#OccupyWallstreet

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Mike Gayner

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2007
6,175
3
0
Agreed, and it's why I don't get into discussions with these people. Reddit has much more intellectual discussions on issues like this, and I'm sure many other sites do as well, but for some reason it just doesn't happen here. Makes me wonder why I bother with the Anandtech forums anymore.

Sub-reddits are echo chambers for people of similar political standings. You think you're having a more intellectual discussion, but in fact you're just not being challenged because you're only exposing yourself to like-minded people. ATPN is likely a more accurate cross-section of your country than any particular sub reddit.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
check out these greedy hippies


Having fun with the cherry picking are we? How do you know they're not greedy hippies? You know nothing about them, and just because they're WWII vets doesn't make them grizzled conservatives with far-away mournful stares. Isn't the left supposed to be against stereotyping?
 
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orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
You really need to concoct better straw men. The issue on Wall Street is two fold. First, there's the belief that so many of the Street elite didn't "earn" their money at all, but essentially stole it. Then there's the outrage that in the process of raping our economy they so screwed it up that it's on the verge of collapsing ... further enriching them through government handouts.

With respect to the first argument, if there is evidence of fraud I suggest the concerned parties present the evidence -- whether to the media or the proper regulators/authorities -- and, in effect, let the judicial process resolve the matter. I do not see the need to protest anything or traduce an entire sector of the economy for the ill-deeds of a few. Of course, I have the feeling that many of the protesters do not believe that they have committed any actual crimes for which the accused could be charged -- much less found guilty -- so instead they posit novel theories of criminality or infer criminality because banks or market participants enjoy high profit margins. I don't think either approach is all that persuasive.

With respect to the second claim, there are two claims with which I take issue:

a) Raping the Economy:
At bottom, the crisis was produced by a housing bubble. The housing bubble was caused by a confluence of factors ranging from the imprudence of Wall St. to governmental policy to monetary policy to personal avarice on the part of individuals.

To be sure, the bubble probably would not have been as large as it was absent the financial innovations used by Wall St. banks. Like all bubbles, however, the housing bubble would have eventually would have burst irrespective of any participation by Wall Street.

I would also suggest that the seize-up in markets and the true 'panic' period of Fall '08 to Winter '09 was also partially the fault of government taking a too interventionist role in the financial markets. Specifically, the government's inconsistency in handling the Bear and Lehman situations spooked the market (the government rescue of Bear also created expectations -- both within financial markets and the remaining banks themselves -- that were frustrated when the government refused to support Lehman). Lehman could have been wound-up like any business but the inconsistent policy of the government induced an irrational response by many market participants which created the run or panic that caused such harm. This is not to suggest that Dick Fuld was a good manager or that Lehman was well-run -- they were most certainly not. I think, however, you are not properly appreciating the effect of government policy and action can have on financial markets, transforming a minor blip into a serious problem.


b) Further Enriching them through Gov't Handouts:
All the banks that received assistance from the government during the Fall of '08 have repaid the money back; indeed, even BofA, which was not only poorly run pre-collapse but coerced by Fed and Treasury officials into assuming the toxic assets of Merill, had repaid the money it received. This speaks to the fact that, at a fundamental level, the problems experienced by the banks was one of liquidity; this fact doesn't entirely absolve banks of their imprudence but, at the same time, suggests that they were the victims of an irrational panic in parts of the financial sector that temporarily impeded their ability to raise operational funding (banks were especially hard-hit by the freeze-up in the MMF and repo markets as they rely on these markets for daily funding). Moreover, it should be noted a number of the banks that received TARP funding, including JP Morgan, did not want the money. Instead, Fed and Treasury required they take the money so as to not stigmatize the banks that had a genuine need for federal assistance.

Even AIG, which fell through the regulatory cracks and managed to assume a sub-optimal level of outstanding obligations has not actually cost the government that much money (indeed, the privatization of AIG might even turn a profit for the government). Here, I think this speaks to the fact that the theory on which the derivative and CDS trading was based was, on a fundamental level, sound. There were two problems with AIG -- one peculiar to AIG and one applicable to any company trading in securitized products of residential mortgages. As to the latter, there simply wasn't the data on correlation and other effects so that he rate of default couldn't accurately be predicted. Thus, banks had no way of knowing with any real sort of certainty the risk of default for the pool of assets that backed the securities they well selling.

As to the former, the risk models designed by AIG always assumed that the company would have a AAA credit rating -- when they lost it the models were turned on their head. Here again, the problem was simply one of liqudity, in that AIG never thought they would have to post substantial amounts of collateral despite their holding a huge notational sum of CDS contracts. Further driving home the point that this was a liquidity problem, hardly any (<10%) of the 'super-senior' tranches insured by AIG actually defaulted and required AIG to pay out on the CDS contract. The fundamental theory behind securitizations and collateralization worked -- it was merely the practical implementation that failed.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,672
136
Having fun with the cherry picking are we? How do you know they're not greedy hippies? You know nothing about them, and just because they're WWII vets doesn't make them grizzled conservatives with far-away mournful stares. Isn't the left supposed to be against stereotyping?

Well ya but thats two more WII vets at the occupy Wall street rally then there are black men at a tea party rally.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
With respect to the first argument, if there is evidence of fraud I suggest the concerned parties present the evidence -- whether to the media or the proper regulators/authorities -- and, in effect, let the judicial process resolve the matter. I do not see the need to protest anything or traduce an entire sector of the economy for the ill-deeds of a few. Of course, I have the feeling that many of the protesters do not believe that they have committed any actual crimes for which the accused could be charged -- much less found guilty -- so instead they posit novel theories of criminality or infer criminality because banks or market participants enjoy high profit margins. I don't think either approach is all that persuasive.

With respect to the second claim, there are two claims with which I take issue:

a) Raping the Economy:
At bottom, the crisis was produced by a housing bubble. The housing bubble was caused by a confluence of factors ranging from the imprudence of Wall St. to governmental policy to monetary policy to personal avarice on the part of individuals.

To be sure, the bubble probably would not have been as large as it was absent the financial innovations used by Wall St. banks. Like all bubbles, however, the housing bubble would have eventually would have burst irrespective of any participation by Wall Street.

I would also suggest that the seize-up in markets and the true 'panic' period of Fall '08 to Winter '09 was also partially the fault of government taking a too interventionist role in the financial markets. Specifically, the government's inconsistency in handling the Bear and Lehman situations spooked the market (the government rescue of Bear also created expectations -- both within financial markets and the remaining banks themselves -- that were frustrated when the government refused to support Lehman). Lehman could have been wound-up like any business but the inconsistent policy of the government induced an irrational response by many market participants which created the run or panic that caused such harm. This is not to suggest that Dick Fuld was a good manager or that Lehman was well-run -- they were most certainly not. I think, however, you are not properly appreciating the effect of government policy and action can have on financial markets, transforming a minor blip into a serious problem.


b) Further Enriching them through Gov't Handouts:
All the banks that received assistance from the government during the Fall of '08 have repaid the money back; indeed, even BofA, which was not only poorly run pre-collapse but coerced by Fed and Treasury officials into assuming the toxic assets of Merill, had repaid the money it received. This speaks to the fact that, at a fundamental level, the problems experienced by the banks was one of liquidity; this fact doesn't entirely absolve banks of their imprudence but, at the same time, suggests that they were the victims of an irrational panic in parts of the financial sector that temporarily impeded their ability to raise operational funding (banks were especially hard-hit by the freeze-up in the MMF and repo markets as they rely on these markets for daily funding). Moreover, it should be noted a number of the banks that received TARP funding, including JP Morgan, did not want the money. Instead, Fed and Treasury required they take the money so as to not stigmatize the banks that had a genuine need for federal assistance.

Even AIG, which fell through the regulatory cracks and managed to assume a sub-optimal level of outstanding obligations has not actually cost the government that much money (indeed, the privatization of AIG might even turn a profit for the government). Here, I think this speaks to the fact that the theory on which the derivative and CDS trading was based was, on a fundamental level, sound. There were two problems with AIG -- one peculiar to AIG and one applicable to any company trading in securitized products of residential mortgages. As to the latter, there simply wasn't the data on correlation and other effects so that he rate of default couldn't accurately be predicted. Thus, banks had no way of knowing with any real sort of certainty the risk of default for the pool of assets that backed the securities they well selling.

As to the former, the risk models designed by AIG always assumed that the company would have a AAA credit rating -- when they lost it the models were turned on their head. Here again, the problem was simply one of liqudity, in that AIG never thought they would have to post substantial amounts of collateral despite their holding a huge notational sum of CDS contracts. Further driving home the point that this was a liquidity problem, hardly any (<10%) of the 'super-senior' tranches insured by AIG actually defaulted and required AIG to pay out on the CDS contract. The fundamental theory behind securitizations and collateralization worked -- it was merely the practical implementation that failed.
Very well said. I could also add that the bubble wouldn't have been nearly as destructive if Congress hadn't removed the protections of Glass-Steagall, and if the federal government had conscientiously done its job regulating these companies and industries. Government needs to heal itself as well.

Pretty much says it all...

LOL! +1
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Wouldn't this movement be against banks and the stock market? Or those who use money and manipulate money to make money, but in the end produce nothing?

I didn't think it was against corporations who built shoes, camera, etc.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Wouldn't this movement be against banks and the stock market? Or those who use money and manipulate money to make money, but in the end produce nothing?

I didn't think it was against corporations who built shoes, camera, etc.

i thought they were bitching about wanting jobs, you know all the ones corporations aren't giving them.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,276
9,471
136
Having fun with the cherry picking are we? How do you know they're not greedy hippies? You know nothing about them, and just because they're WWII vets doesn't make them grizzled conservatives with far-away mournful stares. Isn't the left supposed to be against stereotyping?

THAT guy is 90? Looking good able to walk around and be there.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
i thought they were bitching about wanting jobs, you know all the ones corporations aren't giving them.

I also thought I read some hokum about their desire to show how corporations are subverting democratic processes and spreading their tentacles throughout the world so as to control and exploit the 'people'.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Sub-reddits are echo chambers for people of similar political standings. You think you're having a more intellectual discussion, but in fact you're just not being challenged because you're only exposing yourself to like-minded people. ATPN is likely a more accurate cross-section of your country than any particular sub reddit.

Reddit is one of the biggest, brainless emotional left-yuppie peanut gallery I've ever seen. I had to stop reading it, when idiotic Policy articles started getting clicked up to the front page and the commentariat would just eat it up.

It's like listening to NPR station that only plays Democracy Now or one of the Glen Beck people... get ready for your narrative, even before the topic on hand occurs.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
This is great news! Obama and top democrats are openly supporting the communists! Now that shouldn't surprise anybody but that they would do it openly is. Obama has long fanned the class warfare flames in his hopes of stirring the proletariat and the useful idiots lap it up. So this is exactly what he wants. Fortunately tax paying Americans see it for what it is, a bunch of whiny communists, and obama is taking their side. Bad move.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65215.html
President Barack Obama embraced the Wall Street protesters Thursday after dozens were arrested the day before in the largest demonstration to date that drew thousands of participants and had the support of major union groups

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65215.html#ixzz1a23d2rN9
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Pretty much says it all...


Clue (which is wasted on Spidey):

The left isn't 'against corporations'. They're against corporations doing bad things.

The left is highly 'pro-business'. But that's sort of like saying you're 'pro your brother'. You might be pro him, but it doesn't mean you want him raping your wife and eating your dog.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Clue (which is wasted on Spidey):

The left isn't 'against corporations'. They're against corporations doing bad things.

The left is highly 'pro-business'. But that's sort of like saying you're 'pro your brother'. You might be pro him, but it doesn't mean you want him raping your wife and eating your dog.

yuh huh...
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Now this is what Obama is good at, this is what a community organizer does.

Fix the economy, create jobs, fix the housing market..... Not so much. Getting the dumbest of the dumb to take off their bathroom slippers and march against the "man", that is what he brings to the table.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
lol at these fucks "a job is a right" yeah so go fucking do something. go start a fucking garden, work for yourself. fucking infants need someone else to tell them how to live their life. might as well be slaves with a slogan like "a job is a right".
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
This is great news! Obama and top democrats are openly supporting the communists! Now that shouldn't surprise anybody but that they would do it openly is. Obama has long fanned the class warfare flames in his hopes of stirring the proletariat and the useful idiots lap it up. So this is exactly what he wants. Fortunately tax paying Americans see it for what it is, a bunch of whiny communists, and obama is taking their side. Bad move.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65215.html
Not surprised. This is basic community organizing, organize and march and demand that people give you stuff for free to go away.

yuh huh...
LOL +1
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Not surprised. This is basic community organizing, organize and march and demand that people give you stuff for free to go away.


LOL +1

You're exactly right, these are your typical obama voters. I think the left is making a big mistake by siding with the communists, it exposes their true wishes a little too much.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
You're exactly right, these are your typical obama voters. I think the left is making a big mistake by siding with the communists, it exposes their true wishes a little too much.

Yeah very very risky strategy - mainstream people do not identify with hippies and unions are a pretty small voter base. Catering to those people has high change of turning off the moderate base.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
The left is highly 'pro-business'. But that's sort of like saying you're 'pro your brother'. You might be pro him, but it doesn't mean you want him raping your wife and eating your dog.

From the little coverage I've read concerning the Occupy folks, I haven't been very impressed by their arguments. Moreover, it seems that their animus towards Wall St. is not informed by any serious policy grievances or specific misdeeds. Instead, it seems far more common for the involved parties to either speak of grand corporate conspiracies or attribute their personal misfortunes or shortcomings to corporations. Although the former is good for a chuckle and the latter tugs at the heart strings, neither serves as suitable foundation on which to base any serious policy.

As to the left generally, a full explication of their general aversion to free markets and the free enterprise system is probably not possible in the present setting. It might be more fruitful if I were to simply suggest that whereas the right places it faith in markets -- and invites government regulation and intervention only when there are clearly identifiable market failures -- the left places its faith in government to order economic activity and desires so as to guide the market. In effect, I would contend that the left automatically assumes, as a default position, that government administrators and regulators can achieve more optimal outcomes than the unfettered market.
 
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