OCZ Vertex Review

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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: usernamereserved
I will say sorry for the personal attack but will coolVariable say sorry at the lady in question if that review turns out correct ? I doubt it

If Wendy was a poster here, and she made claims regarding her experience with any drive, OCZ or otherwise, and any fellow poster made post attacks against her rather than the facts she used to justify her opinion then yes that poster would need to apologize in some manner that was acceptable to Wendy.

But this isn't about personal attacks on Wendy, it is about a group of individuals on this forum working thru the iterative open process of determining whether Wendy is to be considered a reasonable source of review informations or a source of information to be regarded as nothing short of OCZ sales propaganda.

All reviewers go thru this "vetting" process, it is the one's who don't take it personal and build a history and reputation for being systematic, reasonable, and unbiased that eventually become rewarded with unquestioned credibility.

She may have earned that degree of recognition among her peers at OCZ and CDfreaks. And she may very well yet earn that reputation here as well. But passionate posters such as yourself who are crusading on her behalf are not going to make friends for her, that much is for certain.

Originally posted by: usernamereserved
You said yourself early in this thread Idontcare that not all reviewers have access for Intel drives. Yet this is still held as a reason for saying the review is biased you also said that it looked like reviewer on another site had been told not to run 4K IOPS tests yet the lady run them anyway and run CrystalMark which you seemed quite happy about ?
Does that make her any less biased ?

Do not confuse my defense of a fellow poster here against a personal attack as my taking their position on the non-personal subject matter at hand.

I personally found Wendy's review data to be acceptable and value-add. However I do not have a history with Wendy as I do not follow the OCZ forums closely.

This does not mean I take coolvariable's "side" just because he says she is a shill, what it means is I take his input into consideration as I "reserve judgement" for the meantime until I see further confirmation of her activities as being shill-like or not shill-like.

Originally posted by: usernamereserved
She was at least naive for saying stuff in the open on OCZ forums that other reviewers including AT would only say behind closed doors. but where i live folks are innocent until proved guilty. only time will tell if the lady was biased or not and that will be decided by the people who buy Vertex not a couple of folks on a forum or by any review even a review by AT.

She can be innocent, doesn't mean I am going to assume every person who is innocent is also knowledgeable and trustworthy or without susceptibility to concepts of allegiance and loyalty to a pseudo-employer who smiles kindly upon her enough as to reward her good behavior with early access to review samples.

Originally posted by: usernamereserved
for your last sentence Idontcare. the mods were around as early as page two in this thread and joined in. how unbiased or professional is that ? It does not give AT a very professional look when their mods cannot stay neutral and at least wait for further results before making such judgements

You are new to these forums so it is excusable that you do not understand the existing policy and structures in place that preclude mods who are active in threads from also being the "mod" for the thread. If a mod feels it is necessary to have moderator action taken in a thread in which they themselves have been active in then a request will be placed to higher-level mods to review the thread as an independent party.

Do not confuse posts made by AT posters who are moderators as being a post made in the capacity of a moderator. Moderators are active in these forums because they want to engage in the subject matter, that is what made them become members in the first place and only later did they get promoted to mods.

Unless a moderator explicitly makes reference to their post as being from a mod in some authoritative capacity it is safe to assume you are reading a post by the person in their non-mod capacity.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: usernamereserved
LMAO @ coolVariable
You are a vindictive self acclaimed expert whos knowledge is at best very limited on the subject and you are full of cr@p and you have been exposed for what you are
have a nice day

Thank you for proving my point about the OCZ fanatics.
It's people like you that give the company the bad name it has.
And as for Wendy's review, if it can't stand on its own without people like you feeling the need to defend every word of it, when someone questions it, then you are (again) proving my point.
She is a "shill" for OCZ and I would not be surprised if you work for them too.

PS: I know a little bit more about the technology than you ... trust me.
 

usernamereserved

Junior Member
Mar 7, 2009
17
0
0
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Thank you for proving my point about the OCZ fanatics.
It's people like you that give the company the bad name it has.
And as for Wendy's review, if it can't stand on its own without people like you feeling the need to defend every word of it, when someone questions it, then you are (again) proving my point.
She is a "shill" for OCZ and I would not be surprised if you work for them too.

PS: I know a little bit more about the technology than you ... trust me.
wrong again the only SSD drive I own is Intel
now you better say sorry for the personal attack as in the forum policy here
and care for a test on technical knowledge ? do not let the postcount fool you that would be a very bad mistake on your part. trust me. but you know what ? you are not worth it.
goodbye
 

tuan209

Member
May 9, 2004
107
0
76
Looks like people are already having problems with their Vertex. Someone on notebookreview is already experiencing serious drive degradation after multiple OS installs.
 

kensiko

Member
Feb 14, 2007
27
0
0
I didn't expect the Vertex to be better than the Intel about degradation, I do think it is a MLC problem, it's explained on the OCZ forum.

We all hope the TRIM command will be a future standard.

For now, a software called HDDErase 3.1 can restore drive's performance.

And oh, I don't think anybody here is an OCZ fan. I would have bought a Samsung MLC if I could, but it was not available in 32GB (already got a Core V1 for games), neither the Intel.

One thing I don't like about Intel in SSD market is their attitude. They made a lot of money with the high price they asked for their "small" 80GB X25-M just because they are Intel. And they went further when saying the performance degradation was a "feature".

I do like Intel products, I can't swear of anything else than Core 2 and up by now. I know it's hard for AMD but it's also hard to recommend a Phenom when a Core 2 does better with lower clock frequency.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Originally posted by: kensiko
I didn't expect the Vertex to be better than the Intel about degradation, I do think it is a MLC problem, it's explained on the OCZ forum.

We all hope the TRIM command will be a future standard.

For now, a software called HDDErase 3.1 can restore drive's performance.

And oh, I don't think anybody here is an OCZ fan. I would have bought a Samsung MLC if I could, but it was not available in 32GB (already got a Core V1 for games), neither the Intel.

One thing I don't like about Intel in SSD market is their attitude. They made a lot of money with the high price they asked for their "small" 80GB X25-M just because they are Intel. And they went further when saying the performance degradation was a "feature".

I do like Intel products, I can't swear of anything else than Core 2 and up by now. I know it's hard for AMD but it's also hard to recommend a Phenom when a Core 2 does better with lower clock frequency.

No way. It is expensive per GB, but its right in terms of performance. Vertex still can't catch up to Intel, and the price difference where I live(in Canada) is only 30% per GB. Performance degradation happens with ALL SSD drives, regardless of SLC or MLC.

Whether you'll notice the degradation depends on *YOUR* usage. There are Mtron and Samsung SLC users reporting "freezes"(previous controllers, don't know about new ones). But its useable because it doesn't happen all the time.

Put the best SLC drives in an environment demanding enough and they'll fall to their knees:
FusionIO: http://forum.ssdworld.ch/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59
X25-E: http://forum.ssdworld.ch/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=82

MLC is slower than SLC but not THAT slower. Crappy controllers in MLC devices like JMicron exaggerate the differences.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000

Performance degradation happens with ALL SSD drives, regardless of SLC or MLC.

Whether you'll notice the degradation depends on *YOUR* usage. There are Mtron and Samsung SLC users reporting "freezes"(previous controllers, don't know about new ones).

There is only one reported user who experienced stuttering on the Samsung SLC that I am aware off.
And that user, in his own posting on notebookreview forums, said that it might be due to him using a beta of Win7. he was unable to reproduce the stuttering with vista or XP.

I would not really consider that a sign that Samsung SLC drives stutter.
If that were the case, we should have seen it happen to more than 1 user.

 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000

Performance degradation happens with ALL SSD drives, regardless of SLC or MLC.

Whether you'll notice the degradation depends on *YOUR* usage. There are Mtron and Samsung SLC users reporting "freezes"(previous controllers, don't know about new ones).

There is only one reported user who experienced stuttering on the Samsung SLC that I am aware off.
And that user, in his own posting on notebookreview forums, said that it might be due to him using a beta of Win7. he was unable to reproduce the stuttering with vista or XP.

I would not really consider that a sign that Samsung SLC drives stutter.
If that were the case, we should have seen it happen to more than 1 user.

Everyone believed MS that Windows 7 will be "optimized" for SSDs, but after that they believe its Windows 7 that causes it to "stutter".

How do you explain it?? People just believe what they WANT to believe.

Similar thing that he described happens on rare occasions(low signal on WiMax connection) on my X25-M.

The same guy says this: "FYI, I think I mentioned way back in this thread that Outlook used to stutter with my 1st Gen Sammy SLC. That seems to have been rectified by my 2nd Gen Sammy MLC, however, I am actually in the States with a hyper-fast network connection whereas my SLC was being used with a 1MB connection in the Middle East. There is a possibility that the internet speed had something to do with Outlook hanging from time to time, but I don't really think so. In any event, I will find out soon enough as I fly back this week.

So far so good!"

I think this might be happening.

1. SSD users are paranoid
2. Thefore, blames the SSD for ANY system lag
3. Since MLC is the more affordable SSD, there are more cases of reports about them, since naturally, the introductory prices are lower and more people buy it
4. It's possible there is "freezes" but you might NEVER see it depending on usage

Comparing current generation MLC SSD to a previous generation SLC SSD is akin to comparing the first out of order mainstream CPU, Pentium Pro, to a modern in order CPU like the Atom. Out of order processing was big back in the day, but Atom's numerous enhancements more than mitigate it.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000

Performance degradation happens with ALL SSD drives, regardless of SLC or MLC.

Whether you'll notice the degradation depends on *YOUR* usage. There are Mtron and Samsung SLC users reporting "freezes"(previous controllers, don't know about new ones).

There is only one reported user who experienced stuttering on the Samsung SLC that I am aware off.
And that user, in his own posting on notebookreview forums, said that it might be due to him using a beta of Win7. he was unable to reproduce the stuttering with vista or XP.

I would not really consider that a sign that Samsung SLC drives stutter.
If that were the case, we should have seen it happen to more than 1 user.

Everyone believed MS that Windows 7 will be "optimized" for SSDs, but after that they believe its Windows 7 that causes it to "stutter".

How do you explain it?? People just believe what they WANT to believe.

I think you want to believe what you want to believe.
For all we know that 1 SSD might be faulty or his installation of Win7 was screwed up (didn't he mention screwing with the OCZ tweaks?).
It is beta software so all the kinks have NOT been worked out of it yet.

The Samsung SLCs have been out for a long, long time. We have 1 user reporting issues with a Beta OS and you are generalizing that the the drive has the same problems (if to a lesser degree) as MLC SSDs.
I have a lot of respect for your knowledge on the subject matter but you are jumping the gun on this one.

In order to come to the conclusion that his (only his) SSD stutters, I would like to see it tested with a re-install of Win7 and then I would like to see it tested in another PC to rule out an OS issue and a hardware issue with his PC in particular.
And to come to the generalization that all Samsung SLC SSDs can be made to stutter, I would like to see at least a few people report the same issue. Not only 1.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000

1. SSD users are paranoid
2. Thefore, blames the SSD for ANY system lag
3. Since MLC is the more affordable SSD, there are more cases of reports about them, since naturally, the introductory prices are lower and more people buy it
4. It's possible there is "freezes" but you might NEVER see it depending on usage

I can agree with everything but the last statement.
Every system, HDD and even SSD can slow down when it has to do a lot. Even HDDs do that.
The problem with SSD freezes is that:
- the program/whole system comes to a stop and takes seconds (up to minutes) to work again. It is very jarring.
- the freezes might happen under "light loads" (i.e. installing a Windows Update or a driver, something that users would often do while multitasking)
- the freezes happen unexpectedly and it is not transparent/obvious to the user why they happen (if you do a ton of intensive stuff nobody would be surprised if there is some slowdown).
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
No dude. I'm just pointing out people in general look at things in black and white. That's why they became so disappointed when they found out their fresh OCZ Core drive "stutter". And these people pay extreme attention to sequential read and write speeds which the Samsung first gen SLCs didn't excel at. Hell why would they buy an expensive SLC SSD that has less sequential speeds than the Raptors?

OCZ Core on the other hand, people flocked to it because it was so affordable, and the sequential speeds are higher.

See funny thing. At the same page in the same forum, I see complaints about OCZ Core, and at some point in the page somebody says "OCZ SSD with sequential speeds of 300MB/s" or whatever. They talk like they only care about random speeds, then they see the sequential speeds, the BIG NUMBERS. and suddenly they are blind.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: IntelUser2000
No dude. I'm just pointing out people in general look at things in black and white. That's why they became so disappointed when they found out their fresh OCZ Core drive "stutter". And these people pay extreme attention to sequential read and write speeds which the Samsung first gen SLCs didn't excel at. Hell why would they buy an expensive SLC SSD that has less sequential speeds than the Raptors?

OCZ Core on the other hand, people flocked to it because it was so affordable, and the sequential speeds are higher.

See funny thing. At the same page in the same forum, I see complaints about OCZ Core, and at some point in the page somebody says "OCZ SSD with sequential speeds of 300MB/s" or whatever. They talk like they only care about random speeds, then they see the sequential speeds, the BIG NUMBERS. and suddenly they are blind.

Ok. Totally agree with you and am very frustrated by that too.
I like to compare SSDs to cars.
high sequential speeds can be compared to the car's top speed on the freeway.
random read/write speeds can be compared to the car's acceleration in stop and go traffic.
The average user drives only in city traffic: mostly stop-and-go traffic and a few streets where you might be able to floor it for a very short period. very rarely do people get on the freeway.
As a result of that I don't think it is really important what the top speed is but rather what your city-driving speed is: mostly stop-and-go and some speeding.
 

kensiko

Member
Feb 14, 2007
27
0
0
Ok sorry I was misinformed about this test, I thought it was with the new firmware.

Still waiting for anand's test!
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Price drop on newegg and Supertalents version of the vertex dropped (simple re-brand).
some of the ST drives seem to be cheaper.
 

Darkstar757

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2003
3,190
6
81
Well now the question is can I justify spending $775 on a new 250 gig drive.

Sighes these thing are too damn expensive.
 

kensiko

Member
Feb 14, 2007
27
0
0
No, don't. Buy 30GB or 60GB version just for the OS. Don't use SSD as storage, unless you got a laptop.
 

Darkstar757

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2003
3,190
6
81
My problem is I have a lot of games purchased from steam. What am I to do with them?

Just leave them on storage drives?


 

VaultDweller

Member
Nov 8, 2004
69
0
0
Originally posted by: kensiko
Don't use SSD as storage

I don't really consider software installs to be 'storage.' I have about 10 TB of other drives to use for bulk storage of data, and I assume it's going to be many years before that can economically be replaced by SSD.

For an SSD, I'd want enough space to install Windows and applications (including games). That means about 300 GB... but that could be trimmed down to around 200-250 GB if necessary. Covering that with either X25-M or Vertex drives would have a four figure price tag. Here's hoping these things are a lot cheaper by Q4 when I plan to build my new gaming rig.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: kensiko
Well, if people missed it, http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531

I'm impressed by the size of the article!

Quite the backstory Anand pieced together there for our benefit.

Where's the hand-clapping emoticon? Good job Anand!

Have to agree here, well done.

I also have to say that OCZ has gained a great deal of respect from me. I've been EXTREMELY critical of the sub-standard SSD products they (and others) have put out but from the sounds of it they are listening to what the community wants and putting out better products because of it. I just hope their willingness to work with us pays off financially. We have the power to kill their sales by exposing their flaws, the reverse should be true as well. If they put out the product we say we want we owe it to them to buy it.

Viper GTS
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Excellent article.

Although I am now not as hopeful that the intel will drop further in price.
Darn - I was sooo hoping that the Vertex would cause another mid-March price drop.
 
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