Official Swiftboat Thread

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Believe what you wish. It's not my fault you choose to stay blind.

CkG

If I'm blind, then you're blind and standing on the street corner with a monkey and an organ grinder. BTW, I can do these alllll day long.
:laugh:

:roll: Yeah, third grade was fun...

Anyway - try actually reading things and then try to comprehend them. In this situation, I'm not sure how you or anyone else can't see the double standard being employed by kerry.

What double standard?

Criticizing Kerry for trying to be fiscally responsible while still wanting to protect our soldiers? Perhaps Bush should look in moonbeam's mirror and ask himself why he was going to VETO that very same bill if it wasn't provided for solely with grants (deficit and taxpayers be damned.)

And, Kerry didn't vote FOR sending them into battle. That was Bush's decision, pure and simple. Bush's ill-formed decision that flew completely in the face of the text of the authorization given by the Senate.


Here...try some reading, yourself:

Larry Thurlow, one of the lying Swiftboat Veterans:
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/york/york200407301059.asp

Thurlow says that Kerry's version of the events of March 13, 1969, is simply wrong. "His story is a total fabrication," Thurlow says. One of the Swift Boats did hit a mine that day, Thurlow says, but much of the rest of Kerry's story is inaccurate. "This thing about being under intense enemy fire is a falsehood...There was no fire off either bank [of the river]. This thing about getting Jim out of the river under a hail of bullets with these serious injuries is totally fabricated."

The lie exposed:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html

Larry Thurlow received a bronze star for a fire fight he now says did not occur!



AND

George Elliott lying:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5694561/

HURLEY: This is from George Elliott, one of John Kerry?s commanders in Vietnam. This is the recommendation for the award of the Bronze Star. And he talks about a little bit in this.

Then he says: ?Shortly after starting their exit from this river, a mine detonated under one of the boats, PCF-3, lifting it two feet above the water and wounded everyone on board. Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated, close aboard PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassmann into the water and wounding Lieutenant J.G. Kerry in the right arm.? It goes on that PCF-4 provided cover fire, that they received sniper fire from the riverbanks. ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry, from his exposed position on the bow of the boat, managed to pull Lieutenant Rassmann aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm.

?Meanwhile, PCF-94 gunners provided accurate suppressing fire.? It concludes by saying: ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry proved himself to be calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire.? That is signed by George Elliott, one of these same guys now who is saying, oh, but I remember it differently and I want to change my mind.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry "has not been honest about what happened in Viet Nam." In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not been "forthright" in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being "honest" or "forthright" was this: "For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back.

In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a "terrible mistake" to sign that statement:

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4998.shtml

Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam."

O?Neill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an ?exclusive? interview after they learned O?Neill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March.

Elliott Praises Kerry in 1969 Report

Elliott had a much different opinion of Kerry at the time than in the ad. In a fitness report on Kerry, dated Dec. 18, 1969, he stated that "in a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed...LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

Elliott also said he voted for Gore. I find that very hard to believe considering he's donated to the GOP. Elliott is a pathological liar. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


AND

Hibbard has not revealed that he was Kerry's CO for only two weeks and never wrote a performance review for Kerry.


AND

Hoffman has been called a Kurtz-like psychopath.

Capt. Roy Hoffmann: "I told them you not only have authority," Hoffmann now says, "I damned well expect action. If there were men there and they didn?t kill them or capture them, you?d hear from me."

Also, Hoffman is a liar:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4998.shtml

?They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry,? Brinkley says. ?Hoffman, in particular lacks credibility.?

On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote ?Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally.?

On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats."

AND

Merrie Spaeth is the Communications Director for the Swiftboat Veterans group and is a staunch GOP supporter.


AND

Their website is funded by a Missouri Republican with close ties to John Ashcroft.


AND

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/4/132751.shtml

?It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.) Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.?

But it is with regard to the latter sentence of the charge that O?Neill and others get vague.

When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry?s military records, there was no answer forthcoming.

AND

Who is Steve Gardner?
Swift Boat Vet "eyewitness" was not present for events leading to Kerry's medals or Purple Hearts
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408240001

Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred...

...in at least two interviews, Gardner has falsely claimed that he was present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of awards...

...In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, "[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn't aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went." Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry's rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then "turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal." But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. When Scarborough attempted to revisit the "March 13, 1969 incident," Gardner said, "I'm not going to deal with that. Because I wasn't there."...

...On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him but I -- in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations."

And John O'Neill in his lie:

Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_critic_swift_boats_1&printer=1

 

[DoubleL]

And they could tell all that from a few naval records? Gee, how could the people on the boat with Kerry have missed that? I guess they must not have read those records, huh.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To answer your question 1EZduzit, Yes they could tell all that from a few naval records, Also you had 4 other boats that didn't see what Kerry's boat did and they stayed , You had Kerry say I don't know who put me in for that medal and 3rd purple heart, Later the records showed it was Kerry that put his men in for medals and him self to, To try and say they were fire coming from both sides of the banks and they missed every shot, Trained soldiers couldn't hit 5 boats that you could hit with a rock, Oh wait they were just shooting at Kerry and everyone on the other boats knew that so they, But wait the others said they were no one shooting at them and no boat got hit by anything other that a mine, I know if it had happen like Kerry said no one would know about it cause the way the boats were banked they would all be dead, You can beat that dead horse all you want but it isn't going to run, I can't say they would all be dead, No one can say that but I was there and most would be dead I can tell you that

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..

he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)

meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).
Attacking GWB's military service

gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.

You are so twisted it isn't even funny. It's OK for the swifties to run ad's based on lies and no one in the Bush camp will do anything about it. Is Kerry supposed to just sit and take it? Would that be fair?

Was it free speech when that man got fired from his job for expressing his feelings at a Bush rally?

Was it free speech when the CEO of Enron told all his employees how good there stock was while at the same time he was selling his?

You think it's free speech even when it causes people real harm, but someone heckles Bush and loses his job, but he doesn't have the right to do that? He embarrased a client. Big Deal, get over it and MoveOn.

You will sit there and seriously argue that big business doesn't want to own their employees, both on the clock and off by denying them of their free speech and now you critize Kerry and liberals about free speech? LOL What a hypocrite!! How do you sleep at night?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
And they could tell all that from a few naval records? Gee, how could the people on the boat with Kerry have missed that? I guess they must not have read those records, huh.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To answer your question 1EZduzit, Yes they could tell all that from a few naval records, Also you had 4 other boats that didn't see what Kerry's boat did and they stayed , You had Kerry say I don't know who put me in for that medal and 3rd purple heart, Later the records showed it was Kerry that put his men in for medals and him self to, To try and say they were fire coming from both sides of the banks and they missed every shot, Trained soldiers couldn't hit 5 boats that you could hit with a rock, Oh wait they were just shooting at Kerry and everyone on the other boats knew that so they, But wait the others said they were no one shooting at them and no boat got him by anything other that a mine, I know if it had happen like Kerry said no one would know about it cause the way the boats were banked they would all be dead, You can beat that dead horse all you want but it isn't going to run

We've already been all through all that and it's been shown to be a bunch of lies. Try checking more sources for news. Go beat your own dead horse for a while and quit wasting bandwidth.

 

[Riprorin]

Kerry AWOL from Naval Reserves

We at www.crushkerry.com have remained relatively mum on the issue of Vietnam and John Kerry?s service record when compared to other anti-Kerry websites. Indeed, heretofore, we?ve been content to aver merely that while Kerry fought with bravery in Vietnam he acted in shame upon returning home. But we had no idea the depth of the problem before the junior Senator from Massachusetts.

John Kerry signed an agreement as part of his naval officer commission to serve at least 3 years on active duty and the remainder of his obligated 6 year service in the Ready Reserves. Ready Reserves are those who must attend drills.

It bears repeating: Kerry obligated himself to at least 3 years active duty, and the remainder of his 6 year obligation in the Ready (not Standby) Reserves.

He further agreed that while in the Ready Reserves (from discharge to 1972) he would perform no less than 48 drills per year and up to 17 active duty days per year, or alternatively, 30 active duty days per year.

None of Kerry?s released records shows any evidence of his performing these Ready Reserve obligated days in 1970 through 1972, after which he was transferred to the Inactive Reserves. The only Performance of Duty form released covers 1966. There should be one for every year.

Nor is there any excusal from drilling status in his records, or alternatively, pay and attendance records indicating that he performed any drills in 1970-72 as required of a Ready Reservist.

It was George Bush's alleged non-performance of his obligated reserve duty that caused all the furor last February, yet Kerry apparently cannot show his performance of his obligated Reserve duty.

The Kerry campaign has said that his separation from active duty put him in the inactive, non-drilling Naval Reserve so he could run for Congress. This is NOT true, as follows:

Kerry?s transfer from the Ready Reserves to the Standby (Inactive) reserves did not occur until March 1972, NOT upon his release from Active Duty to run for Congress (1969/70).

Furthermore, Kerry?s official transfer from the Ready Reserves to the Standby (Inactive) Reserves was not formalized until July 1972.

Contrary to what Kerry's campaign flacks say, the wording on his Release from Active Duty (to run for Congress) does NOT put him in the Inactive Reserves - it puts him in Inactive Duty status, which includes Ready Reserves with attendant drill obligation. BIG difference - though the confusion is understandable.

According to our source, the legal specifics that counter Kerry?s word trickery pits a Title 10 duty (Active Duty) Green Card vs. Title 32 duty (Inactive Duty) Red Card. Did Kerry have a Green Card or a Red Card?

We are beginning to see a pattern of obfuscation and deceit by the Kerry campaign. Are they intentionally using the tortured language of the military bureaucracy as a cover up?

Had Kerry been placed in the Inactive Reserves in 1970 upon his release from Active Duty, as Kerry's people suggest, there would not have been the 1972 Transfer to the Standby Reserves form we show above - he would have already been there.

Also, if the timing of these records is correct, as a drilling Ready Reserve naval officer, in 1970-72 he was somewhat restricted by military regulations in what comments he could make in public regarding statements on the military leadership and the National Command Authority. Yet this is the period of his most public protests and anti-war demonstrations.

In fact, his hairdo alone in the 1970-72 period would not meet Navy standards, and he would be sent home from drill if he had ever attended one.

 

[umbrella39]

Must resist... temptation strong... type message, put a lot of swear words in it... preview... should I post.... nooooo.... delete....

Phew that was close. I need Antabuse and Trexan to get me through the first few weeks. Attend 3 meetings a day. Get a sponsor.

 

[DoubleL]

We've already been all through all that and it's been shown to be a bunch of lies. Try checking more sources for news. Go beat your own dead horse for a while and quit wasting bandwidth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Humm 1EZduzit you mean NBC would lie and make up two fake naval records and show them on TV, 1EZduzit you know who is lying here just like he did when he came back from nam, You know what I said makes to muh since, LOL now I am wasting bandwidth, It's not who's Right that counts, it's who's Left
It is sad to say but that says it all for so many people

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Must resist... temptation strong... type message, put a lot of swear words in it... preview... should I post.... nooooo.... delete....

Phew that was close. I need Antabuse and Trexan to get me through the first few weeks. Attend 3 meetings a day. Get a sponsor.

"Sweet bourbon . . . brownest of the brown liquors . . . What's that? You want me to drink you? But I'm in the middle of a trial!" - Simpsons shyster attorney Lionel Hutts, just before calling his AA sponsor, David Crosby

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DoubleL

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit<br>
We've already been all through all that and it's been shown to be a bunch of lies. Try checking more sources for news. Go beat your own dead horse for a while and quit wasting bandwidth.

Humm 1EZduzit you mean NBC would lie and make up two fake naval records and show them on TV, 1EZduzit you know who is lying here just like he did when he came back from nam, You know what I said makes to muh since, LOL now I am wasting bandwidth, It's not who's Right that counts, it's who's Left
It is sad to say but that says it all for so many people

WTF are you talking about?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
I was watching the 6:30 news last night and they had a few naval records, It could not have happen the way Kerry said and Kerry could have not been wounded, Kerry said they were taking fire from both sides of the bank, All 5 boats had to turn to the sides of the banks to get around a fishing net so it would be very easy to hit the boats but not one boat had any holes other than one that had 3 AK-47 hole from a day or two before that, It also said LT. Kerry had a sore arm not a open wound, Lets bring all the records out and clear this thing up for good

What does that prove? Were htey aiming at the boat or the people or the person in the water? I've seen an interview where people on Kerry's boat confirmed he was wounded and was bleeding>

I have better theings to do then argue with someone who is either an out and out liar or very misinformed by listening to only one source of news and not checking it out for yourself.. I have better things to do then look up all these links to prove it to you when, if you really wanted to know the truth you would read all the posts and posted links yourself.

If you want to convince somebody of something, then post your links. I've already been to almost all of them, if not all of them. I was supporting Kerry and if he was a lying coward, I wanted to know. I followed the threads about it, checked out the links for myself, read all the interviews, and weighed the evidence. Clearly Kerry isn't the one lying. It's easy to say, "it was on the news". I've said that before, but i don't expect people to take one news report as fact. They screw up, many times don't have their facts straight or the even have the whole story.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..

he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)

meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).
Attacking GWB's military service

gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.

Bush was too chicken-sh!t to come out of the house. It really is a shame that the president of the United States can get his ass kicked by a guy with no legs.

 

[Riprorin]

What do John Kerry and Jane Fonda have in common?

Both are being honored in the Hanoi War Museum, in a special section dedicated to foreign activists who helped defeat the U.S. military in Vietnam. Kerry has a place of honor, along with Jane Fonda, as American traitors who helped the Communists win by undermining the war effort at home with disinformation and leftist propaganda.

I can't wait to see this in an ad.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Kerry is so two faced it's ridiculous..

he sends Max Cleland (who inspite of missing three limbs, never earned one purple heart) to Bush's ranch in Texas to give him a letter asking him to condemn the Swifties for Truth (trying to "create" a news event)

meanwhile, he's at a rally where his supports are attacking Bush for his service in the Air National Guard. Gee, i thoughht Kerry was against this stuff (i guess only when it's about him, eh?).
Attacking GWB's military service

gotta love those liberals, free speech for them, none for anyone else.

Bush was too chicken-sh!t to come out of the house. It really is a shame that the president of the United States can get his ass kicked by a guy with no legs.

I saw that on the news tonight.

Bush sent out a "representative" to receive the letter.

What a Bush-league move! :|

 

[conjur]

Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&amp;cid=694&amp;u=/ap/20040825/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_critic_swift_boats_1&amp;printer=1

 

[arsbanned]

Big surprise, the lies are unraveling.

 

[rextilleon]

What it really boils down to is who do you trust-----The guys on the boat or the right wing vets who have an axe to grind because Kerry had the audacity to tell the truth about Vietnam---In a court room it would be the eye witnesses---In Bush's America its whomever can callously accuse the loudest.

 

[Riprorin]

If Kerry lied about being in Cambodia at Christmas, what else do you think he lied about?

 

[arsbanned]

More proof the lies campaign perpetrated by Bush and Co. is unraveling:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/

The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry?s description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it ?an enemy initiated firefight? that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry?s.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
More proof the lies campaign perpetrated by Bush and Co. is unraveling:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/

The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry?s description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it ?an enemy initiated firefight? that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry?s.

The hits (to the sbv's credibility) just keep on coming!


And they're doing most of it to themselves (as evidenced by the proof of O'Neill lying that Kerry was never in Cambodia.)


I like the poll, too.


If the presidential election were held this week, who would you vote for? * 266301 responses


George W. Bush
41%

John Kerry
57%

Ralph Nader
2%

 

[Ogi]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
If Kerry lied about being in Cambodia at Christmas, what else do you think he lied about?

if bush lied about WMDs what else do you think he lied about
if bush lies about his negative ads towards kerry what else do you think he has lied about

the list goes on

and it's starting to look like kerry DIDN'T lie about cambodia!

so basically rip, hate to say this, but you don't have sh!t on kerry, everything you are trying to throw at him has been debunked.

Ogi

 

[villager]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
If Kerry lied about being in Cambodia at Christmas, what else do you think he lied about?

Weapons of Mass Destruction?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: villager

Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Don't feed the troll.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Anyone who hasn't heard it may want to check out James Webb's commentary on the SBVT, available here. It is the link "All Things Considered Audio," at the top of the page.

A brief bio:

James Webb served as Secretary of the Navy and Assistant Secretary of Defense under Ronald Reagan.

"Webb was secretary of the Navy from 1987 to 1988, when he resigned over a naval reduction of forces. Before that, he was assistant secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs for three years, and counsel to the House Committee on Veterans Affairs from 1977 to 1981."

"Webb, who served with the 5th Marine Regiment in Vietnam and received the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts, has written six best-selling novels, including 'Fields of Fire', considered by many to be the classic novel of the Vietnam War. His original story, 'Rules of Engagement', was made into a movie starring Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson." [1]

In case you don't want to listen to it, here is a transcript of his piece, from Webb's webpage:

The Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth have a point in their attack on John Kerry's Vietnam service, for by basing his campaign on his wartime credentials, he invited their response. The "Swifties" are giving John Kerry a version of what the military calls a "peer evaluation" - a hard, cool look at a fellow officer that calls him to task for being self-serving. But their conduct invites its own questions, not the least of which is one of relevance.

Should a shaky decoration for gallantry disqualify one for the Presidency? Ask Lyndon Johnson, who as a Congressman convinced Douglas MacArthur to award him a Silver Star for riding as a passenger on an aircraft fired on by the Japanese.

Do erratic tactics reveal an inability to govern under pressure? Ask Jack Kennedy, whose World War II exploits as the skipper of PT-109 began when his boat sank after colliding with a Japanese warship.

Is a highborn aristocrat condemnable when he goes to go to war to fuel his political aspirations? Tell that to Teddy Roosevelt, who recklessly risked the lives of his Rough Riders at San Juan Hill, and incessantly lobbied on his own behalf to receive the Medal of Honor once he returned.

The greater worry is that their attack on Kerry's service may harm the very people the Swifties wish to protect, for their allegations have the potential to negate the service of everyone who was on the boats. If the young John Kerry were so able to manipulate the Navy's system that he unfairly collected five decorations, the system itself has no credibility, and all awards become meaningless. Indeed, one of the Swifties has had to deny the content of his own Bronze Star citation indicating that he was under enemy fire at the same time as was Kerry, in order to further their contention that Kerry's citation was false. This confusing conduct threatens to harm the public's view of those who fought in Vietnam as much as anything that John Kerry did when he came home and turned against the war.

By contrast, Kerry's leadership of Vietnam Veterans Against the War is not only fair game; it speaks to legitimate issues of loyalty, and his actions at that time are the true core of this dispute. For most veterans it was not that Kerry was against the war, but that he used his military credentials to denigrate the service of a whole generation of veterans. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War was a very small, highly radical organization. Their stories of atrocious conduct, repeated in lurid detail by Kerry before the Congress, represented not the typical experience of the American soldier, but its ugly extreme. That the articulate, urbane Kerry would validate such allegations helped to make life hell for many Vietnam veterans, for a very long time.

But against this backdrop we are measuring a sitting President who avoided service in Vietnam altogether, using family strings to gain a spot in the National Guard at a time when the Guard was an undeniable safe haven from war. And if there are a group of former Swifties available to cross every "t" and dot every "i" of John Kerry's Vietnam service, there will be no debates about whether George W. Bush deserved a Silver Star, or earned his Purple Hearts.

The Swifties have made their point, and after thirty years of bitterness John Kerry has earned the karma that they brought him. But most veterans, like most other Americans, are ready to digest this piece of information and move on.

 

[villager]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: arsbanned
More proof the lies campaign perpetrated by Bush and Co. is unraveling:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/

The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry?s description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it ?an enemy initiated firefight? that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry?s.

The hits (to the sbv's credibility) just keep on coming!


And they're doing most of it to themselves (as evidenced by the proof of O'Neill lying that Kerry was never in Cambodia.)


I like the poll, too.


If the presidential election were held this week, who would you vote for? * 266301 responses


George W. Bush
41%

John Kerry
57%

Ralph Nader
2%

I have not seen that poll but this is the recent economist
poll

Kerry 48% to Bush 43%
Bush approval at 39%!

 

[arsbanned]

In case you don't want to listen to it, here is a transcript of his piece, from Webb's webpage:

Interesting read. I can understand the bitterness toward Kerry for his testimony after the war. It invalidated what they were doing and exposed the ugly underbelly of the war. It was an immoral war however and most of what he said was accurate.
The smear campaign is backfiring on the Republicans though because most Americans have finally moved on and don't appreciate this garbage being dredged up for political purposes.