*** OFFICIAL 2011 MLB Season Thread ***

[Perknose]

Raullll!

Ties it up in the eight with a clutch 2 home HR, his second of the game, then wins it in the 10th with a double! My man love for Ibanez cascades out of my shorts.

Q: Who has the most RBI's in the major leagues over the last 3 weeks?

A: Why, Raul Ibanez, of course! :awe:

 

[jman19]

I've always liked Ibanez. An underrated player who, unfortunately, had to spend the height of his career on some lousy teams.

 

[rcpratt]

These quotes are hilarious.

"I don't hit many homers anymore, and I wanted to make sure that it stayed fair," Ordonez said. "After that, he was yelling at me to run faster, and I told him that I'm old -- that's as fast as I run."I'm not going to show anyone up. That's not me."

Things calmed down until the seventh, when Guillen's solo homer made it 3-0.

"Magglio has 14 years in the major leagues," said Guillen, one of Ordonez's closest friends. "You don't tell him to run. I respect people when they respect us. If you don't respect us, you don't get it."

So yeah, that's what happened.

More colorful quotes:

“I was upset because he was yelling at Magglio when Magglio hit the home run,” Guillen said. “But nobody in the ballpark knows if it's going fair or foul, so he has to stand maybe at home plate. (Weaver) was yelling, 'Run, run, you have to run the (expletive) bases.' Magglio has 13, 14 years in the big leagues. You don't have to yell at him."

Leyland:

“I've never seen Magglio Ordonez show anybody up in the six years I've been here,” he said. “I've never seen it. So I doubt he was doing that today. I really sincerely believe that he was kind of looking to see if it was a foul ball. …
“Now, the second one, I think because of the exchange of words earlier with Magglio, I think Guillen probably put it on him a little bit.”

 

[Via]

Come on, man.

He was definitely showing him up. I just saw the replay.

If I was the Angel's manager I'd have thrown at another guy after Weaver was tossed.

 

[Perknose]

Stop being such a biased homer, rc, it's undignified.

Here's a quote that better sums up what went on:

Jose Valverde pitched the ninth for his 28th save in 28 tries, and [Tori] Hunter had the final word on a wild game.

"That was stupid -- it was all stupid. Everybody was stupid," he said. "That was unprofessional on both sides."

And here's the vid of Carlos Guillen being completely and utterly bush league towards Weaver.

 

[rcpratt]

I agree with Torii. When did I say that I didn't. Taking the video of Guillen's home run with no background is meaningless.

I'll summarize my opinions so you all can pick them apart instead of vaguely calling them bullshit:

1) Magglio hit a homer. Magglio wasn't sure if it was fair. Magglio watched to see if it stayed fair. Magglio did nothing wrong.
2) Weaver talked shit to Magglio, telling him to run and called him a fucker later in the game. I consider this the first "bush league" event in the game, as people like to say. He was also talking shit to Cabrera during the next at-bat.
3) Guillen hit a home run. Guillen watched home run. Guillen flipped bat. Guillen motioned towards dugout. Guillen stutter stepped, facing Weaver. Guillen's actions were bush league. Guillen took it up another notch.
4) Weaver throws at Avila's head. Weaver has pinpoint accuracy. Weaver knows what he was aiming at. Weaver's actions were bush league. Weaver took it up another notch. Weaver should be suspended for a start.
5) Aybar bunted leading off the bottom of the inning. Aybar got on base. Considering the above events, I really have no issue with this.

As I see it, the score is Weaver 2, Guillen 1. /shrug

Tigers won the game. Tigers picked up another game on the Indians and Sox. JV is going to win the ALCY. Life is good.

 

[Perknose]

I agree with Torii. When did I say that I didn't. Taking the video of Guillen's home run with no background is meaningless.

I'll summarize my opinions so you all can pick them apart instead of vaguely calling them bullshit:

1) Magglio hit a homer. Magglio wasn't sure if it was fair. Magglio watched to see if it stayed fair. Magglio did nothing wrong.
2) Weaver talked shit to Magglio, telling him to run and called him a fucker later in the game. I consider this the first "bush league" event in the game, as people like to say. He was also talking shit to Cabrera during the next at-bat.
3) Guillen hit a home run. Guillen watched home run. Guillen flipped bat. Guillen motioned towards dugout. Guillen stutter stepped, facing Weaver. Guillen's actions were bush league. Guillen took it up another notch.
4) Weaver throws at Avila's head. Weaver has pinpoint accuracy. Weaver knows what he was aiming at. Weaver's actions were bush league. Weaver took it up another notch. Weaver should be suspended for a start.
5) Aybar bunted leading off the bottom of the inning. Aybar got on base. Considering the above events, I really have no issue with this.

As I see it, the score is Weaver 2, Guillen 1. /shrug

Tigers won the game. Tigers picked up another game on the Indians and Sox. JV is going to win the ALCY. Life is good.

Ok, fair enough. This is far from the impression you left in your previous series of posts, and clears things up.

Btw, nobody, including me, called your previous take bullshit.

Here's my counterpoint:

1. Ordonez hit a long ball. Whether or not he lingered legitimately to see if it would stay fair (I'm leaning towards yes), Weaver took offense and yelled at him. In the hyper-competitive arena of pro sports, such a misunderstanding can happen. Bush league not found.

2. Guillen pulls his childish show-up dance after hitting his homer. Bush league absolutely found.

3. Weaver throws OVER Aviles head, not at it, in retaliation. This is age-old baseball protocol, expected by all sides in cases of being shown up, even if it is now, of late, grounds for ejection. You know it, I know it, all the players know it. Bush league not found.

Weaver was intemperate and maybe wrong, but not Bush League. Guillen was 100% Bush League, without a doubt.

In MLB, up until the eighties or nineties, he'd be a marked man by the Angels forever. More to the point, up until then, NO major leaguer would have dreamed of acting like he did. There was a code, which still exists under the modern safety and PC veneer. He broke it in the most childish way possible.

As for what Weaver did, he didn't break any b-ball code. Bob Gibson and all of the greats used to YELL at batters to get in the damn box if they took too long, and would brush them back with the next pitch if they didn't. This was never considered Bush League.

What Guillen did, however, was Bush League showboating in the extreme.

Btw, if you're going to throw AT a batter's head, you throw behind their head. Weaver didn't.

 

[rcpratt]

Weaver's pitch was no more than 4 inches over Avila's head. I personally think that's incredibly dangerous, but I guess that's open for interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised to see him suspended. If you want to send a message, throw at someone's feet or behind them.

 

[Wanescotting]

near the head is indeed called for when this happens

 

[rcpratt]

Risking a career ending injury to an innocent dude is called for?

Sorry, my experience with baseball unwritten rules teaches me that knees, feet, ribs, behind the batter is fine. I don't think head is ever called for.

 

[Wanescotting]

Risking a career ending injury to an innocent dude is called for?

Sorry, my experience with baseball unwritten rules teaches me that knees, feet, ribs, behind the batter is fine. I don't think head is ever called for.

meh, I didn't see the pitch in question, but I image the pitcher was careful and "dialed up" a scare but do not kill pitch

 

[rcpratt]

I guess that's open for interpretation. It was a 92 mph fastball 3 inches above his head.

 

[Wanescotting]

I guess that's open for interpretation. It was a 92 mph fastball 3 inches above his head.

ninety-fucking-two? and three inches, that is indeed questionable.

 

[SP33Demon]

I guess that's open for interpretation. It was a 92 mph fastball 3 inches above his head.

I doubt it would have hit him even if he stood there. Weaver was sending a message not to show him up. Guillen was the emo brat who overreacted to Weaver telling Maggs to run. That's between Maggs and Weaver, Maggs is a big boy, let him talk to Weaver after the game about it. Guillen isn't doing his team any favors by acting like a d-bag in front of the whole stadium on national TV. Uncalled for IMO, nobody except an emo d-bag watches a homerun like that. Then we have Verlander getting emo over a bunt and calling it "Bush League". Then in the same interview, he says he can understand that Aybar may have done it to start a rally since they were down 3-0. No shit, sherlock? So which is it?

Bunch of fragile egos over in Detroit, Leyland may have to order some Gerber's to go with the Gatorade.

 

[SP33Demon]

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/14409/bourn-a-more-valuable-player-than-pence

Schoenfield completely misses the point. He starts the article saying Bourn is overall a better player than Pence because he has a higher WAR since 2009. Then he focuses in on on base % "since 2009", which he says Bourn is better than Pence (.348 vs .342, HUGE diff there). He completely skirts around a bunch of the other "facts":

A) When factoring in Power (Slg), Pence destroys Bourn in OPS+ career: 117 to 89.

B) Yes Bourn has a higher WAR because of his stolen bases and defense, not with his bat or even his On base % (see D). Bourn is a lifetime .271 hitter, Pence .290, which makes Pence in every way superior with the bat.

C) Looking at the big picture, the Phillies have a centerfielder that is better than Bourn. In fact, he has the same exact rWAR as Bourn "since 2009" yet bats 10 points higher and easily beats Bourn in OPS+, 104 to 89 career. This writer is smug in ignoring power numbers and cashing in on Bourn's 2011 career year.

D) This writer is ignoring large sample sizes i.e. career numbers. Pence has a slightly better career OBP than Bourn (.339 vs .338). For all intents and purposes, they are even. Victorino is better than both at .346.

E) Durability: Bourn is more injury prone than Pence, he fractured his ankle last year and missed half of the season. In fact, since both have played 5 full seasons: Pence has almost 3/4 of an entire season more than Bourn in Plate Attempts: 2868 vs 2403, or 465 more PA's. Bourn has only played in more than 150 games once, Pence 3 of 4 years.

E) So if Bourn isn't better at on base % (contrary to what Schoenfield would have you believe), isn't better at hitting (average AND power), isn't more durable, then what is he better at to make his WAR so high? A: Base stealing and defense. He had an amazing year in 2010, posting a 2.6 r-dWAR (defensive WAR) and 1.1 this year. Yes, he's better than Victorino in this category and he steals massive amounts of bases. This does make him overall better than Pence. However, the Phillies TEAM does not need help in these categories (maybe some defense, but the pitching easily makes up for that), they need help with the bat. And Pence is head and shoulders above Bourn at the plate. Bourn may steal a lot of bases, but in playoff baseball he won't be getting on base to do anything with the caliber of pitching he will see. You will have to hit your way on.

F) He says the Braves may have given up less which I could agree with. However, these are all single A prospects and the ones the Phils gave up had their flaws as well. Neither team gave up any prospects that I liked. Now, the Indians for Jimenez... they really took a gamble by giving away some high caliber pitching prospects to Colorado.

 

[SP33Demon]

Raullll!

Ties it up in the eight with a clutch 2 home HR, his second of the game, then wins it in the 10th with a double! My man love for Ibanez cascades out of my shorts.

Q: Who has the most RBI's in the major leagues over the last 3 weeks?

A: Why, Raul Ibanez, of course! :awe:

Raul is completely on fire. This really pours waters over the Ibanez vs Dom Brown flaming blogosphere. Chalk one up for Chawlie, sending Dom back down to Triple A was the right decision. And blogosphere can suck on Pence scoring the GW run as well.

 

[rcpratt]

I doubt it would have hit him even if he stood there. Weaver was sending a message not to show him up. Guillen was the emo brat who overreacted to Weaver telling Maggs to run. That's between Maggs and Weaver, Maggs is a big boy, let him talk to Weaver after the game about it. Guillen isn't doing his team any favors by acting like a d-bag in front of the whole stadium on national TV. Uncalled for IMO, nobody except an emo d-bag watches a homerun like that. Then we have Verlander getting emo over a bunt and calling it "Bush League". Then in the same interview, he says he can understand that Aybar may have done it to start a rally since they were down 3-0. No shit, sherlock? So which is it?

Bunch of fragile egos over in Detroit, Leyland may have to order some Gerber's to go with the Gatorade.

So Weaver and Magglio's thing is between Weaver and Magglio, but it's fine for Weaver to pull Avila into Weaver and Guillen's thing?

But I agree, it wouldn't have hit him if he hadn't moved. Never said it would have. Anyways, I've pretty much exhausted my opining on this subject.

As for amusing quotes, Weaver said after the game, "I’m not going to try to hit someone..." Um, okay.

 

[SP33Demon]

So Weaver and Magglio's thing is between Weaver and Magglio, but it's fine for Weaver to pull Avila into Weaver and Guillen's thing?

But I agree, it wouldn't have hit him if he hadn't moved. Never said it would have. Anyways, I've pretty much exhausted my opining on this subject.

As for amusing quotes, Weaver said after the game, "I’m not going to try to hit someone..." Um, okay.

Weaver barking at Magglio happens a lot like Perk said, and he didn't exactly publicly diss Maggs. Guillen standing there for 3 seconds to show up Weaver = insta-brushback pitch, I don't care what era we're talking about. Avila is lucky it wasn't Bob Gibson because he'd be in the hospital b/c of Guillen's stupidity. There are some unwritten rules of baseball and Guillen chose not to abide by that. Like Leyland said, the game will take care of itself. I also like how you neglected the fact that Verlander yelled at Aybar from the dugout and pointed to his back, which implies he's going to hit him next time they face each other. JV got emo over a bunt and called it "Bush League" which prompted him to act like a child in the dugout.

All in all, it shows that both pitchers don't have the mental toughness to win in the playoffs. When was the last time you saw Lincecum or Halladay barking at a player and losing their focus? Reminded me of the mental meltdown by Jonathan Sanchez of the Giants in the playoffs last year by taking offense to Chase Utley flipping the ball back (which Utley did not do to slight him). Fragile egos make it tough to win and he lost that game as a result.

 

[Perknose]

I don't want to drag this out any further than this, but, rc, you keep saying or implying things that simply aren't true:

As for amusing quotes, Weaver said after the game, "I’m not going to try to hit someone..." Um, okay.

He didn't. As I said before and you should know, you throw behind a batter's head if you're actually trying to bean them. Weaver did not come close to throwing behind Aviles.

Weaver's pitch was no more than 4 inches over Avila's head.

It was a 92 mph fastball 3 inches above his head.

Lol, rc, your account is like the size of the fish that got away in reverse! Is the distance 2 inches yet?

The ESPN vid link of the incident I previously posted seems busted now, but here it is on youtube.

You can stop/start enough to see that it CLEARLY was far more than 3-4 inches over his head, even with the extreme foreshortening of the straight from behind angle.

So Weaver and Magglio's thing is between Weaver and Magglio, but it's fine for Weaver to pull Avila into Weaver and Guillen's thing?

Do0d, do you really not know baseball protocol? In cases like this, when a pitcher gets bush league shown up, it's the next batter that pays the price. Do you really not know this? It's the way players have been handling this for decades.

Don Baylor anecdote illustrating this:

Two targets were Dick Pole and John Denny, who threw at Baylor's head. The other was Dennis Leonard of Kansas City. "He hit me the first pitch after Sal Bando homered on a 3-0 pitch," recalled Baylor. "When the pitcher doesn't even look in for a sign, you knew you were going to get hit.

 

[rcpratt]

Eh, forget it, I said I was done.

 

[goobernoodles]

Man, the Orioles really outdid themselves this year...

 

[SP33Demon]

As was clear in my previous post, I don't have an issue with Weaver going after the next batter. What I had an issue with is the hypocrisy of speeddemon saying that Guillen isn't allowed to stick up for Magglio (not saying he did it the right way).

Guillen is just as fragile an ego as JV and JW if he thinks he needs to stand there and watch it. Last I checked, Maggs is a grown man who can handle himself. Did Chase Utley need any help when Sanchez was barking at him at first base? Of course not, he just ignored it and helped win the game like real men do. All Guillen had to do was talk with the bat, not stand there like a Little Leaguer and bark back. The fact that Weaver even said something to Maggs showed that he was frustrated. Detroit was already in his head which is all that matters. Now they risk Verlander getting suspended for publicly telling Aybar he'd hit him, it's all just stupid unnecessary sht which dominoed by Guillen.

It's like Brandon Phillips calling the Cardinals bitches last year. Nothing good came out of it and Dusty Baker told him to stfu. Many players these days are fragile primadonnas who lack maturity. Yesterday was a good example.

 

[SP33Demon]

Man, the Orioles really outdid themselves this year...

Well, at least they have the best defensive catcher in the Majors. How long he stays an Oriole is the question...

 

[SP33Demon]

Astros lefty Wandy Rodriguez is expected to clear waivers, with over $38MM left on his deal through 2014. Just to play devil's advocate: Wandy is a bargain this year with just $2.27MM remaining, so it's possible one contender could decide they can stomach three years and $36MM from 2012-14, and make a claim.

One thing I heard on MLBTV is that the Stros would still require prospects if a team made a claim on him (like the NYY) off waivers. I was under the impression that all a team had to do was take on the money, but nope. Apparently the team that owns the player can still prevent the claim if the team wanting that player doesn't meet their demands.

 

[BeauJangles]

One thing I heard on MLBTV is that the Stros would still require prospects if a team made a claim on him (like the NYY) off waivers. I was under the impression that all a team had to do was take on the money, but nope. Apparently the team that owns the player can still prevent the claim if the team wanting that player doesn't meet their demands.

I'm pretty surprised the Yankees stood pat in the end. The Cubs surprised me too. Why hold onto Pena when he's on a one-year deal and there are multiple teams interested?