life less.

Yes, abortions are a good thing from a world standpoint.

1. We (as people) will exceed the carrying capacity of the earth in population in 2 generations.

2. It is a lot cheaper (fiscally) to support a $350 abortion than $125,000+ to raise a child on the govt wallet to the age of 17.

3. Hedging population increases now rather than later makes more severe and undesirable choices down the road less of an issue. (limits on number of children, tax penalties levied for people with too many children, even forced abortions for people who get pregnant too often...)

 

[Atreus21]

In terms of having a personality? Probably a couple months after birth. But we don't need to make that exact determination because nature has provided us with an excellent and objective place at which to draw the line--at birth.

In terms of when it is afforded the right to life granted to all human beings.

On what basis is the baby any less a human being 5 seconds before birth as 5 seconds after it?

 

[manlymatt83]

When will the time come where it's socially acceptable for the father to give some input? That's what I wanna know.

 

[Carmen813]

When will the time come where it's socially acceptable for the father to give some input? That's what I wanna know.

I tend to think that the mere fact that a pregnancy exists means the father gave all the "input" that was required.

knuck knuck knuck.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Using your logic we should also kill old people, crippled people, drug addicts, and pretty much anyone who doesn't contribute to society in whatever way you determine to be useful. Why pay for the heart operation of the 70 year old? He's lived his useful life.. let him die. You don't like higher taxes do you?

You're missing something. I'm not advocating killing poor or old people. My entire argument is that fetuses are not and cannot possibly be people. I then go on to mention that sometimes our society would be better off if some fetuses were aborted and thus never grew to become people.

If you want to argue against abortion, please roll up your sleeves and argue for the existence of a God who breathes a soul into the embryo at conception. Argue that abortion itself truly is murder.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

On what basis is the baby any less a human being 5 seconds before birth as 5 seconds after it?

It's not. You could argue that after birth it is individuated and no longer living as a parasite inside of a woman. My point is that even just after birth it doesn't have a human personality, so birth works as a good objective drawing line. It's no longer in the woman but it's still safely before the infant could have a personality.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

When will the time come where it's socially acceptable for the father to give some input? That's what I wanna know.

Are you referring to men being able to "veto" a woman's choosing to have an abortion or are you referring to men being able to get a "paper abortion for men", absolving him of all parental rights and responsibilities, such as child support?

If the Christians take over and turn the nation into Jesusland then one of the steps toward making abortion illegal would be to give men a veto power.

If you're talking about "paper abortions for men" or "choice for men" then it's going to be decades until that happens. People would need to accept abortion more, first. They would need to think of abortion the way I do, as something that is often good. The idea behind paper abortions for men is that a man would offer to pay for the cost of an abortion. The pregnant woman is then free to either have an abortion or have the child knowing that she won't receive any child support from the father. The problem with this is that it encourages abortion and assumes that abortion is a viable and rational option for people. Our culture and people's philosophies need to change dramatically before that happens.

 

[Blackjack200]

Abortion is not a bad thing at all. In fact, in an overpopulated world, it is usually a good thing.

People always have and always will have sex for recreation. When the birth control doesn't work (or just isn't used), it's time for Plan B. The sooner everyone else realizes this (as WhipperSnapper obviously does) the better. But I'm getting tired of waiting.

 

[Elfear]

Abortion is not a bad thing at all. In fact, in an overpopulated world, it is usually a good thing.

People always have and always will have sex for recreation. When the birth control doesn't work (or just isn't used), it's time for Plan B. The sooner everyone else realizes this (as WhipperSnapper obviously does) the better. But I'm getting tired of waiting.

You're going to have to wait until the majority think that fetuses are just a bunch of cells (or a parasite as Whippersnapper defines it). Until then people aren't going to stand for killing a fetus because it is inconvenient for someone to carry the baby to term. You can't keep your hands to yourself well there are consequences to it. I find it appalling that women would rather abort a baby than deal with the inconvenience of being pregnant.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

On what basis is the baby any less a human being 5 seconds before birth as 5 seconds after it?

On the same basis that a bachelor isn't a husband 5 seconds before he is declared to be married by a justice of the peace. It isn't magic.

 

[ModestGamer]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/23/obama.abortion/index.html

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/4602214408.html


Looks like Obama has reversed himself....

stands a good chance to lower welfare rolls. Good stuff.

 

[Blackjack200]

You're going to have to wait until the majority think that fetuses are just a bunch of cells (or a parasite as Whippersnapper defines it).

They are just a bunch of cells. We're all just a bunch of cells. Sorry, you're not a special snowflake. We don't kill each other for much the same reason that piranhas don't eat each other: it's harmful to the survival of the species. Aborting fetuses when there are already more people in the world than can be supported is not harmful to the species.

Until then people aren't going to stand for killing a fetus because it is inconvenient for someone to carry the baby to term. You can't keep your hands to yourself well there are consequences to it. I find it appalling that women would rather abort a baby than deal with the inconvenience of being pregnant.

Wow, what a childish way to think. Why don't you join Islam or some other religion where the men can just tell the women what to do? That's seriously fucking pathetic.

 

[sandorski]

When will the time come where it's socially acceptable for the father to give some input? That's what I wanna know.

It already is. What exactly are you waiting for?

 

[bullbert]

At what point does a baby become a human being, then?

When they are old enough to accept welfare (or their parents or future parents accept welfare in their behalf.

 

[piasabird]

O'Bammah the baby killer.

 

[Elfear]

They are just a bunch of cells. We're all just a bunch of cells. Sorry, you're not a special snowflake. We don't kill each other for much the same reason that piranhas don't eat each other: it's harmful to the survival of the species. Aborting fetuses when there are already more people in the world than can be supported is not harmful to the species.

Well from that point of view what is the harm in driving down the road and capping some random "bunch of cells"? There are so many people here anyway right?

Wow, what a childish way to think. Why don't you join Islam or some other religion where the men can just tell the women what to do? That's seriously fucking pathetic.

How is personal accountability even related to religions where men just tell the women what to do? Not seeing the connection there. Per your thinking, if I saw a woman about to kill someone I should stay out of it because hey, she can do with her body what she wants to.

 

[JTsyo]

Because human life is so precious that we demand that it be preserved so that we can later starve it to death?

That's what I don't get about the anti-abortion movement, wouldn't their time be much better spend helping needy children than ones not born yet?