OCZ Vertex Review

[kensiko]

Originally posted by: jed

NOBODY should buy a SSD and think the data in it is safe. Backup backup backup!

Well, to be fair, " NOBODY should buy any storage device and think the data in it is safe."

Well you need to set a level of thrust in your storage device.

When I say it's not safe in SSD, it's because I have set a level of thrust where the data is safe or not.

 

[alcoholbob]

The problem with the Vertex is, unless you are comfortable imaging a hard drive, installing an OS is not as easy as a hard drive. OCZ's OS installation instructions is to boot from the CD. Why? Depending on the OS, the drive itself unable to expand the Windows image properly and will hang. This means both the upgrade route and the install from OS to another partition route are a complete fail.

You are also asked to remove all other hard drives when you install the Vertex. There's a good chance your Windows installation will be corrupted if the old bootmanager is still present.

Great, so now you finally install Windows. If you had dual boot or multiple OSes, have fun re-installing ALL of them now. It's too much hoop jumping for me honestly. I can do this once or twice, but using up 5-6 hours as unproductive as simply reinstalling your OSes is a monumental waste of time. This does not account for everything you will need to get your OSes up and running like you used to. Next thing you know you've spent the better part of a day for a damn firmware update.

The excuse? "Oh Microsoft/Intel/etc/etc/etc and all these guys need to get off their butts and optimize for SSDs." Bullshit. If firmware updates can fix so many of these issues that you claimed were OS/motherboard incompatbilities, then that means you never had a working product to start with. That's like saying your state government did not optimize the roads for your tires.

I mentioned this on the OCZ forum and the mods keep stating that all this tinkering is completely authorized. Again, bullshit. Read your warranty. OCZ explicitly has a provision for user modification that absolves them from warranting your drive. The truth is, if your drive fails with this firmware update, OCZ is not even remotely legally obligated to perform any warranty service on your product. They can do so as a curtesy but just the same they can leave you floating in the water--essentially you are in their mercy.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: kensiko

Originally posted by: jed

NOBODY should buy a SSD and think the data in it is safe. Backup backup backup!

Well, to be fair, " NOBODY should buy any storage device and think the data in it is safe."

Well you need to set a level of thrust in your storage device.

When I say it's not safe in SSD, it's because I have set a level of thrust where the data is safe or not.

I tend to avoid storing my data in places where thrusting is likely, regardless the "storage media" involved. :laugh:

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: kensiko
Maybe because of the huge price difference ??

Blain you never had a SSD I think. Yes a velociraptor is fast, but for reading, a SSD is MUCH faster, believe me!

* The Intel X25-E is $404. the OCZSSD2-1VTX120G is $450 AR.
No "huge price difference" there.
* The Intel X25-E for $404 is 32GB, other drives in their benchmarks were 16GB, 32GB, 64GB, etc.
So capacity doesn't seem to have factored in.
> Which brings me right back to my original question...
Why didn't Benchmark Reviews include the Intel X25-E in the testing?

Sure "read" times are a bit faster, but the RAID 0 VelociRaptor's mopped the floor with the OCZ drive in write times.
My tasks required writing data as well as reading it.

X25-E is the killer laptop or otherwise drive. Who needs more than that for an OS anyway?

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: usernamereserved

Thx for the welcome
I would agree that OCZ forums are heavily moderated but it is a product support forum.
CD Freaks are however independent and a much larger site than Anandtech and that is where the Vertex review is located. It is not located on OCZ.
And for someone who is supposed to be so pro OCZ. The author of that review looks fairly balanced in my opinion in this post.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f138/...5m-267894/#post2232660

It just looks like at least one person here is jumping the gun a bit with these slanderous comments.

You are unbelievably naive for certain. Either that or you are one of the OCZ cronies.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: coolVariable

Originally posted by: IntelUser2000

Performance degradation happens with ALL SSD drives, regardless of SLC or MLC.

Whether you'll notice the degradation depends on *YOUR* usage. There are Mtron and Samsung SLC users reporting "freezes"(previous controllers, don't know about new ones).

There is only one reported user who experienced stuttering on the Samsung SLC that I am aware off.
And that user, in his own posting on notebookreview forums, said that it might be due to him using a beta of Win7. he was unable to reproduce the stuttering with vista or XP.

I would not really consider that a sign that Samsung SLC drives stutter.
If that were the case, we should have seen it happen to more than 1 user.

I use it daily in my X200s and have not noticed a stutter. Windows 7 7057 has brought some issues to my setup but the drive was perfectly fine in the 7000, and Vista. Maybe if I pounded it like a server might get pounded 24/7/365 it might show stuttering in a few months but so far it's been good. Nice and fast but not exactly jaw dropping or anything. I suppose I'll realize the difference if I had to use a machine with a HDD again.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
Comparing current generation MLC SSD to a previous generation SLC SSD is akin to comparing the first out of order mainstream CPU, Pentium Pro, to a modern in order CPU like the Atom. Out of order processing was big back in the day, but Atom's numerous enhancements more than mitigate it.

Sorry but terrible analogy. Firstly you are talking about a time frame in technology which would be like a century in any other field with that CPU analogy. Secondly the very way a SLC erases data to rewrite a sector is completely different. They don't seem to need to use these multichannel tricks to effectively use SLC Flash. The technologies are so different that the issues they suffer from are different and if they are the same then the reasons are different. There is no chipset for an MLC yet that can polish the turd that is MLC Flash yet. Intel's try was the best and even that was not good enough. These Samsung chipsets don't really offer a fresh approach beyond what Intel has done and I don't have great expectations for it. SLC has been around for years with MTron and others selling SLC product far before we consumers got our Samsung product. We would have heard already of issues.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
No dude. I'm just pointing out people in general look at things in black and white. That's why they became so disappointed when they found out their fresh OCZ Core drive "stutter". And these people pay extreme attention to sequential read and write speeds which the Samsung first gen SLCs didn't excel at. Hell why would they buy an expensive SLC SSD that has less sequential speeds than the Raptors?

OCZ Core on the other hand, people flocked to it because it was so affordable, and the sequential speeds are higher.

See funny thing. At the same page in the same forum, I see complaints about OCZ Core, and at some point in the page somebody says "OCZ SSD with sequential speeds of 300MB/s" or whatever. They talk like they only care about random speeds, then they see the sequential speeds, the BIG NUMBERS. and suddenly they are blind.

What is the point of these high sequential reads or writes apart from benchmarks and to show off those benchmarks? When I use my laptop and need to open a program and it opens up in a second did it matter to me that my sequential read was only 80-100MBPS? What mattered to me is that the program popped up in a second. On a 7200RPM HDD, I would hear the drive actuator making noises for 3-5 seconds while it locates data randomly strewn about the platter. This happens no matter how much I defrag the drive. The only real good use for such high transfer reads and writes are to transfer large files from one SSD to another. But since that's not what I do all day like a hamster on a wheel, sequential transfer speeds don't matter to me.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: jeffbui

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
I thought the whole point of the intel and vertex is that neither of them NEEDS you do apply any tweaks..

It's getting closer...with Vertex you still get to dicker around with firmware updates. Nothing your average enthusiast would shy away from but your best buy customers aren't likely to want to be bothered.

The thing is, updating the firmware of the drive requires a complete wipe of the data store unlike any other hardware firmware updates. I consider myself an enthusiast but I'm sure no one likes reinstalling their operating system and program files. Also, for those of us running notebook computers, a firmware update is much more difficult to perform.

Hey Debbie downer, I was trying to be as generous as possible with my upbeat view of the drive

But you make great points, I for one have zero desire to get involved with firmware updates on my drives.

If it takes firmware updates to make a product already in the field to function to expectation then me wonders what else is amiss under the hood and not addressable by mere firmware patches.

I am NOT in that big of a rush to adopt this new technology. I recognize that others are, and for them it appears Intel remains the benchmark.

But until then the OCZ fans are treading on well trod ground from the AMD fans as they recycle the oft spoken phrase "just wait till the next generation SSD/CPU/doohicky is released, it will dominate Intel's then aging flagship product like no other!...unless Intel, you know, updates their product line in the meantime as well...cuz then, then the new stuff from my fav non-Intel company might not exactly, uh, dominate, you know...".

Agreed. This MLC flash business has shown that problems arise with long term use. I won't bite until we those results. For now my ultimate laptop OS drive is the X25-E. Expensive, but anything ultimate is usually even more expensive than it has become.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: sxr7171

Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
Comparing current generation MLC SSD to a previous generation SLC SSD is akin to comparing the first out of order mainstream CPU, Pentium Pro, to a modern in order CPU like the Atom. Out of order processing was big back in the day, but Atom's numerous enhancements more than mitigate it.

Sorry but terrible analogy. Firstly you are talking about a time frame in technology which would be like a century in any other field with that CPU analogy. Secondly the very way a SLC erases data to rewrite a sector is completely different. They don't seem to need to use these multichannel tricks to effectively use SLC Flash. The technologies are so different that the issues they suffer from are different and if they are the same then the reasons are different. There is no chipset for an MLC yet that can polish the turd that is MLC Flash yet. Intel's try was the best and even that was not good enough. These Samsung chipsets don't really offer a fresh approach beyond what Intel has done and I don't have great expectations for it. SLC has been around for years with MTron and others selling SLC product far before we consumers got our Samsung product. We would have heard already of issues.

Actually MLC and SLC are the EXACT SAME FLASH only with a different controller.

 

[usernamereserved]

Originally posted by: sxr7171

Originally posted by: usernamereserved

Thx for the welcome
I would agree that OCZ forums are heavily moderated but it is a product support forum.
CD Freaks are however independent and a much larger site than Anandtech and that is where the Vertex review is located. It is not located on OCZ.
And for someone who is supposed to be so pro OCZ. The author of that review looks fairly balanced in my opinion in this post.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f138/...5m-267894/#post2232660

It just looks like at least one person here is jumping the gun a bit with these slanderous comments.

You are unbelievably naive for certain. Either that or you are one of the OCZ cronies.

And do you really think I care what you think?

 

[kensiko]

Why people in this forum are so disrespectful?

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: kensiko
Why people in this forum are so disrespectful?

It is human nature, unavoidable. Some people are disrespectful, some are respectful.

I'd say our ratio of asshats to good Samaritans is pretty good here on the AT forums.

If you want some good examples of forums with more asshat just checkout the XS "News" forum.

When participating in public forums such as these your goal should NOT be to make friends with every poster who wanders into your field of exposure, but rather to learn to ignore the asshats (that includes not posting rebuttals to their posts as well) entirely while you continue to interact with the thread's more value-add posters.

It's commonly referred to as signal-to-noise ratio. Focus on the signal, and add to it. Ignore the noise. By addressing the noise you actually add to the noise of the thread and thus you too are decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio of the thread.

Be value add, refuse to acknowledge or engage the asshats. Also be self-aware and cognizant of the fact that at times the asshat in the thread is you. No one is perfect. I've been an unintentional asshat a time or two here as well.

Thankfully folks were kind on those occasions and graciously ignored the fact I had crapped on myself. Be kind, do the same to those folks here who may be unawares of their asshatness. Bring it up with them thru pm, help them, but don't do it publicly.

 

[taltamir]

People have the illusion that they are anonymous on the internet. They aren't, but it is hard or impossible for the person they are talking to (assuming he isn't an undercover cop) to locate them and give them a good knuckle sandwich (or even just tell all their friends what Aholes they are; which would hurt them MORE) when they deserve it.

 

[coolVariable]

I also think that people on AT simply don't take too kindly to spammers or people who join/post with an agenda.
The number of new members in SSD threads must be 10 to 1 to the number of new members in other threads.
And most of these new members seem to have an agenda (e.g. usernamereserved).

I am not surprised that people are more inflammatory towards new members in SSD threads.
What does surprise me is that the mods have not intervened more often with some of these new members.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
I also think that people on AT simply don't take too kindly to spammers or people who join/post with an agenda.
The number of new members in SSD threads must be 10 to 1 to the number of new members in other threads.
And most of these new members seem to have an agenda (e.g. usernamereserved).

I am not surprised that people are more inflammatory towards new members in SSD threads.
What does surprise me is that the mods have not intervened more often with some of these new members.

I think its just that people are excited about the new vertex. The two cheaper models are all sold out on Newegg. Personally, I'm going to wait till these things hit $1 per gb before I jump in.

 

[Hauk]

Originally posted by: kensiko
Why people in this forum are so disrespectful?

Regardless of subject, here we continously see there truly are people who's glass is half empty or half full. I could post on any subject with a whole paragraph of concessions before I actually talk about the product, yet there will still be someone who can't resist pointing out the negatives. There's always a positive and always a negative. Watch and you'll see who chooses to stir up shit. Grammer police, perfect example.

Why choose to point out the negative when it's not necessary? Maybe good reason. Maybe because it's human nature for those who see the world through negative eyes..

 

[taltamir]

The glass contains 50% water and 50% gasses commonly refered to as "air". unless in a vacum, they glass is always full. ;p

 

[Hauk]

Originally posted by: taltamir
The glass contains 50% water and 50% gasses commonly refered to as "air". unless in a vacum, they glass is always full. ;p

:thumbsup:

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: taltamir
The glass contains 50% water and 50% gasses commonly refered to as "air". unless in a vacum, they glass is always full. ;p

Its vacuum not vacum you azz, get a spell chekker.

(grammerz police, ha!)

 

[VaultDweller]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
I also think that people on AT simply don't take too kindly to spammers or people who join/post with an agenda.
The number of new members in SSD threads must be 10 to 1 to the number of new members in other threads.
And most of these new members seem to have an agenda (e.g. usernamereserved).

I am not surprised that people are more inflammatory towards new members in SSD threads.
What does surprise me is that the mods have not intervened more often with some of these new members.

It's a new (to the mainstream) technology that has a lot of people interested. Thus, it brings in new members to talk about it.

What's why I'm here.

I haven't seen any reason for mods to intervene for new members "having an agenda" (though there have been cases where they might have intervened for new and old members both being assholes).

 

[AnchorMan]

be careful with the new vertex 2 line, we are seeing failures all over lately.

 

[Emulex]

just avoid sandforce. trust me here. its buggy.