yeah man, where the hell is that explosive Bo-Sox offense? Also, is it me, or does that home plate umpire suck? I could swear that there pitches on both sides that were not called right on all.
Originally posted by: Insane3D
I'm changing my vote from "Red Sox in 6" to Yankes in 4....
Originally posted by: Gibson486
Originally posted by: Insane3D
I'm changing my vote from "Red Sox in 6" to Yankes in 4....
yeah man, where the hell is that explosive Bo-Sox offense?
Originally posted by: Gibson486
You have to admit though, Pedro pitched a good game last night (his fastball clocked at 96 mph at one point). The yankees though have either been astounding with the pitching, or the Red Sox just don't feel like hitting. They key here are the Yankee starters. If you make them fall, you have a better chance of winning b/c that Yankee bullpen is really not that scary (aside from their closer). The same also goes for the Red Sox b/c their bullpen is not golden either, even though last year it was. I hope Arroyo has his curve going....he is going to need it.
Originally posted by: Insane3D
I'm changing my vote from "Red Sox in 6" to Yankes in 4....
Well, I proved last year that it's almost a given that at least 1-2 of the "final four" teams in the playoffs had the highest payrolls (usually top 5) dating all the way back to 1990 (only researched back to that year). There were maybe 1 or 2 years in the last 15 where 1 or more teams in the top 5 in payroll didn't make the "final four", for instance when Anaheim won it. But those couple of years are an anomaly, it's almost always a given that huge payroll teams like NY, ATL, Boston, or even Florida (when they won it 1997 they were top 5 in payroll) will be in the playoffs. Hence, more often than not, you can easily correlate $ to making the playoffs. As far as who wins the WS/League is a coin flip from there, as evidenced by the D.backs 2001 and Marlins last year. But I don't think it's wrong to say that "little" playoff teams will almost always be underdogs in the playoffs. So all in all, you can buy a spot in the playoffs (Boston/NY, not sure about Stros/Cards), which is sad because whatever happened to bringing up a kid through the farm system?Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Yankees won, OH MY GOSH LOOK AT THEIR PAYROLL! Funny, I didn't hear that when the Marlins beat the Yanks. Then I heard about HEART. The HEART of the Marlins pitchers, the HEART of the team in general. Same thing when the Angels beat the Yanks. I didn't hear anyone complaining about the Yankees payroll then! Boston's payroll is probably more than the Angels and Marlins combined at the time they beat the Yankees (not going by actual stats, too lazy to check it up), but all you hear from Boston is YANKEE PAYROLL. Before the series I heard how "This is the Year!" and how Boston was gonna pitch the Yankee bats into submission, now I hear Payroll complaints. Don't complain now Sox fans, I don't hear the complaints coming from the Marlins fans.
That comment was made by some guy who's made one post recently, so I'll assume that this is directed at me, in which case I again state that I AM NOT USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE, JUST POINTING OUT THAT THE SOX ARE A DISTANT SECOND.
faenix: explain?
I was just reading this thread, listening to sportstalk radio and browsing other boards and I saw the payroll thing pop up. Was not directed at you, but at BoSox fans in general.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Well, I proved last year that it's almost a given that at least 1-2 of the "final four" teams in the playoffs had the highest payrolls (usually top 5) dating all the way back to 1990 (only researched back to that year). There were maybe 1 or 2 years in the last 15 where 1 or more teams in the top 5 in payroll didn't make the "final four", for instance when Anaheim won it. But those couple of years are an anomaly, it's almost always a given that huge payroll teams like NY, ATL, Boston, or even Florida (when they won it 1997 they were top 5 in payroll) will be in the playoffs. Hence, more often than not, you can easily correlate $ to making the playoffs. As far as who wins the WS/League is a coin flip from there, as evidenced by the D.backs 2001 and Marlins last year. But I don't think it's wrong to say that "little" playoff teams will almost always be underdogs in the playoffs. So all in all, you can buy a spot in the playoffs (Boston/NY, not sure about Stros/Cards), which is sad because whatever happened to bringing up a kid through the farm system?Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Yankees won, OH MY GOSH LOOK AT THEIR PAYROLL! Funny, I didn't hear that when the Marlins beat the Yanks. Then I heard about HEART. The HEART of the Marlins pitchers, the HEART of the team in general. Same thing when the Angels beat the Yanks. I didn't hear anyone complaining about the Yankees payroll then! Boston's payroll is probably more than the Angels and Marlins combined at the time they beat the Yankees (not going by actual stats, too lazy to check it up), but all you hear from Boston is YANKEE PAYROLL. Before the series I heard how "This is the Year!" and how Boston was gonna pitch the Yankee bats into submission, now I hear Payroll complaints. Don't complain now Sox fans, I don't hear the complaints coming from the Marlins fans.
That comment was made by some guy who's made one post recently, so I'll assume that this is directed at me, in which case I again state that I AM NOT USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE, JUST POINTING OUT THAT THE SOX ARE A DISTANT SECOND.
faenix: explain?
I was just reading this thread, listening to sportstalk radio and browsing other boards and I saw the payroll thing pop up. Was not directed at you, but at BoSox fans in general.
Well, if the kids deserve the money then yes they should be paid well. The Yankees aren't a good example, most of their players are overpaid because of "George" syndrome, on any normal team they would be well compensated commensurate to their talent, and not overpaid. What I'm getting at is: how come teams are more likely to "buy" a championship than earn it? Teams like Boston and NY are overloaded with free agents, they just buy the superstars, throw them into a big mix and say "Now win". Whereas teams like Oakland have players like the Big 3 who have always been with them, or a team like the Twins. IMHO I think that baseball is entering a state of ruin due to the "George" syndrome, where teams just buy half their team and whore out their farm system to get the superstars they want. It takes something away from the game, in a purist point of view, when teams can amass All Star teams vs homegrown/drafted talent. But I guess this just comes from not having a hard cap. What would be nice is if teams were limited to, at most, two superstar signings per year (how superstar is defined is debatable). The rest of the team, you would have to earn through either the draft or farm system, and it would level the playing field more for small market teams.Originally posted by: ThePresence
Bringing up a kid through the farm system does not equal lower payroll. If the kid is good, he becomes a free agent and then asks for the huge check. Throughout the Yankee run, the core of their team has been kids that came up through the system. Pettite, Posada, Bernie, Jeter and Rivera. Just because they came up through the system does not mean that they are not worth big bucks.
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Well, if the kids deserve the money then yes they should be paid well. The Yankees aren't a good example, most of their players are overpaid because of "George" syndrome, on any normal team they would be well compensated commensurate to their talent, and not overpaid. What I'm getting at is: how come teams are more likely to "buy" a championship than earn it? Teams like Boston and NY are overloaded with free agents, they just buy the superstars, throw them into a big mix and say "Now win". Whereas teams like Oakland have players like the Big 3 who have always been with them, or a team like the Twins. IMHO I think that baseball is entering a state of ruin due to the "George" syndrome, where teams just buy half their team and whore out their farm system to get the superstars they want. It takes something away from the game, in a purist point of view, when teams can amass All Star teams vs homegrown/drafted talent. But I guess this just comes from not having a hard cap. What would be nice is if teams were limited to, at most, two superstar signings per year (how superstar is defined is debatable). The rest of the team, you would have to earn through either the draft or farm system, and it would level the playing field more for small market teams.Originally posted by: ThePresence
Bringing up a kid through the farm system does not equal lower payroll. If the kid is good, he becomes a free agent and then asks for the huge check. Throughout the Yankee run, the core of their team has been kids that came up through the system. Pettite, Posada, Bernie, Jeter and Rivera. Just because they came up through the system does not mean that they are not worth big bucks.
Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Nice post... Just realize that big market owners aren't the only ones to blame. Many of the small market team owners are doing entirely the wrong thing, as well; They buy a team and figure the best way to make money off of it is have as low a payroll as possible. Thing is, this doesn't work, you don't get nearly as much money back.
Yes good point. Vendors will charge ridiculously high prices in order to recoup some of the money for the high payroll, especially on teams that just buy free agents. Also, ticket prices are obscene in Boston, it's around $40 just for nosebleed which could get you great seats at a park like Citizen's Bank (Philly). It's all supply and demand I presume with the small stadium and all, but the player's salaries are a direct reflection of ticket pricing as well.Originally posted by: mattlear
Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Nice post... Just realize that big market owners aren't the only ones to blame. Many of the small market team owners are doing entirely the wrong thing, as well; They buy a team and figure the best way to make money off of it is have as low a payroll as possible. Thing is, this doesn't work, you don't get nearly as much money back.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
I think you nailed it right on the head (see, we can get along! ) How pissed do you guys get when you see one of these owner whine and complain that they can't make money in a certain market... and they want the taxpayers to build a new stadium for them - or else they will move the team to a new location.
Uhm, that's just total horsesh*t. If you can't make money on a professional sports team, you should sell the team to someone else. Plain and simple.
Bud Selig comes to mind. That guy spends NOTHING on his Brewers... and then wonders why they are out of it before May is over.
Even though I am a yankees fan, and I love the fact that George is willing to "do what it takes" (read: spend craploads of money) to win, it does hurt the sport. I think there really should be a HARD salary cap for all major sports. At least everyone would have a completely level playing field with respect to their major league teams.
Tickets and concessions are so damn expensive now... kids can't even afford to go to a baseball game. 4.50 for a hotdog? Come on... that's ridiculous.
Originally posted by: mattlear
Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Nice post... Just realize that big market owners aren't the only ones to blame. Many of the small market team owners are doing entirely the wrong thing, as well; They buy a team and figure the best way to make money off of it is have as low a payroll as possible. Thing is, this doesn't work, you don't get nearly as much money back.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
I think you nailed it right on the head (see, we can get along! ) How pissed do you guys get when you see one of these owner whine and complain that they can't make money in a certain market... and they want the taxpayers to build a new stadium for them - or else they will move the team to a new location.
Uhm, that's just total horsesh*t. If you can't make money on a professional sports team, you should sell the team to someone else. Plain and simple.
Bud Selig comes to mind. That guy spends NOTHING on his Brewers... and then wonders why they are out of it before May is over.
Even though I am a yankees fan, and I love the fact that George is willing to "do what it takes" (read: spend craploads of money) to win, it does hurt the sport. I think there really should be a HARD salary cap for all major sports. At least everyone would have a completely level playing field with respect to their major league teams.
Tickets and concessions are so damn expensive now... kids can't even afford to go to a baseball game. 4.50 for a hotdog? Come on... that's ridiculous.
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Good points, but you do realize that the Yankees drew record crowds this year even with prices what they are.
Well, the sellout at Yankee stadium is directly correlated to ARod... so even though the team is now at a ridiculous payroll they can still make money, it's the rich get richer and the poor get poorer theme.Originally posted by: mattlear
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Good points, but you do realize that the Yankees drew record crowds this year even with prices what they are.
Ya, I understand that... but it's still freaking expensive.
Like I said, I'm a big yankees fan, and I love the fact that George will spend money, but the cost of games is getting out of hand.
Look at the knicks in the NBA. The courtside seats were over $1k a game a few years ago (when they were actually a good team). They sold out like crazy. Now that the team is mediocre / sucks, they don't draw record crowds.
In the end, its the fans (especially the kids) who suffer from the snowballing salaries, ticket, and concession prices.
Sp33Demon, I was out in PacBell stadium in 2001, that is an awesome place. Very fan friendly... but wow does it get cold at night! I had a tshirt on until the 5th inning, and by the end of the game, I was bundled up in a sweatshirt and rubbing my hands together to stay warm!
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: mattlear
Also, thePresence, NY should have had more sellouts than just this year over their "prestigous" history. You don't find it odd that a city with 17 million people (compared to Boston's 583K) just had its first sellout year? Let's face it, Boston is just more of a baseball oriented city (if you can even call it a city lol), they've been selling out for alot longer now, and don't use the excuse that Boston only has 38K seats to NY's 50, the ratio of 17 million to 583K is much greater than a 12K person/game difference. Honestly, if Fenway could hold 50 you could probably predict it would sell out every game as well.Originally posted by: ThePresence
You keep harping on this tired old theme.
How many professional franchises does Boston have? How many does NY have?
How many people went to Shea this year? Put together nearly six million people went to games this year. And, it's SPORTS, not every one is fanatic about a baseball team.
A better question is - who draws better on the road? How many sellouts did NY create on the road? How many first time ever sellouts did NY make this year on the road?
Originally posted by: TheAudit
That was primarily due to Arod's arrival (sellouts on the road). NY has bandwagoners all across the nation, think about it, 17 million people all have relatives, right? And how many people lived in NYC before moving to other states (I can name 5 people right off the top of my head) who are still Yankee fans? Factor in the Asians who want to watch Matsui, and you have your answer right there. Also, to say the Mets split attendance with NYY is true, but even if you split the city down the middle (which isn't even a good example b/c there is a much greater %NYY than NYM fans) NY would still have EIGHT and a half MILLION which is still only 1 million behind the 2nd largest metro in the US, Los Angeles. If you're a baseball oriented city, let's face it, 8 million + is more than enough people to sell out 50K every night in a rapid baseball city. Hell, if there were 8 million people in Boston instead of 583K guaranteed nosebleed seats would be $50 and up. Let's just face it, Bostonians are bigger fans of their baseball team than NYers. You can give all the excuses you want about "other sports teams" but the numbers don't lie.Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: mattlear
Also, thePresence, NY should have had more sellouts than just this year over their "prestigous" history. You don't find it odd that a city with 17 million people (compared to Boston's 583K) just had its first sellout year? Let's face it, Boston is just more of a baseball oriented city (if you can even call it a city lol), they've been selling out for alot longer now, and don't use the excuse that Boston only has 38K seats to NY's 50, the ratio of 17 million to 583K is much greater than a 12K person/game difference. Honestly, if Fenway could hold 50 you could probably predict it would sell out every game as well.Originally posted by: ThePresence
You keep harping on this tired old theme.
How many professional franchises does Boston have? How many does NY have?
How many people went to Shea this year? Put together nearly six million people went to games this year. And, it's SPORTS, not every one is fanatic about a baseball team.
A better question is - who draws better on the road? How many sellouts did NY create on the road? How many first time ever sellouts did NY make this year on the road?
Yankee Stadium seats 56,000 and change, Fenway seats about 35,000. Yes, of course I will make that point, the ratio argument is ridiculous. No, I will not assume that Fenway would sell out every game if it seated 56,000. Also, Yankee Stadium is in The Bronx, it's a real pain in the neck to get to. I'm not trying to take anything away from Boston, there is no doubt that Boston is a great Baseball town.Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Also, thePresence, NY should have had more sellouts than just this year over their "prestigous" history. You don't find it odd that a city with 17 million people (compared to Boston's 583K) just had its first sellout year? Let's face it, Boston is just more of a baseball oriented city (if you can even call it a city lol), they've been selling out for alot longer now, and don't use the excuse that Boston only has 38K seats to NY's 50, the ratio of 17 million to 583K is much greater than a 12K person/game difference. Honestly, if Fenway could hold 50 you could probably predict it would sell out every game as well.
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Yankee Stadium seats 56,000 and change, Fenway seats about 35,000. Yes, of course I will make that point, the ratio argument is ridiculous. No, I will not assume that Fenway would sell out every game if it seated 56,000. Also, Yankee Stadium is in The Bronx, it's a real pain in the neck to get to. I'm not trying to take anything away from Boston, there is no doubt that Boston is a great Baseball town.Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Also, thePresence, NY should have had more sellouts than just this year over their "prestigous" history. You don't find it odd that a city with 17 million people (compared to Boston's 583K) just had its first sellout year? Let's face it, Boston is just more of a baseball oriented city (if you can even call it a city lol), they've been selling out for alot longer now, and don't use the excuse that Boston only has 38K seats to NY's 50, the ratio of 17 million to 583K is much greater than a 12K person/game difference. Honestly, if Fenway could hold 50 you could probably predict it would sell out every game as well.
OK. Your demographics on Yankee fans are ridiculous. I'm sure there are just tens of millions of displaced NYers across the country. :roll: Errr...no. Relatives of NYers love the Yankees too? Ha! My relatives in the who live in NY aren't even all Yankee fans (a third are Mets fans). My relatives in Cleveland are Indians fans and my cousins in Austin are Rangers fans and so on...I have NO idea where you are going with that one. Asians are Yankee fans because of Matsui? Now you're just being stereotypical and stupid. What about Kaz Matsui on the Mets and Ichiro in Seattle? What about those millions of Korean fans rooting for the Red Sox because Byung-Hyun Kim is there? Wait, that's ridiculous you say? Yes, that's my point.Originally posted by: SP33Demon
That was primarily due to Arod's arrival (sellouts on the road). NY has bandwagoners all across the nation, think about it, 17 million people all have relatives, right? And how many people lived in NYC before moving to other states (I can name 5 people right off the top of my head) who are still Yankee fans? Factor in the Asians who want to watch Matsui, and you have your answer right there. Also, to say the Mets split attendance with NYY is true, but even if you split the city down the middle (which isn't even a good example b/c there is a much greater %NYY than NYM fans) NY would still have EIGHT and a half MILLION which is still only 1 million behind the 2nd largest metro in the US, Los Angeles. If you're a baseball oriented city, let's face it, 8 million + is more than enough people to sell out 50K every night in a rapid baseball city. Hell, if there were 8 million people in Boston instead of 583K guaranteed nosebleed seats would be $50 and up. Let's just face it, Bostonians are bigger fans of their baseball team than NYers. You can give all the excuses you want about "other sports teams" but the numbers don't lie.
Originally posted by: geecee
OK. Your demographics on Yankee fans are ridiculous. I'm sure there are just tens of millions of displaced NYers across the country. :roll: Errr...no. Relatives of NYers love the Yankees too? Ha! My relatives in the who live in NY aren't even all Yankee fans (a third are Mets fans). My relatives in Cleveland are Indians fans and my cousins in Austin are Rangers fans and so on...I have NO idea where you are going with that one. Asians are Yankee fans because of Matsui? Now you're just being stereotypical and stupid. What about Kaz Matsui on the Mets and Ichiro in Seattle? What about those millions of Korean fans rooting for the Red Sox because Byung-Hyun Kim is there? Wait, that's ridiculous you say? Yes, that's my point.Originally posted by: SP33Demon
That was primarily due to Arod's arrival (sellouts on the road). NY has bandwagoners all across the nation, think about it, 17 million people all have relatives, right? And how many people lived in NYC before moving to other states (I can name 5 people right off the top of my head) who are still Yankee fans? Factor in the Asians who want to watch Matsui, and you have your answer right there. Also, to say the Mets split attendance with NYY is true, but even if you split the city down the middle (which isn't even a good example b/c there is a much greater %NYY than NYM fans) NY would still have EIGHT and a half MILLION which is still only 1 million behind the 2nd largest metro in the US, Los Angeles. If you're a baseball oriented city, let's face it, 8 million + is more than enough people to sell out 50K every night in a rapid baseball city. Hell, if there were 8 million people in Boston instead of 583K guaranteed nosebleed seats would be $50 and up. Let's just face it, Bostonians are bigger fans of their baseball team than NYers. You can give all the excuses you want about "other sports teams" but the numbers don't lie.
Also, the points that someone else made here about the disparity in the size of the ballparks is a good one. Yankee Stadium seats roughly 1 1/2 times as many as Fenway. Much harder to sell out. Factor in that there is another baseball team in NY makes it all the more understandable. Not to mention that NYC is so spread out, it makes it difficult for many in the outer boroughs to make it to the weeknight games and still be able to get home and get some sleep before work the next morning. Lastly, the Yankees have always been a big draw on the road (before and after ARod) if for no other reason than the local fans want to see their home team beat up on the Yanks! I won't deny that having the highest payroll in baseball and a star-studded lineup also has something to do with that.
Agreed. But at playoff time, nothing's better.Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing: There are other things to do in NYC at night then going to a baseball game.
Originally posted by: geecee
Agreed. But at playoff time, nothing's better.Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing: There are other things to do in NYC at night then going to a baseball game.
Originally posted by: ThePresence
One more thing: There are other things to do in NYC at night then going to a baseball game.