wow. i didn't fvcking know they did that. ill say it again (as i did in OT): the parents are a bunch of fvcking morons that need to be hit the face 10 times each. i really really want to just hit them.
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
All esle aside. This Michel Shiavo guy is a class A P...R...I...C...K!
What kind of horses ASS wouldn't even the parents of their dying daughter be by her side in her final hours. Forget feeding tubes and all of the other BS.
That is just plain un-human and IMO this action alone proves that this man is lower than whale sh!t, and whale sh!t, my friends, is at the bottom of the ocean.
:disgust:
Maybe the parents should've thought twice about slandering and libeling michael. Also, when they decided to sell off those donation lists to special interest groups, they turned into pure scum. I wouldn't let them near my wife either.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/29/schindlers.list/index.html
Originally posted by: joshw10
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
you were wrong.
finally this can be over.
Life affirming my as*....As the controversy swirled, Frist and other Republicans seized on the issue as a chance to affirm what President Bush has called "a culture of life" that he seeks to promote in U.S. society. But there were also signs that some Republicans viewed the case in political terms as a way to rally socially conservative core supporters.
An unsigned memo distributed to Republican senators as they were considering legislation in the Schiavo case said, "This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue." The memo called the case "a great political issue" and suggested that it could be used against Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), who is up for reelection next year, because he had refused to co-sponsor the legislation. GOP leaders later disavowed the memo, insisting that their motives were life-affirming, not political.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: joshw10
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
you were wrong.
finally this can be over.
Yup, I guess I was. I thought that the America I live in was better than this.
We've just witnessed a judicial homicide.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: joshw10
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
you were wrong.
finally this can be over.
Yup, I guess I was. I thought that the America I live in was better than this.
We've just witnessed judicial mercy.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: joshw10
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
you were wrong.
finally this can be over.
Yup, I guess I was. I thought that the America I live in was better than this.
We've just witnessed a judicial homicide.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: joshw10
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
you were wrong.
finally this can be over.
Yup, I guess I was. I thought that the America I live in was better than this.
We've just witnessed a judicial homicide.
Originally posted by: umbrella39
CNN just annouced that Bush plans to lead his 11am press conference with Terry S.
Can't miss the chance to pander to the 20% who give a sh!t.
How do you figure? The courts ruled that Terri's wishes be kept.Originally posted by: Riprorin
Yup, I guess I was. I thought that the America I live in was better than this.Originally posted by: joshw10
you were wrong.Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
finally this can be over.
We've just witnessed a judicial homicide.
Where are those faith healers? Surely they could have restored her missing brain matter and made her whole again to where she could have danced a two-step out of the facility.Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
For all the relifreaks who keep dragging God into it:
If God didn't want her dead she wouldn't have died right? Or do people decide when one dies, rather than your god? (Meaning he is powerless to stop it, or can't be bothered to) And if he so clearly did want her to die, then aren't you a satanist to be opposing his wish? Do you claim to know whose time it is better than your own god?
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: joshw10
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Terri is going to live.
you were wrong.
finally this can be over.
Yup, I guess I was. I thought that the America I live in was better than this.
We've just witnessed a judicial homicide.
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
He doesn't have to have anything to gain except self-satisfaction and control. How many abusive men have you heard of who had much to gain--except much to lose?Originally posted by: PatboyX
DearQT is coming up with so many evil scenerios its making my head spin. and somehow finds the time to respond to all those who are questioning the logic...
however, i still have yet to see anyone respond to the prevailing idea that no one can figure out what the husband stands to gain if this really is such a dirty trick on his part...
Originally posted by: DearQT
He doesn't have to have anything to gain except self-satisfaction and control. How many abusive men have you heard of who had much to gain--except much to lose?Originally posted by: PatboyX
DearQT is coming up with so many evil scenerios its making my head spin. and somehow finds the time to respond to all those who are questioning the logic...
however, i still have yet to see anyone respond to the prevailing idea that no one can figure out what the husband stands to gain if this really is such a dirty trick on his part...
I'm glad the subject of keeping her alive is finally over, albeit the will of the so-called husband. And I do know that the average American will return to his/her business and forget Terri. However, I do hope that the few who care about our justice system will pursue this matter until a full investigation is made to answer the lingering questions.
The 11th Circuit court's decision, signed by Chief Judge J. L. Edmondson, was only a sentence long. But in a concurring opinion, Judge Stanley F. Birch Jr., appointed by the first President Bush in 1990, wrote that federal courts had no jurisdiction in the case and that the law enacted by Congress and President Bush allowing the Schindlers to seek a federal court review was unconstitutional.
"When the fervor of political passions moves the executive and legislative branches to act in ways inimical to basic constitutional principles, it is the duty of the judiciary to intervene," wrote Judge Birch, who has a reputation as consistently conservative. "If sacrifices to the independence of the judiciary are permitted today, precedent is established for the constitutional transgressions of tomorrow."
On the March 28 edition of MSNBC's Scarborough Country, host Joe Scarborough interviewed Dr. Ronald Cranford, one of the two neurologists selected by Michael Schiavo to examine Terri Schiavo pursuant to an October 2001 appellate court mandate. As part of that duty, Cranford "reviewed her medical records and personally conducted a neurological examination of Mrs. Schiavo," according to the June 2003 Florida appeals court review of that hearing.
Following is the transcript of the interview:
SCARBOROUGH: Now, the question on everybody's mind tonight is this: How is Terri Schiavo doing? You know, it's been 10 days. She is starting her 11th day now without food and water. Let's go back to Pinellas Park [Florida], where Lisa Daniels [MSNBC daytime anchor] is standing by -- Lisa.
DANIELS: Well, Joe, at this point, we are going to delve into the medical aspect of the story. I want to bring in Dr. Ronald Cranford. He's a neurologist at Hennepin Medical Center in Minneapolis. And, Doctor, before we continue, I want our viewers to understand what your role was in the legal case. I understand that Michael Schiavo and his team asked you to examine his wife. Is that correct?
CRANFORD: Yes. Yes, they did.
DANIELS: And from my understanding, I just want to be accurate, you examined Terri Schiavo for about 45 minutes. Is that right?
CRANFORD: I think 42 minutes, but 45 is fine, sure.
DANIELS: All right. Well, we want to be accurate here. What was your conclusion at the end of --
[crosstalk]
CRANFORD: Wait a minute. You are not accurate on a lot of things here. You're saying a lot of -- she's not starving to death. Do you understand that? She is dehydrating to death.
DANIELS: Well, why do you say that? Tell us how you came to that conclusion?
[crosstalk]
CRANFORD: Can I tell you why? Because I have done this 25 to 50 times. I don't know how many times Joe has done it, but I've done it 25 to 50 times in similar situations. And they die within 10 to 14 days.
Nancy Cruzan did not die in six days [as guest Patrick Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition suggested earlier in the program]. She died in 11 days, 11.5 hours. And Terri Schiavo will die within 10 to 14 days. And they are dying of dehydration, not starvation. And that's just a lie. And Joe doesn't have any idea what he is talking about. And you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
DANIELS: Well --
CRANFORD: I have been at the bedside of these patients. I know what they die from. I've seen them die. And this is all bogus. It's all just a bunch of crap that you are saying. It's totally wrong.
DANIELS: Well, with all due respect, Doctor, it sounds like you think that you know what you are talking about, so let's ask you about that.
CRANFORD: Sure.
DANIELS: Are you 100 percent correct in your opinion that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state? Do you agree with that?
CRANFORD: I am 105 percent sure she is in a vegetative state. And the autopsy will show severe irreversible brain damage to the higher centers, yes.
DANIELS: Why are you so sure, Doctor?
CRANFORD: Because I examined her. The court-appointed guardian examined her. Four neurologists at the hospital where she was has said she's carried a diagnosis of vegetative state for 12 years. Every neurologist that examined her, except for Dr. [William] Hammesfahr [a neurologist selected by Terri Schiavo's parents], who is a charlatan, has said she is in vegetative state. That's what the court found. Just because you don't like --
[crosstalk]
DANIELS: Doctor, was a CAT scan -- Doctor, your critics would ask you, was a CAT scan used? Was an MRI taken? Were any of these tests taken?
CRANFORD: You don't know the answer to that? The CAT scan was done in 1996, 2002. We spent a lot of time in court showing the irreversible -- you don't have copies of those CAT scans? How can you say that?
The CAT scans are out there, distributed to other people. You have got to look at the facts. The CAT scan is out there. It shows severe atrophy of the brain. The autopsy is going to show severe atrophy of the brain. And you're asking me if a CAT scan was done? How could you possibly be so stupid?
SCARBOROUGH: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait a second.
[crosstalk]
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second, if I can interrupt here.
CRANFORD: Go ahead. Joe, interrupt me.
SCARBOROUGH: Why don't you go ahead and tell the rest of the story there? Why don't you tell us that the radiologist that looked at the two CAT scans said she showed improvement in 2002 over 1996? You know, you seem so sure of yourself. The Associated Press reported yesterday --
CRANFORD: Joe, the judge didn't believe him.
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. You're so sure of yourself -- respond to this. AP had a report yesterday. They said seven doctors have looked at her. Four said she was in persistent vegetative state. You were one of them, hired by Michael Schiavo to do that. There were three others that looked at her that disagreed. How can you be so absolutely sure that everybody that agrees with you is 100 percent accurate and everybody on the other side is a charlatan?
CRANFORD: Joe, Judge -- Judge [George W.] Greer disallowed, didn't believe what [Dr. William] Maxfield [a doctor selected by Terri Schiavo's parents] said. You got your numbers wrong. There were eight neurologists saw her. Seven of the eight said she was in a vegetative state. Only one said she wasn't.
SCARBOROUGH: I am quoting an Associated Press report from yesterday.
CRANFORD: Joe, you've got to get your facts straight.
SCARBOROUGH: I have got my facts straight.
CRANFORD: Get your facts straight. You've got your facts way off.
SCARBOROUGH: Why don't we talk about -- hold on a second.
CRANFORD: Go ahead.
SCARBOROUGH: You talked about a 1996 scan.
CRANFORD: No, 2002, 2002.
SCARBOROUGH: Let's talk about it. A radiologist told the court that the 2002 scan actually showed improvement over the 1996 scan. Is that inaccurate? Did the AP report that wrong?
CRANFORD: Absolutely. Maxfield said it was improved. And Judge Greer didn't buy it because the others said it wasn't improved. It was probably worse than it was before.
SCARBOROUGH: Is he a charlatan also?
CRANFORD: Yes. Maxfield is an HBO [hyperbaric oxygen], vasodilator -- look it up, Joe. See what vasodilator does. See what hyperbaric oxygen, see in these cases, and you tell me they are not charlatans. Just because you don't agree with me -- I don't call everybody a charlatan. I'm not calling [Dr. Richard] Cheshire [who has argued that Terri Schiavo is not in a persistent vegetative state] a charlatan. I think he's a reputable neurologist. I think he examined her, he interviewed her. So, just because I disagree, I don't call them charlatans. But you have got your facts so far off that it's unbelievable, Joe. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. You've never been at the bedside of these patients. And this will come out in the next three to five years about this condition and starvation.
SCARBOROUGH: You were there 42 minutes, Doctor.
CRANFORD: Yes, I was.
SCARBOROUGH: You are only one doctor that's been there. And somehow, in your 42 minutes of observing her, you have all the answers and everybody that disagrees is dead wrong, I guess.
CRANFORD: No, that's just a -- you know what? You've gotta see what Judge Greer said. You've gotta see what the appeals court said. If you read that, Joe, you will understand why the judge decided the way he did.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
CRANFORD: He didn't believe Hammesfahr. He didn't believe Maxfield. And it's not starvation. And Nancy Cruzan did not die in six days. She died in 11 days and 11.5 hours, 11 days and 11.5 hours.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
CRANFORD: OK?
SCARBOROUGH: Thank you, Doctor.
CRANFORD: My pleasure.
SCARBOROUGH: You know what? This is the disappointing thing. You try to have a conversation. You try to talk about what is going on. And I found this as an attorney, too. I have been attorneys for plaintiffs. I have been attorneys for defendants. And what I always find out is, there are certain doctors -- I am not claiming that this doctor is a charlatan. I don't know his body of work. I am not claiming that he is a hired gun.
But too many doctors out there can be bought off by attorneys on either side. And then they come out, instead of telling you the facts, you get into debate like you are talking to an attorney. It is very, very disappointing.
I want to apologize to Lisa for interrupting her, but the thing is, Lisa was getting attacked because of what I said. I think that is unfair.
But there?s something being lost in this discussion of brain imaging methods. The fact that an MRI would give a better structural picture of Terri Schiavo?s brain does not at all mean that the existing CAT scan isn?t good enough for present purposes. I see much serious armchair scan-reading in this thread that signals ignorance of the subject. Let me tell you: if you are sufficiently familiar with brains and brain images, you do not need an MRI to tell you how severely the brain in the pictured CAT scan is damaged, nor do you need to see more slices than the one depicted here. This single image shows a very severely damaged brain. The large ?blue blobs? in the middle are ventricles, also present in healthy brains (you can see the two little dark crescent shapes in the brain on the right) that have expanded to such a large size because the overall brain volume is so low. Cranial space that would otherwize have been filled by gray matter is now filled with cerebrospinal fluid. And yes, that?s what the blue space is: cerebrospinal fluid that is filling up space left behind by necrotic brain tissue that has been scavenged and removed by the body. The white squiggly things are white matter - connective tracts that have the loose, uncoiled look about them that they do because, again, the grey matter that once compressed them is no longer there, so they ?float? loosely in CSF. The gigantic ventricles, expanded white matter, and undifferentiated blue space in that scan all point to the same thing: massive loss of grey matter in the cerebral cortex. You don?t need an MRI to tell you that, it?s clearly visible in the CAT scan.
It is true that given the poor resolution of this image, it?s possible that some cortical tissue has been spared. But that doesn?t matter. Whatever wisps of cortex we might be missing in this image are not enough to sustain behaviors that could differentiate Terri Schiavo from any other vertebrate. All the neural equipment you need to do ocular following and emotional responses is subcortical. All the neural equipment you need to be a self-aware, reasoning, behaving human being is cortical. And since i gather this image was made some time ago, the present condition of the brain can only be worse.
There is no way any qualified brain doctor or scientist could look at this image and suggest that significant recovery of function is possible. The fact that we could have all this discussion on the subject is a triumph of politics over science. Tragic for Terri Schiavo, and really for us all.
UPDATE 03/29/05: Dan Abrams interviews Ronald E. Cranford M.D. who was one of the neurologists who examined Terri Schiavo for The Abrams Report. This report includes pictures of Terri Schiavo's CAT scan and Dr. Cranford comments on the extent of her brain damage.
ABRAMS: Let's talk about the CT scan. You actually have the CT scan.
CRANFORD: Yes, this is a CT scan of Terri Schiavo taken in 2002, the most recent CT scan done on her, 2002.
ABRAMS: Tell us what it means.
CRANFORD: Well it shows extremely severe atrophy. Where those black areas are, that should be white. That should be cerebral cortex, and so really there is no cerebral cortex left. It's just a shrinkage of the cerebral cortex. It's a thin band of white on the outside and any neurologist or any radiologist looking at those CT scans will tell you that her atrophy could not be more severe than it is. So even if she were mentally conscious, which she's not, she's irreversible. She's been like this for 15 years, Dan, and that CT scan shows the most extreme severe atrophy of the higher centers of the brain.