Official Swiftboat Thread

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Originally posted by: wiin
1EZduzit said.
The whole thing disgusts me personally, and reminds me why I never liked politics. I get the sense these SBVT guys are simply Bush supporters who are still upset with Kerry because he spoke out when returning from the war

Kerry lied in his testimony. that's what the Veterans want corrected. Last year, they wrote to Kerry to correct this but instead Kerry use this as the centerpiece of his campaign. Now that he is publicly being challenged, he is crying wolf. He admitted to some of the lies already. Instead of responding to the accusations, kerry is using his war machines to destroy and discredit the veterans. He said that he will defend America
but according to the veterans, he ran when things got tough. And to divert the public's attention to his lies, he accused the Bush campaign of running the SW veterans. Two from the Bush campain resigned as a result of this accusation.

Democrats demand probe of Bush-Vets connection. I hope this goes through. Then the GOP will have an excuse to go after Kerry's campaign and we'll see the hypocrisy of the Kerry campaign. Robert Bauer, national counsel to Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign, also works for the Bush-hating, pro-Kerry 527 group that calls itself America Coming Together. The media, an ally of Kerry, of course ignored this and that of Zach Exley, Jim Jordan and Joe Sandler (to mention just a few).

The thing about kerry's side is that people planning to vote for him vote for him because they hate President Bush, not because they support kerry. And that, in my opinion, is just sad.


Please Point out the Lies in this .......... I wont hold my breath.




Legislative Proposals Relating to the War in Southeast Asia Thursday, April 22, 1971 United States Senate, Committee on Foreign Relations, Washington, D.C.


"Winter soldier Investigation
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, no reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out. "
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Came across this (formatting got all f-ed up)

Veteran's Baseball: Kerry v. Bush

Kerry Bush

Volunteered to Serve Yes Yes
(Bush 1, Kerry 1 -end of 1st inning)

Volunteered to Serve in Nam Yes No
(Kerry 2, Bush 1 - end of the 2nd inning)
(Kerry team coach questions game. States Bush team didn't deserve to even be on the field.)

Volunteered to Serve in Front Lines Yes No
(Kerry 3, Bush 1 - end of the 3rd inning)

Posted all service records on Net Yes No
(Kerry 4, Bush 1 - end of the 4th inning)
(Dugouts calm)


Silver Star 1 0
(Kerry 5, Bush 1 - end of the 5th inning)
(Note: Bush coach protests run. Loud yelling can be heard by some Bush fans in the stands.)

Bronze Star 1 0
(Kerry 6, Bush 1 - end of the 6th inning)
(Stands quiet)

Purple Heart 3 0
(Kerry 9, Bush 1 -end of the 7th inning)
(Note: Bush coach yells at umpire over the three runs, protesting the awarding of the runs. Entire Bush team led by Swift Boat Veterans run onto the field to aid in protest. Unable to get the off field protestors back off the field, the umpire declares to both sides that they will have to continue play with the additional players on the field. Kerry protests but decides to continue since he is considerably up. Seventh inning stretch has fans limbering up in the stands with their own bats.)

Records question attendance No Yes
(Kerry 10, Bush 1 - end of the 8th inning)
(Kerry team renews it's protest of Bush team even being allowed on the field. However, umpire orders Kerry back to dugout since Kerry's team has not met the 10 run slaughter rule yet.)

Left Service Commitment Early Yes Yes
(Kerry 11, Bush 2 - end of the ninth and game.)
(Note: Kerry declared the winner. Game breaks out into brawl in the stands that then moves to the street.)

After game:
1. Guts to protest war (which in the end it has come out that Johnson and Nixon were trying to figure out how to get us out not win it) - Priceless
(Bush team again led by Swift Boaters protest)

2. Humility to admit that some of what he said during that time was over the edge, thus admitting a mistake and learning from it. - Priceless
(Kerry team can no longer be heard any more as Bush team as taken over the loud speakers at Fox News and refuses to let the Kerry team be heard.)

In an effort to bring calm to the situation, President Bush declares martial law and sticks his tough out at Senator Kerry as he yells - "Gotcha" [Sorry for this last, but it fit in the story too well.]
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
smashp said:

Please Point out the Lies in this .......... I wont hold my breath.


Here you go:

After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination). One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's account in the latest National Review.)
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Originally posted by: wiin
smashp said:

Please Point out the Lies in this .......... I wont hold my breath.


Here you go:

After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination). One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's account in the latest National Review.)

A Blog Linking to the The Weekly Standard HA Ha HA

Care to post any "Evidence" of these lies form a non-political Source dated around the time of the investigation or maybe just Before Kerry annouced he was running for President.



from the article.....

"The young politician was able to have his cake and eat it, too, becoming the establishment, patriotic face of a radical, anti-patriotic movement. Quite a trick, really."

More you hate america BS
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
CAD,

As I recall your the guy I had an argument with about income taxes and you resented people who wanted to increase your taxes based on just their arbitrtary feelings because it wasn't right? Now you post a letter about people who want to run campaign ad's that are at best misguided, based on nothing but their feelings?

That seems to me to be a bit of a double standard, doesn't it? I guess it depends on whose feelings are involved.

Campaigns are based on persuading people's "feelings". You know...Who YOU the voter "feel" is the best leader. Taxes aren't that way - they are for collecting revenue.
Nice try though...

CkG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Bush asks McCain to help block 527s
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/26/campaigns.527s/index.html
LAS CRUCES, New Mexico (CNN) -- President Bush wants to work with Sen. John McCain to take legal action against "shadowy" outside groups that have been spending millions of dollars on ads criticizing the president and Democratic rival Sen. John Kerry, the White House said Thursday.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush called the GOP senator from Arizona on Thursday morning and said that, if legal action does not work, he wants to pursue legislative action against the groups.

McClellan said McCain told Bush that he thought it was a good idea that the two men work together.

AND

McCain: Stand Down On Vietnam
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/26/politics/main638716.shtml
(CBS/AP) Sen. John McCain has called on both political parties to declare a cease-fire in the increasingly bitter partisan quarrel over John Kerry's Vietnam war record.

"I'm sick and tired of re-fighting the Vietnam War. And most importantly, I'm sick and tired of opening the wounds of the Vietnam War, which I've spent the last 30 years trying to heal," McCain told USA Today. "It's offensive to me, and it's angering to me that we're doing this. It's time to move on."

Separately, McCain told the New York Times that he intended to personally "express my displeasure" to President Bush about TV ads that question Kerry's valor in Vietnam.

The Arizona Republican told the newspaper he did not think Mr. Bush had gone far enough in condemning the ads, which have been produced by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

The Vietnam War hero also said he wanted Kerry and the Democrats to stop using a clip of him in the 2000 presidential campaign in TV ads attacking the president.

The ad - and the Kerry campaign - assert that Mr. Bush is behind the Swift Boat group, a charge the White House denies.

It's reasons such as those that I like McCain. I just hate seeing him denigrate himself by stumping for Bush alongside him on the campaign trail. He knows Bush and he knows Rove...yet there he is on-stage with Bush. Sad.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Another vet breaks his silence and backs kerry's claim that they were shot at (note: He's not voting for kerry, so this is a very good source):

http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0826/local/stories/01local.htm

Swift boat memories
Eagle Point vet who was there backs Kerry?s assertion that bullets were flying the day he won two medals on a river in Vietnam

By PAUL FATTIG
Mail Tribune

Robert E. Lambert doesn?t plan to vote for John Kerry.

But the Eagle Point man challenges claims by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that there was no enemy fire aimed at the five swift boats, including the one commanded by Kerry, on March 13, 1969 on the Bay Hap River in the southern tip of what was then South Vietnam.

Lambert, now 64, was a crew member on swift boat PCF-51 that day. The boat was commanded by Navy Lt. Larry Thurlow, a now-retired officer who questions why Kerry was awarded a Bronze star for bravery and a third Purple Heart for the March 13 incident.

"He and another officer now say we weren?t under fire at that time," Lambert said Wednesday afternoon. "Well, I sure was under the impression we were."

Lambert?s Bronze Star medal citation for the incident praises his courage under fire in the aftermath of a mine explosion that rocked another swift boat on that day 35 years ago.

Advertisement
2 WEEKS FREE!
"Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire," he said.

Lambert contacted the Mail Tribune after reading a lengthy article from the Washington Post examining the controversy. That article, carried in the Tribune, indicated that Lambert was a witness to the event but declined to comment.

Although noting he was never contacted by the Post, Lambert stressed that he believes the swift boat controversy has no place in the presidential election.

"This is being blown out of proportion," he said. "It?s absolutely unnecessary and irrelevant, as far as I?m concerned. All of this is nothing but a distraction. It doesn?t have anything to do with what is going on today."

A registered independent, Lambert said the presidential debate ought to be on the future, not the past.

"They should be focused on our exit strategy from Iraq," he said.

Lambert does take issue with Kerry?s opposition to the Vietnam War once he returned to the states.

"That was absolutely reprehensible but, there again, I?m career military," said Lambert who retired from the Navy as a chief petty officer after 22 years of service.

Nor does he have much time for the debate over who wrote the medal citations. Thurlow says his citation for a Bronze Star, which states the boats were being fired upon, was based on an initial report written by Kerry.

Lambert doesn?t know who wrote the documents.

"They took what everybody said after they got in, piled it altogether and shipped it off and somebody wrote that, either at the division level, squadron level or commander of naval forces, Vietnam level," Lambert said. "They decided what kind of medal was going to be put on it.

"Mine was for pulling Lt. Thurlow out of the river while we were under fire," he said.

Lambert, whose stout arms sport tattoos he picked up in the Navy, was already an "old salt" by 1969. He had joined the Navy right after graduating in 1957 from high in Chino, Calif.

Altogether, he would serve three tours in Vietnam, including a year on a mine sweeper.

In 1969, he was on his second swift boat tour. Among his duties, he helped train the officers in charge of the swift boats. He did not train Kerry.

"When they brought a new crew into country, they broke the crew apart, put each man on a different boat," he said. "Even though I was only a petty officer first class, I trained the officer in charge. When we all decided the officer and crew was ready, we put them back together and gave them a boat."

Lambert has a photo album of swift boats, including several shots of Kerry?s PCF-94, although he doesn?t recall ever having met Kerry. One of his photographs of Kerry?s boat was taken on the morning of March 13, 1969, he added.

He flipped to a photograph of a bullet hole in the side of his swift boat ? PCF-51.

"That?s the bullet hole they keep talking about that they got the day before in the 51 boat ? that was my purple heart," he said, noting he was hit on the upper left arm.

"When those bullets hit that aluminum, it was like hitting glass," he added. "There was shrapnel everywhere."

His photographs include swift boats riddled from AK-47 rifle rounds and larger holes from rocket blasts.

Lambert said that while he disagrees with Thurlow over whether they were being fired at that day, he and the crew liked and respected him.

"He was an excellent officer," he said. "The man was absolutely professional all the way. I would have went anywhere with him, he was that good.

"But I can understand why Thurlow doesn?t like Kerry ? these people did a year in Vietnam, not four months," he said later.

The five swift boats were operating off U.S. Coast Guard cutters farther out in the bay on March 13. The swift boats had dropped off a load of Chinese mercenaries and American Special Forces. The mission of the ground forces was to push the enemy out of the jungle and onto the beach, where the swift boat crews were ready to pounce with their .50-caliber machine guns and other weapons.

According to Kerry?s Bronze Star citation, he was awarded the medal for rescuing Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off his swift boat. Rassmann, who lives in Florence, has repeatedly stated the boats were under fire.

"We were done with our OPs and on the way back out to sea," Lambert recalled. "We were exiting the river. Kerry?s boat went through, then the 43 boat."

Then PCF-3 hit a mine.

"The mine was right underneath it, just lifted it right out of the water," he said.

The six-member crew was stunned and shaken by the blast; the boat was running free.

"It was running wide open ? we were all running wide open, trying to get out of there," he said.

But while PCF-3 was running at full throttle, there was no one at the helm.

Thurlow pulled his boat up along the PCF-3 boat and told Lambert to take control of the PCF-51 boat, Lambert said.

"Everybody was shooting back," he said. "After my boat officer (Thurlow) jumped on the 3 boat, he was looking at people (the crew). His boat hit a sandbar and he was knocked overboard. So we went in and got him out."

Lambert, who reached down to help Thurlow aboard, was awarded the Bronze Star for his "courage under fire," according to his citation.

"We went right back to the 3 boat and he (Thurlow) went back on the boat," he said. "We got the 3 boat off the sandbar, got a boat tied to each side of it and down the river we went."

Reach reporter Paul Fattig at 776-4496 or e-mail him at pfattig@mailtribune.com
 

Farvacola

Senior member
Jul 14, 2004
753
0
0
I think it basically comes down to the fact that bush supporters really have very little to fire at Kerry, so they must try and invent something that discredits a man who has been very careful with his life. Just because Kerry had politcal aspirations most of his life doesnt mean he covered things up. Look at Bush. When he was in College, going to Yale, he was a frat boy and was in charge of ordering kegs for his fraternity. It was even discovered that he was behind a hazing game where all newbies were branded with hot irons. Of course, Kerry and his supporters are not nearly brazen or stupid enough to use this material, so they use the real issues. Bush on the other hand, is followed by people who have no idea where the line is, and the swift boat ads are a product of that. To be completely fair, the ads should stop. Kerry has every right to tout his military career, and unfortunately for Bush, he decided to wimp out of his, and he should pay the price. The Bush college story is from an issue of rolling stone interviewing Gary Trudeau, who was 2 years behind Bush.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
I am laughing like mad at how much the Democrats are riding Kerry's military service compared to Bush's none.

Why? Because eight years ago, the Democrats voted in a Vietnam draft-dodger over a decorated WWII hero. Who, by the way, was Bush's father of course. I guess eight years ago, not wanting to fight in Vietnam was "the right thing," and nowadays, you're a coward if you didn't go fight for your country.

Have any of you ever been in a war? Fought in a war? Fired a weapon? Been fired at? If so, would you not do your best to make sure your son didn't have to go through what you did?

I imagine Bush Sr. didn't want to see his son in Vietnam, much like Clinton didn't want to be in Vietnam.

Honestly, I think both Kerry and Bush are horrible nominations, regardless of what they were doing during the Vietnam war. There are so many negatives on both these guys, I have no idea why there is focus, FROM EITHER SIDE, on Vietnam.

Bush supporters have nothing to say about Kerry's service, because Bush had none.
Kerry supporters have nothing to say about Bush's lack of service, as Kerry's was at most, a minimum, and their previous President/God (Clinton) did practically the same thing as Bush in regards to Vietnam.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
A veteran for truth
http://www.telluridegateway.com/articles/2004/08/20/news/opinion/opinion01.txt
Dear Editor,

This letter is in response to the new attacks on John Kerry's war record by a group calling itself the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." As for most veterans of any war and as people who know me will testify, it is not easy for me to talk about my experiences in Vietnam. However, because of these new ads and, I understand, a new book recently published by an old Charles Colson "Enemies List" hit man, I feel compelled to speak out. Unfortunately, the veterans featured in these attacks are being used by extreme right wing Bush supporters to spread their lies and malign John Kerry.

I feel that most of these veterans who are joining this attack are against Kerry for what he did after he was home from the war than for what he did in the war. If they are against him for his stance against the Vietnam War, that certainly is their right, but to spread lies and malicious innuendos about his time on the rivers of Vietnam is not morally right and does a disservice not only to Kerry, but to all those who served and were wounded or died in that war. The people who are using these veterans for their own means obviously do not care about that. They did the same thing to Senator John McCain and Congressman Max Cleland in 2000 with no remorse or care for the consequences.

To me what is worse is that by their silence, the current administration has not, with any real meaning, disavowed itself or distanced itself in anyway from any of these scurrilous attacks, past or present. I feel that this truly shows the Bush administration for what they really are and ultimately, who is truly responsible for these attacks.

Since I happened to be along on one of the "excursions" where the boats that we were on were attacked and after which Lt. Kerry was cited for valor, I thought it appropriate to give my recollection of that event. This happened on March 13, 1969. I was assigned as Psychological Operation Officer for the Swift Boat group out of An Thoi, Vietnam, from January 1969 to October 1969. As such, I was on No. 43 boat, skippered by Don Droz who was later that year killed by enemy fire. We were second in line while exiting the river and going through the opening in a fish trap when a mine blew up under the No. 3 boat directly in front of us and we started taking small arms fire from the beach. Almost immediately, another mine went off somewhere behind us. All boats, except the one hit, immediately wheeled toward the beach that most of the fire came from (a tactic devised by Lt. Kerry, I later learned) and commenced showering the beaches with so much lead, that it could probably be now mined there. The noise was of course, deafening.

Three things that are forever pictured in my mind since that day over 30 years ago are: (1) The No. 3, 50-foot long, Swift boat getting huge, huge air; John Kerry thought it was about two feet. (He was farther away from it than I). I think it was at least four feet and probably closer to six feet; (2) All the boats turning left and letting loose at the same time like a deadly, choreographed dance and; (3) A few minutes later, John Kerry bending over his boat picking up one of the rangers that we were ferrying from out of the water. All the time we were taking small arms fire from the beach; although because of our fusillade into the jungle, I don't think it was very accurate, thank God. Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river.

The picture I have in my mind of Kerry bending over from his boat picking some hapless guy out of the river while all hell was breaking loose around us, is a picture based on fact and it cannot be disputed or changed. It's a piece of history drawn in my mind that cannot be redrawn. Sorry, "Swift Boats Veterans for the Truth"- that is the truth.

To say that John Kerry or any of us were on that river to intentionally collect Purple Hearts really does every soldier and sailor, past and present, a disservice. We were going up those rivers (with an ongoing casualty rate of 86 percent at the time) on the orders of the same people who approved of Kerry's medals and who are now joining in the attacks against Kerry. Unbelievable.

I would hope that the American public sees these evil extreme right wing attacks for what they really are and also pray that the veterans being used by these unpatriotic right wing extremist political operatives will divorce themselves immediately from them and speak to the real issues as to why they oppose John Kerry. I just don't understand how anyone can align themselves with those who intentionally and gleefully painted a decorated triple amputee (Max Cleland) from Vietnam as unpatriotic. I think that this is the most disastrous, un-American thing that can be done to our servicemen and women, especially now with another unending war going on. Your ends cannot possibly justify these means. Come on!

Jim Russell

Vietnam veteran,

USN (1966-71)
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Its too bad Kerry didn't have the trusty 8mm rolling in the background that might resolve all this hearsay. The 8mm would have clearly come in handy for good old trip with X and Y from the CIA for Christmas in Cambodia. To each his own. All of these vets have their own skewed version of the events that took place. Filtering the fact from the fiction thats the kicker.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Another vet breaks his silence and backs kerry's claim that they were shot at (note: He's not voting for kerry, so this is a very good source):

How many does this make now? :laugh:
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Gaard

Bush was too chicken-sh!t to come out of the house. It really is a shame that the president of the United States can get his ass kicked by a guy with no legs.
Yes folks, that is correct. Bush refused to meet with the same Max Cleland who he personally nominated to a $136,000 per year gig on the board of directors at the Export-Import Bank of the United States.

Oh, and nevermind if actually meeting Max at the gate of the ranch in Crawford - no less accompanied by a platoon of Secret Service agents - would have made good fodder for hordes of drooling journalistic yardapes.
 

sillymofo

Banned
Aug 11, 2003
5,817
2
0
I didn't read much but the Cambodia argument.... for those that are stupid enough to think crossing the borders of Vietnam into Cambodia is an instant vacation, you really need to do a reality check. Off and on, Cambodia was used as a transport route for the Vietnamese Communist to transport their troops and goods, along with Laos.

My dad was a Scout Ranger (South Vietnamese Army), and even though the US "wasn't" in Cambodia, the South Vietnamese Army sure did, because he was. Many battles were fought between North and South Vietnamese (and who knows what else) in Cambodia and Laos, and non was accounted for. So don't let any dumb shiet that don't even know where Vietnam is geographically talk shiets about being in or near Cambodia is a trip. In case you have doubts, the effin Mekong Delta do run up that way.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
KERRY TO TAKE DOWN McCAIN AD
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html
"It's long past time that George Bush also take John McCain's advice and do the right thing by putting an end to the smears and lies attacking John Kerry's military service," says Kerry spokesperson David Wade.


And on the other side, the swiftboat liars have posted a third ad...their website is slammed, perhaps down, though. Will the liars never give up?

HA! And the new ad is with Steve Gardner who's already been proven to be a liar:

Who is Steve Gardner?
Swift Boat Vet "eyewitness" was not present for events leading to Kerry's medals or Purple Hearts
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408240001
Gardner admitted that "he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals," reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage's radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry's three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was "not on the boat with him [Kerry]" when that injury occurred...

...in at least two interviews, Gardner has falsely claimed that he was present for the incidents leading to Kerry's receipt of awards...

...In an apparent attempt to substantiate his status as an eyewitness to key Kerry events, Gardner claimed on Scarborough Country, "[T]hat boat never left the dock that I wasn't aboard it with John Kerry, never. I was with that boat everywhere we went." Gardner went on to make assertions regarding the events that occurred on March 13, 1969, involving Kerry's rescue of Jim Rassmann, for which Kerry received the Bronze Star. Gardner claimed to know that Kerry fled the scene on the river that day while the other three boats stayed and that Kerry then "turned around and came all the way back to pick up Mr. Rassmann that he had thrown off his boat when he took off, when he fled down the canal." But later in the show, Gardner admitted to not being present that day. When Scarborough attempted to revisit the "March 13, 1969 incident," Gardner said, "I'm not going to deal with that. Because I wasn't there."...

...On the August 2 broadcast of Savage Nation, Gardner himself claimed that all of the wounds for which Kerry received Purple Hearts "were superficial wounds, and I mean very superficial, scratches. The very first one is the only one that I can actually attest to because I was there when that wound happened." But Gardner was not there when Kerry sustained that wound; as noted above, Gardner went on to admit: "I was not on the boat with him but I -- in the next three days following that, I was with him on the boat going to take our new position up down there on the seaward operations."


From the ad:

I spent more time on John Kerry's boat than any other crew member. John Kerry hasn't been honest. He has been deceitful. John Kerry claims that he spent Christmas in 1968 in Cambodia and that is categorically a lie. Not in December. Not in January. We were never in Cambodia on a secret mission, ever.


What a freakin' LIAR!
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
More proof Kerry's version of events is true and the swiftliars version false:
A Vietnam-era Bronze Star citation discovered by NEWSWEEK documents Kerry?s version of wartime events...
A previously undisclosed Navy record obtained by NEWSWEEK supports John Kerry?s claim that he was under fire when he rescued a U.S. Green Beret who had pitched overboard from Kerry?s 50-foot Swift Boat during a short but intense engagement in Vietnam's Mekong Delta in March 1969.


Link
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: arsbanned
More proof Kerry's version of events is true and the swiftliars version false:
A Vietnam-era Bronze Star citation discovered by NEWSWEEK documents Kerry?s version of wartime events...
A previously undisclosed Navy record obtained by NEWSWEEK supports John Kerry?s claim that he was under fire when he rescued a U.S. Green Beret who had pitched overboard from Kerry?s 50-foot Swift Boat during a short but intense engagement in Vietnam's Mekong Delta in March 1969.


Link

Lambert?s surviving military records do not include the initial recommendation for this medal, so there is no way to know who filled the required role of witness to vouch for Lambert?s actions. But the citation contains such detail about the actions of both Thurlow and Lambert?actions that Kerry cannot have known since his launch was on the far side of the river?that it seems implausible Kerry could have written the recommendation.

Interesting.

And Thurlow's diversion about why he got his and then there's Elliott's own signature on a form recommending Thurlow and Lambert for their awards:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0820041kerry1.html
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I vote for making this a non-issue. How is driving a boat around Vietnam going to make Kerry fit to be our next Commander-in-Chief? What happened 35 years ago matters in the grand scheme of things, but Kerry's contribution doesn't affect his fitness to be president. Millions of Americans are in the military, and I daresay that not every one of them, regardless of how decorated, is fit to be president, yet this is what he's basing his campaign on.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Here's more from the CBS article. Basically it states that Bush has gained NOTHING from launching this smear campaign. It's backfired on him. whoops!
# Republican pollster Neil Newhouse said Mr. Bush had the advantage when the debate centered on Kerry's actions in Vietnam because the questions raised doubts about Kerry's credibility. Now that the debate has shifted to questions about campaign tactics and political insiders, Newhouse said, Mr. Bush lost his advantage.

"Bush gained early, now it's a wash," he said.

William Benoit, professor at the University of Missouri-Columbia, said McCain, who was a prisoner of war during Vietnam, erased any early advantage that Mr. Bush might have had.

McCain has called the anti-Kerry advertisement "dishonest" and "dishonorable."

"When Senator McCain comes out and says he's a hero ... how many Republicans are going to reject it?" Benoit said. "I just think Senator McCain has neutralized that issue in large part."
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Here's more from the CBS article. Basically it states that Bush has gained NOTHING from launching this smear campaign. It's backfired on him. whoops!
# Republican pollster Neil Newhouse said Mr. Bush had the advantage when the debate centered on Kerry's actions in Vietnam because the questions raised doubts about Kerry's credibility. Now that the debate has shifted to questions about campaign tactics and political insiders, Newhouse said, Mr. Bush lost his advantage.

"Bush gained early, now it's a wash," he said.

William Benoit, professor at the University of Missouri-Columbia, said McCain, who was a prisoner of war during Vietnam, erased any early advantage that Mr. Bush might have had.

McCain has called the anti-Kerry advertisement "dishonest" and "dishonorable."

"When Senator McCain comes out and says he's a hero ... how many Republicans are going to reject it?" Benoit said. "I just think Senator McCain has neutralized that issue in large part."

A pollster, and 1 Political Scientist doesn't say much to me when I'm a couple of classes and a dissertation away from obtaining the same degree. As NBC pointed out accurately today Bush is up all across the board on likely and registered voters. What is to account for this recent transition? Its nasty politicking out there and the Swift Boaters are having there way atm. Things will get even hotter once move-on starts pressing out more ads depending on quality.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
CAD,

As I recall your the guy I had an argument with about income taxes and you resented people who wanted to increase your taxes based on just their arbitrtary feelings because it wasn't right? Now you post a letter about people who want to run campaign ad's that are at best misguided, based on nothing but their feelings?

That seems to me to be a bit of a double standard, doesn't it? I guess it depends on whose feelings are involved.

Campaigns are based on persuading people's "feelings". You know...Who YOU the voter "feel" is the best leader. Taxes aren't that way - they are for collecting revenue.
Nice try though...

CkG


LMAO!! I also know what the right tax plan is based on my feeling. Your just rationalizing.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO!! I also know what the right tax plan is based on my feeling.

Which was exactly my point in the previous discussion - you use "feelings" to justify your tax policy - not logic. Anyway - that isn't the topic here.

CkG
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: Gaard

Bush was too chicken-sh!t to come out of the house. It really is a shame that the president of the United States can get his ass kicked by a guy with no legs.
Yes folks, that is correct. Bush refused to meet with the same Max Cleland who he personally nominated to a $136,000 per year gig on the board of directors at the Export-Import Bank of the United States.

Oh, and nevermind if actually meeting Max at the gate of the ranch in Crawford - no less accompanied by a platoon of Secret Service agents - would have made good fodder for hordes of drooling journalistic yardapes.

I wonder why he just didn't invite him in the house?
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |