**OFFICIAL** Diablo 3 Thread

[diesbudt]

Maybe the generation that was brought up on world of warcraft is different. I loved games like gauntlet legends, final fantasy, and chrono trigger back in the 90s. Replayed them at least a dozen times. Played pokemon who knows how many hours. I loved diablo 1 and diablo 2. What do all of these RPGs have in common? You could easily destroy the content if you put extra time into it. It was not perfectly balanced. They were games that intentionally left a path for the player to steamroll past the final levels. To me, that is what makes a fun RPG. The ability to feel like a God on the hardest content.

In some ways, what made pokemon so sucessful also made Diablo2 sucessful. Was there an optimal pokemon team you could build that would steamroll the Elite 4? Probably. But I remade countless amounts of games to see how many different combinations I could beat the game with. Same with Diablo 2. There were3 skill trees with 5 or 6 tiers of skills for each tree. You could have so many different builds, and with 9 classes, there were hundreds of hours of re-playability if you wanted to try all the combinations.

Actually even Final Fantasy, sometimes bosses would just /win and requrie a restart. Or an exact strategy to have a chance. aka hard.

Also you can always create your own challenges. GO through the Elite 4 with just 3 pokemon.

And lastly, you just described D3. With a lot of time Even inferno can be steamrolled with a build on almost each class. Just because it isn't as obvious via leveling but gear obtaining doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Plus Id rather have a long grind game that is hard that one that I can mash just 1-2 buttons and win even with a subpar build (D2)

It is also not "generation" I played games since I was 3. This is before NES. And yet I agree that those games were too easy. Sure I enjoy a nice grind of mindless mashing. But those get boring easy. No challenge.

 

[EDUSAN]

i know what HACP means and i think i agree

he is not saying "make the games easy enough so we can steamroll every boss with every possible build we can think of", he is saying "make the game easy enough so we can steamroll every boss with every possible build we can think of IF we think it right, get the right items for it and learn to play the set (+skill involved)"

 

[Hacp]

Actually even Final Fantasy, sometimes bosses would just /win and requrie a restart. Or an exact strategy to have a chance. aka hard.

Guess what? You could always reload the last save point and roll the dice. May take an hour but you'll be able to beat it.

And lastly, you just described D3. With a lot of time Even inferno can be steamrolled with a build on almost each class. Just because it isn't as obvious via leveling but gear obtaining doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

But what made Diablo 2 fun? There were an endless amount of builds you could try beating the end boss with.

Plus Id rather have a long grind game that is hard that one that I can mash just 1-2 buttons and win even with a subpar build (D2)

I suggest the Final Fantasy MMOs, not action RPGs.

I think Diablo 3 is heading in the right direction with the current nerfs. I'll wait for another round of nerfs and the next expansion before I even think of picking it up. Who knows, in a year or two, they might have iterated enough to finally get it right.

 

[darkewaffle]

Want to talk about risk? Try Hardcore mode.

Made it to 55barb and died in A2 hell with no AH items. Was quite fun really but kind of takes the "unforgiving" thing too far imo when you take into consideration how easily something as simple as a lag spike, disconnect, or cooldown can get you killed and, more importantly, the amount of time required to [legitimately] progress. Which I'm ok with, it's just hard to justify playing it when it would take me upwards of, what, 20-30 hours just to get back to where I was previously and work on making it further. Was fun once at least but I don't have that much time to devote to it.

But it's also a different kind of risk, one of consequence rather than difficulty. A risk of consequence means that when you lose, you lose big. But you could still pair that with a game that is easy and it wouldn't really matter if you simply don't have a chance to lose in the first place; to me that's not a really enjoyable system.

The risk of difficulty is when the game can actually beat you. Which is normally coupled with some sort of consequence, but doesn't have to be necessarily because you're already spending time.

 

[diesbudt]

Guess what? You could always reload the last save point and roll the dice. May take an hour but you'll be able to beat it.


But what made Diablo 2 fun? There were an endless amount of builds you could try beating the end boss with.


I suggest the Final Fantasy MMOs, not action RPGs.

I think Diablo 3 is heading in the right direction with the current nerfs. I'll wait for another round of nerfs and the next expansion before I even think of picking it up. Who knows, in a year or two, they might have iterated enough to finally get it right.

Diablo 2 was not fun for its mass of horrible builds with 1-2 useful builds. Most RPG players have the "need" to maximize what they do. This means they always go towards the "better spec" and always maximize that. It has been shown since the dawn of gaming. This is why sites like Gamefaqs, and such still exist as that is where all the "best set-ups" are shared which people use. Honestly I had less fun playing D2 than D3. I could never get into playing beyond the first playthrough. It just didnt have the "fun" feeling when killing things, like some FPS and D3 (to me) has.

Also D3 will probably not be nerfed anymore. I have already finished Act 4 because inferno is pretty easy now with last set of nerfs. But with paragon mode, at level "160" you will have near an extra 200ish stats in each category along with enough magic find and gold find you dont have to waste stat points on gear in that category. (And for the record, I have 3 different builds I play on my inferno characters. That is 1 more than the D2 character I used)

The final fantasy MMO is no where near in the same ballpark as this game and has no ability to be compared for such a reason.

Also Final Fantasy can rarly be called an action RPG when it has had more versions be turn based than not.

 

[fustercluck]

Seems like the maintenance for this big of a patch is sure to go into overtime, like it'll actually end at 9pm or something. Was the 1.0.3 patch delivered on time? I don't recall.

First few days of the patch is the time to make a nice amount of gold

 

[Hacp]

Diablo 2 was not fun for its mass of horrible builds with 1-2 useful builds. Most RPG players have the "need" to maximize what they do. This means they always go towards the "better spec" and always maximize that. It has been shown since the dawn of gaming. This is why sites like Gamefaqs, and such still exist as that is where all the "best set-ups" are shared which people use. Honestly I had less fun playing D2 than D3. I could never get into playing beyond the first playthrough. It just didnt have the "fun" feeling when killing things, like some FPS and D3 (to me) has.

Define useful? How was a build useful? You could clear everything fast with 7-8 different sorc builds without ever trading for gear. Is that useful? You could never do that with how they put enrage timers on bosses now.

When LOD was released, I started a new assassin character and had Baal Hell defeated by two weeks using a trap build that was considered suboptimal at the time. Three months later, there were just as many channels full of people in the US-EAST(XXX) lobby and the trade channels had as many people in them as there were two weeks in.

Also Final Fantasy can rarly be called an action RPG when it has had more versions be turn based than not.

I don't consider Diablo 3 to be an action RPG in its current state. It feels like WoW-lite. If I wanted to play WoW, I would just play that game. It seems like you are expecting an action RPG to play like an MMO, which is why you probably enjoyed Diablo 3. I suggest going back to World of Warcraft, you'll enjoy it even more.

 

[silverpig]

Servers are up. I am in game now.

 

[diesbudt]

Define useful? How was a build useful? You could clear everything fast with 7-8 different sorc builds without ever trading for gear. Is that useful? You could never do that with how they put enrage timers on bosses now.

When LOD was released, I started a new assassin character and had Baal Hell defeated by two weeks using a trap build that was considered suboptimal at the time. Three months later, there were just as many channels full of people in the US-EAST(XXX) lobby and the trade channels had as many people in them as there were two weeks in.

I don't consider Diablo 3 to be an action RPG in its current state. It feels like WoW-lite. If I wanted to play WoW, I would just play that game. It seems like you are expecting an action RPG to play like an MMO, which is why you probably enjoyed Diablo 3. I suggest going back to World of Warcraft, you'll enjoy it even more.

It is an action RPG. It has RPG elements. And action Elements. Therefore it is an action RPG. Call it WoW-lite if you want, but it has little to do with world of warcraft, and is in a while different genre of gaming.

D3 is NOT an MMO. I enjoyed it BECAUSE it was not an MMO. And it was fun to kill things and not just faceroll through everything even bosses. An MMO does not mean hundreds of players online at once, it means a static world in which you can at times run into them without having to enter/leave/join a new game. So I liked D3 because of what it had. It is nothing like WoW, and I no longer enjoy WoW, yet still find D3 fun to just kill a few things for an hour or 2 here and there. An MMO also allows one to play with hundreds at once if allowed, D3 limits to 4. (4 is not massive). So you can call D3 a MORPG if you want. But not a MMORPG.

Saying things like this shows ignorance. "Go back to wow youll like it better" When that isn't true. D3 is nothing like WoW. And before you throw in the "skill cooldowns and spell names" arguments everyone likes to try. Remember:

A) This was to limit the games faceroll status to be more non /smash 1 button as I potion chug (Thank god they removed that, that was incredibally boring) as they wanted to do away with the faceroll game idea, and go towards a more build matters and skill based game

B) A lot of spell names in WoW came from D2. So saying D3 is like WoW, is like saying WoW is like D2. Therefore, logic dictates by this, that D3 is like D2

C) Reguardless whether you want to believe it or not most of your arguments you are saying fits D3 just as much as any other game.

P.S. also there was no inferno difficulty in D2. I was able to clear all of Hell modes with all 5 chars with GASP no trading or Ah gear in D3. If Inferno difficulty was in D2, I bet gear would have been more prevelent to beat it.

 

[fustercluck]

Servers are up. I am in game now.

So they are! Over 2 hours early!

Also hoping all the D3 whiners go to Guild Wars 2 in a couple of days and leave us alone >_>. I mean, there have been many good arguments against D3, a lot of them warranted, but it's time to give it all a rest.

 

[diesbudt]

So they are! Over 2 hours early!

Also hoping all the D3 whiners go to Guild Wars 2 in a couple of days and leave us alone >_>. I mean, there have been many good arguments against D3, a lot of them warranted, but it's time to give it all a rest.

What I dont understand is why do people have the tendency to say things like "leave" X to play Y? We as a people can play multiple games.

It isn't like each new game we play we sign a contract saying I will play no other game while playing this new one.

 

[Hacp]

P.S. also there was no inferno difficulty in D2. I was able to clear all of Hell modes with all 5 chars with GASP no trading or Ah gear in D3. If Inferno difficulty was in D2, I bet gear would have been more prevelent to beat it.

Lets be honest. Hell difficulty is not the last level. You aren't able to beat the whole game and get the best items in the game from just hell difficulty. From what I've experienced in Diablo 3 from watching friends struggle against elite packs and Boss enrage timers, Diablo 3 plays very similar to a point and click world of warcraft. I'm not talking names or skills. Just the feel of it with the Boss mechanics, again enrage timers, and the elite packs difficulty gives you a similar feel to world of warcraft. It feels like soloing heroic slave pens with a warlock in Tier 5 gear.

 

[diesbudt]

Lets be honest. Hell difficulty is not the last level. You aren't able to beat the whole game and get the best items in the game from just hell difficulty. From what I've experienced in Diablo 3 from watching friends struggle against elite packs and Boss enrage timers, Diablo 3 plays very similar to a point and click world of warcraft. I'm not talking names or skills. Just the feel of it with the Boss mechanics, again enrage timers, and the elite packs difficulty gives you a similar feel to world of warcraft. It feels like soloing heroic slave pens with a warlock in Tier 5 gear.

Well this is your issue.

A) Enrage timers are not excluse to WoW. Many RPG games have those. So saying this makes it "wow-like" is incorrect. Mario brothers for NES. Each level had an enrage timer too. Yet no one complains about that.

B) WoW isn't point to click. So You cannot compare the games in that aspect. Especially since Warcraft is an MMO and D3 isn't. This is a major difference between the 2.

C) The boss mechanics? All bosses in every game have "Mechanics" Did you ever play Metroid games? They had mechanics that you dodged/took advantage of and killed. Even back to Mario Brothers. Bowser shot fire and jumped. Your job was to dodge the fire and run under him to destroy the bridge. (Again fire is bad, even the NES days showed us this) All bosses have mechanics. This is an aspect of all PvE games.

D) (A warlock in Tier 5 soloed a 25-man Raid boss in Serpentshrine caverns). back on topic that difficulty is what makes the game fun. Is it is being difficult. I literally never felt challenged on D2. I would put my best aoe/surrounding attack on my right mouse button. Throw hp potions in each belt slot. Have a weapon that returned mana. Closed my eyes and just clicked away. Once potions were empty I teleported back to town, grabbed more, and repeated. /yawn too easy. Sure the killing was fun, but after 1 normal playthrough I had no desire to go to harder difficulties as they can be cheesed by just better gear someone gives you or a "boss run" from someone higher level or by outleveling the monsters. Games need challenges.

E) Just because your friend struggled doesn't mean the players that understand and rise up to the difficulty of this game had issues. I never did. Just like your "rpg" analogy. I farmed Act 1 inferno until I had the gear/stats to move onto act 2. Farmed Act 2 until I was ready for 3. Farmed Act 3 (and a nerf was added here) until I could finish Act 4. Same as leveling pokemon to rise to the next challenge. Or puishing your characters on final fantasy to be strong enough to kill some boss or an area where there are tough random encounters. Again Inferno ment to be much more difficult than Hell. and just like any rpg game, the best stuff drops closer to the end of the game near the ahrdest difficulty.

 

[ahdaniels76]

Anyone trying out the new game and auction house? Any first impressions?

 

[Hacp]

Well this is your issue.

A) Enrage timers are not excluse to WoW. Many RPG games have those. So saying this makes it "wow-like" is incorrect. Mario brothers for NES. Each level had an enrage timer too. Yet no one complains about that.

Enrage timers are there for gear checks. If you don't have the right gear, you won't be able to make it past. Combine that with low drop rates and soon it turns into a grind just to finish the game. Gear checks is very WoW-esque.

B) WoW isn't point to click. So You cannot compare the games in that aspect. Especially since Warcraft is an MMO and D3 isn't. This is a major difference between the 2.

It doesn't matter if WoW is point and click or not. The game difficulty and balance were all WoW inspired, that is MMO inspired, not action RPG inspired.

C) The boss mechanics? All bosses in every game have "Mechanics" Did you ever play Metroid games? They had mechanics that you dodged/took advantage of and killed. Even back to Mario Brothers. Bowser shot fire and jumped. Your job was to dodge the fire and run under him to destroy the bridge. (Again fire is bad, even the NES days showed us this) All bosses have mechanics. This is an aspect of all PvE games.

Specifically the WoW inspired boss mechanics. You could tell that they borrowed alot from the WoW bosses. Diablo 2 did not have boss mechanics where you needed to read up a strategy guide just to get past the boss. I thought the point was to avoid reading strategy guides?

D) (A warlock in Tier 5 soloed a 25-man Raid boss in Serpentshrine caverns).

I'm speaking of Heroic Slave Pens not using a bug.

E) Just because your friend struggled doesn't mean the players that understand and rise up to the difficulty of this game had issues. I never did. Just like your "rpg" analogy. I farmed Act 1 inferno until I had the gear/stats to move onto act 2. Farmed Act 2 until I was ready for 3. Farmed Act 3 (and a nerf was added here) until I could finish Act 4. Same as leveling pokemon to rise to the next challenge. Or puishing your characters on final fantasy to be strong enough to kill some boss or an area where there are tough random encounters. Again Inferno ment to be much more difficult than Hell. and just like any rpg game, the best stuff drops closer to the end of the game near the ahrdest difficulty.

You're talking about an MMO-like timeline right there. I think my problem is that Diablo 3 was balanced by people who made a very successful MMO. It feels like an MMO, which is why I dont like it. You enjoy it because it seems like you have a long history of playing MMOs.

 

[darkxshade]

stuck at work

wish I was home to take advantage of the RMAH... they say gold is tanking... I'd like to scoop some up at firesale prices of .5/m or lower if it gets to that.

If it's one thing I learned from Bliz announcements is that the population tend to over-react much like the stock market. Everytime they mentioned legendaries, brimstone prices sky rocketed and falls back down. I'm pretty confident in a week or 2, prices for gold will stabilize at $1/m or more.

 

[SS Trooper]

I took a 2 week break from this game awaiting the new patch. I was scared to find another legendary before they were buffed. (lol) The paragon system is a great idea. Along with the changes to difficulty and more friendly group play I am pysched to jump back into this.

Biggest problem I had was that my Barb was "done", but now he is far from it. SMASHY SMASH SMASH

 

[Aikouka]

B) WoW isn't point to click. So You cannot compare the games in that aspect. Especially since Warcraft is an MMO and D3 isn't. This is a major difference between the 2.

WoW actually does have a click-to-move mode.

 

[diesbudt]

Enrage timers are there for gear checks. If you don't have the right gear, you won't be able to make it past. Combine that with low drop rates and soon it turns into a grind just to finish the game. Gear checks is very WoW-esque.



It doesn't matter if WoW is point and click or not. The game difficulty and balance were all WoW inspired, that is MMO inspired, not action RPG inspired.



Specifically the WoW inspired boss mechanics. You could tell that they borrowed alot from the WoW bosses. Diablo 2 did not have boss mechanics where you needed to read up a strategy guide just to get past the boss. I thought the point was to avoid reading strategy guides?


I'm speaking of Heroic Slave Pens not using a bug.




You're talking about an MMO-like timeline right there. I think my problem is that Diablo 3 was balanced by people who made a very successful MMO. It feels like an MMO, which is why I dont like it. You enjoy it because it seems like you have a long history of playing MMOs.

Enrage timers are not specifically gear checks. They are stat checks. There have been RPGs I played that had enrage timers that were level based checks and not gear. As much as gear checks. This isn't MMO/WoW specific either. I am talking basic RPGs. Gear is just the only other way to enhance a character once they max out on xp/level, Many RPGS (even non MMOs) have getting gear a way to get stronger after maxing out on level.

Maybe this feels like an MMO to you because you havn't played that many difficult RPGs, that also have these designs in game.

Game difficulty was D2 inspired. Specifically from the game creators mouth. Inferno was the next level of difficulty since many D2 players wanted something harder than Hell mode. Game balance is the same for any online RPG. Especially one that will soon have PvP added. (which will be similar to WoW)

Yes D2 had boss mechanics. Most people cheated/got help/outleveled the need to bother with them (a failed way to create a game, and glad they did away with this style). Play normal Baal around level 30, and let me know how "easy" that is. Yes 1 boss had a very similar WoW feel. But that was more because it resembled a very popular/well known boss from WoW. [Ragnaros - Beiel] I bet I can find bosses from other games that resemble the other bosses in D3 (Having unique bosses in this age of gaming is becoming rare).

See thats the issue. you FEEL like it is an MMO, because you havent been exposed to many other RPGs or a lot of the MMOs that match the styles you are arguing for. I do enjoy MMOs. For the social and challenge aspect. If I enjoy D3, and it isnt a big social game (not an MMO / 4player limit per game) what does that leave with? Challenge. That is why I liked D3, it was hard.

 

[silverpig]

Game is good so far. Nice to have 6 search categories for each item in the AH.

Rares are dropping more often. I am at paragon level 1 now.

 

[Hacp]

Enrage timers are not specifically gear checks. They are stat checks. There have been RPGs I played that had enrage timers that were level based checks and not gear. As much as gear checks. This isn't MMO/WoW specific either. I am talking basic RPGs. Gear is just the only other way to enhance a character once they max out on xp/level, Many RPGS (even non MMOs) have getting gear a way to get stronger after maxing out on level.

It is a gear check essentially in D3, as you can't outlevel the content.

Maybe this feels like an MMO to you because you havn't played that many difficult RPGs, that also have these designs in game.

Hmm I agree with that. I've played one game where it took the average gamer months to beat the hardest level content. That game was world of warcrraft. For some reason, every other RPG I played had me beating the game pretty quickly. I wonder why.

Game difficulty was D2 inspired. Specifically from the game creators mouth. Inferno was the next level of difficulty since many D2 players wanted something harder than Hell mode. Game balance is the same for any online RPG. Especially one that will soon have PvP added. (which will be similar to WoW)

I agree that a more difficult mode is what alot of people wanted. What I don't think they wanted was for gear to stagnate, and for it to take 10 minutes to kill your average elite pack.

Yes D2 had boss mechanics. Most people cheated/got help/outleveled the need to bother with them (a failed way to create a game, and glad they did away with this style). Play normal Baal around level 30, and let me know how "easy" that is. Yes 1 boss had a very similar WoW feel. But that was more because it resembled a very popular/well known boss from WoW. [Ragnaros - Beiel] I bet I can find bosses from other games that resemble the other bosses in D3 (Having unique bosses in this age of gaming is becoming rare).

I never had to worry about Diablo 2 or Diablo boss mechanics or look up guides because they interacted the same way as regular mobs. Avoid stuff, kite, and win. If you messed up, drink a few pots and keep attacking. Then collect tons of cool loot.

See thats the issue. you FEEL like it is an MMO, because you havent been exposed to many other RPGs or a lot of the MMOs that match the styles you are arguing for. I do enjoy MMOs. For the social and challenge aspect. If I enjoy D3, and it isnt a big social game (not an MMO / 4player limit per game) what does that leave with? Challenge. That is why I liked D3, it was hard.

I feel like it is an MMO because the difficulty and game design is mmo inspired. I don't think there are many RPGs out there, that aren't MMOs, where it takes 3 months for a semi-hardcore gamer to finish the content.

 

[DAGTA]

Seems like rares are dropping a bit more often, but that's only after one hour of play. I found an upgrade for one of my rings. 1/2 way to paragon level 1. Monsters seem easier, including champion packs. Repair costs are cheaper. Gems and Tomes of Secret are a different shade of blue text now.

I did find Resplendent chests in places I had not before the patch.

Auction House, I am not able to compare items to my equipped items, but the extra search filters are nice to have.

 

[Fallengod]

They finally added the ability to cancel auctions....3 months later...

 

[diesbudt]

Hmm I agree with that. I've played one game where it took the average gamer months to beat the hardest level content. That game was world of warcrraft. For some reason, every other RPG I played had me beating the game pretty quickly. I wonder why.

I never had to worry about Diablo 2 or Diablo boss mechanics or look up guides because they interacted the same way as regular mobs. Avoid stuff, kite, and win. If you messed up, drink a few pots and keep attacking. Then collect tons of cool loot.


I feel like it is an MMO because the difficulty and game design is mmo inspired. I don't think there are many RPGs out there, that aren't MMOs, where it takes 3 months for a semi-hardcore gamer to finish the content.

It took me 125 D3 hours to finish the game (all difficulties) It took 3 months because I only played an hour here and there, and played with friends backtracking. Still only 125 hours.

Took me 150 hours to beat FF10, and that was because I farmed for each item and such.

Also, each elite pack took me no more than 2-3 minutes. Taking any longer and your doing it wrong or not ready for the area.

And 3 months is a subjective amount of time. If I tried I could max level, and get through all current raiding content in 2-3 weeks time. It all depends how much time you actually put into those 3 months. (And for the record I consider myself a casual gamer as of late 2011)

And the developers did say, the inferno was an "extra" mode. a challenge for those wishing to play it. You an beat D3 in 2-3 hours. You dont have to do the grind to beat inferno, that is an option. Much like Card game on FF8, or Blitzball on FF10. If you were to submerse into it, it would and many hours into the game time. But is not needed or a requirement to beat the game.

Also an MMO you never actually "beat" the game.

 

[silverpig]

Just got this drop in act 2:

Andariel's visage
Ilvl 62 helm
242 dex
42 int
46 poison res
IAS 8%
Regen 162 life per sec
Crit chance 4.5 %
25% more fire dmg taken
36% chance to cast a poison nova when you are hit