Official World Cup Soccer Thread

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yuchai

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
980
2
76
Their defense though is second to none. Their keeper is good if not exactly as good as the Netherlands keeper in my opinion but he's not a slouch. They rely too much on David Villa for scoring and capitalizing on attacks they generate. They work well at tiring out their opponents. However, as shown by the game with Switzerland that they lost, they do not do well against another defensive team. Their lack of offense versus a good defense virtually shuts down all forward progress by them. This seems to make them antsy and break away from their mode of controlling the ball in the middle to try desperate attacks. This leaves them open for counter attacks that Switzerland was able to make happen. Luckily Switzerland was not an offensive team or they might have had more goals.

One last item of note about the Spaniards that is both a strength and a weakness is they clog the middle. Their short pass game in the middle requires them to have 4 to 6 players very close together. For most teams, this is a disastrous thing to do. That is because most teams do not have 4 to 6 guys that are very quick, capable of one-touch passes and flicks with very good ball control and traps. Without those elements, trying to play the middle all the time is asking to have the ball stripped and jammed back down your goal. However, for teams like Spain that can do this, it can draw in the other team so that when Spain does spread out for an attack they catch the opposition by surprise.

Mostly agree, but disagree about Spain's performance against defensive teams and that they're not good offensively. Look at some of the teams they've won against in the knockout stage: Portugal, Paraguay, Germany. All of them played defensively, but every time Spain was able to get a goal in within regulation time, and without an in-form Torres.

Also, people keep getting amazed why teams like Portugal and Germany end up playing defensive against Spain. I would argue that it's not really a choice. When going against Spain who can completely dominate the midfield, you're kind of forced to go defensive and play the counter.

Spain only scored once in each of those games, but guess what, it's going to be difficult to score against an opponent who is effectively turtling up at the back with tons of bodies inside the box. All three teams (Portugal/Paraguay/Germany) all had extremely organized defences that are hard to beat even if they're not playing a defensive game.

On Switzerland, I would attribute that to the Spaniards not having really settled into the rhythm, given that it was the first game and all (you can see that they have looked a lot sharper and improved a lot since). I would also argue that if the Swiss tried to play a more offensive game they would probably have lost.
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
Spain is definitely vulnerable if you get the ball away from them. I thought Germany would have a good chance with their fast counterattack, and was surprised when they never capitalized on it. They did, however, look their most dangerous when counterattacking especially in the second half.

I haven't put much thought into the Ned-Spa match-up but I would imagine it'll be a more entertaining game than the Ger-Spa game.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Mostly agree, but disagree about Spain's performance against defensive teams and that they're not good offensively. Look at some of the teams they've won against in the knockout stage: Portugal, Paraguay, Germany. All of them played defensively, but every time Spain was able to get a goal in within regulation time, and without an in-form Torres.

Also, people keep getting amazed why teams like Portugal and Germany end up playing defensive against Spain. I would argue that it's not really a choice. When going against Spain who can completely dominate the midfield, you're kind of forced to go defensive and play the counter.

Spain only scored once in each of those games, but guess what, it's going to be difficult to score against an opponent who is effectively turtling up at the back with tons of bodies inside the box. All three teams (Portugal/Paraguay/Germany) all had extremely organized defences that are hard to beat even if they're not playing a defensive game.

On Switzerland, I would attribute that to the Spaniards not having really settled into the rhythm, given that it was the first game and all (you can see that they have looked a lot sharper and improved a lot since). I would also argue that if the Swiss tried to play a more offensive game they would probably have lost.

Germany didn't turtle up until spain started to finally press an attack at the 65 minute mark. Up until that point they were pressing every chance they had. Also, Portugal is NOT a defensive team. They are almost as bad as Argentina about pressing for all out attacks. It may seem like a defensive game when Spain sits around in the mid field playing short passes back and forth all game long. This is because the other team can't force an attack when they can't get control of the ball.

Here are the key elements to a true defensive team.

4:4:2 (4 defenders, 4 mids, and 2 forwards)

All defenders stay back. None go up to help the mids or the offense. Despite 4 mids, they rarely have either center mid attack with the forwards. A defending team plays passing games in the back field or long balls to the forwards. A defensive team does not lunge all the time, are content to contain the forward movement of the opposition, and clear the shit out of the ball any chance they get out of bounds. These are the hallmarks of a defensive team. Portugal and Germany are not defensive teams. Do they have good defensive players? Yes, but they do not play defensively as their main tactic. They are both attacking teams. They can switch to turtling up as needed sometimes though.

And Spain as it stands now is not an offensive team. They are content to play it slow, pass the ball around in the mid field, and rely right now on David Villa for scoring. Xavi, Pedro, and Torres all take shots on goal, but their striking ability as it stands is not that good. Even with settled, open net shots, they typically send the ball sailing over or beside the goal. Or they shot right at the goalie or a goal post. They have not been the most accurate at shooting lately. Which is why I said their offense is lacking. They have demonstrated this all throughout the World Cup. Spain has low scoring games not because the teams they are playing are defensive monsters. No, they are low scoring because they can not make a damn shot on goal!! Several times they have the wide open shot with no defenders around, plenty of time to settle the ball where they want to place a shot, and the ball goes wide of the goal. That's a perfect example of a problem with offensive execution. 11 shots at Germany before the half and none of them went in despite some of the shots being very make-able from better strikers shows this.

Look, I have no favorite team and only watch because I am a fan of playing the sport. I just call it like I see it from about 22 years of experience including college ball and semi-pros. I still regularly play but because of torn meniscus, shoulders, Lisfrank fracture repair in the left foot requiring 5 screws, and other injuries I only currently play for recreation.

The Dutch may have much better defensive capabilities than what they've shown through the WC. Spain may have a better offense as well. But I don't follow all these teams all the time. I am only going off their WC games and a few previous ones I managed to watch on occasion that had some of these players.
 
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yuchai

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
980
2
76
Yes, I agree that Spain do not have a good, in form finisher at the moment other than Villa right now, which is part of the reason why they haven't been able to score more goals. They have not done well in terms of executing/converting their chances. I guess my definition of an offensive minded team is one that takes the attacking initiative in the game, and routinely create more chances/half chances than the opposition, rather than waiting for a counter attack opportunity or defensive mistake.

The only team who really tried attacking Spain, IMO, is Chile. Guess what? They were the only other team who actually scored against them.

Heck, even if we used your definition:

Shots (on goal)
Germany 5(2) against Spain 13(5)
Paraguay 9(4) versus Spain 16(6)
Portugal 9(3) versus Spain 19(10)

Portugal is offensive minded? Maybe ordinarily, but I don't see it this WC. People get caught up that they scored 7 against N Korea (which by the way is mostly due to a complete meltdown in the N Korean defense after the first couple of goals), but they scored exactly 0 in their other 3 matches....They played two of the most boring, scoreless games this tournament, against Ivory Coast and Brazil. The most threatening chances they had were typically long shots from Cristiano Ronaldo.

Anyway, I would concede that Germany does have good attacking qualities. It just doesn't seem that way when they played against Spain.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
NASA rips jabulani

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They also blamed the ball’s light weight of just 440 grams for the poor flight and lack of ­consistency, known as the ‘knuckle effect’.

NASA also believe the altitude could have increased the unpredictable nature of the ball, as most stadiums in South Africa are 1,000 metres above sea level.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Yuchai,

Just because you aren't shooting on goal doesn't mean you are not an offensive minded team. That just means that an offensive team is being shut down by the defense or more likely, at the midfield. This is the case that happened with Germany. They are an offensive team, missing a key offensive player, that couldn't get the ball past the midfield. They were not content to sit around and pass the ball constantly for control in the back or mid field and wait for an opening. Spain has been doing exactly that all tournament long. That is not a bad thing by any means. It is a great strategy and one that led them to the finals of the WC.

If you look at the shots Germany has taken thus far in the WC it's usually 15+. They are constantly attacking when they can. The two exceptions were against Ghana with only 13 shots and then Spain with only 5. You can't say a team that does 19 shots with 4 goals against Argentina is a defensive team just because they only get 5 shots again Spain. That only proves my point that Spain is playing very defensively instead.

But also, I will state that just looking at the raw numbers doesn't give a clear picture either. Why? Because Spain also has a ton of shots in most games in the WC. The difference is WHEN they started to press their attack. Most games they have relatively few shots on goal in the first half. It's the second half when the other team is finally worn out from chasing the ball around that they start pressing their attack. That is not saying Spain is a straight up defensive only team. It just means they are a control based team. Which they are in the midfield. They have a solid defense, they control the mid field, and only attack when they get a chance and smell blood. When they do attack, they attack relentlessly though. Which is a good thing because they have terrible executions on their attacks. Which is why I stated they have a semi-weak offense. Going with 22 shots in a game and making 1 lucky goal is not the ear mark of a team with great offensive strikers. Or 24 shots against the Swiss and making no goals. Part of this is their lack of control while shooting as opposed to passing, and another part is waiting too long for the "perfect" shot and up being forced to take a worse shot than they should have. That point is a mindset and coaching problem for the most part.


As far as shots against Spain it is

Swiss 8 shots with 1 goal
Honduras 9 shots with 0 goals
Chile 9 shots with 1 goals
Portugal 9 with 0 goals
Paraguay 9 with 0 goals
Germany 5 with 0 goals

In all those games, Germany had the least but were missing a key offensive player in their line up with a very poor substitution for him. Paraguay was about the only "defensive" oriented team and I say that lightly. None of the South American teams really focus on defense. Paraguay is about the most defensive oriented South American team I can think of historically speaking and from what I saw in the cup.

The other statistic to look at is corner kicks by the opposing team and goal kicks. These result in an attack against Spain that failed for whatever reason and didn't initially turn into a shot on goal or may have. The total numbers and when they happen start giving you a clue as to a basic style of play. Of course, just watching the game and seeing the flow is the best. Too bad one statistic that is not kept is little things like non penalties on attacks. Germany had a few attacks that were robbed against Spain that were borderline fouls in the box but the ref allowed Spain to play on.

I feel like I'm rambling a little bit here so I'm make a summary. I still say my initial assessment of both teams is the best as I see it. This is based off stats and the games I've watched and my semi-professional opinion. I'm not in anyway knocking Spain as it seems you may think I am doing so. I was merely pointing out unbiased observations and my opinions. Spain is a great team and again I think they have what it takes right now to win the Cup. I personally think they will trounce the Netherlands if they can manage to put 1 goal in out of 20+ shots I know they will eventually take in the second half. This is what they've done thus far and what I expect them to do. However, I'm not counting the Dutch out because they have all their offense ready, AND they have strikers capable of making miraculous shots that actually go in. They may have less shots on goal, but that doesn't matter as much when they make more of those actually go in the goal. Because the only numbers that matter at the end of the game are those on the scoreboard.
 
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Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
ugh I might miss the finals.

wifes grandfather died, wake is 3pm(game should end around 3:45 my time) till 8pm.

I am apparantly expected to be at the wake for the entire 5 hours.

What can I say, I hate funerals(and wakes, why go to the same thing twice), I met the guy like 3 times because his health was extremely poor, and I love soccer more than about anything else. I hate watching people cry
 
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KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
118
116
ugh I might miss the finals.

wifes grandfatther died, wake is 3pm(game should end around 3:45 my time) till 8pm.

I am apparantly expected to be at the wake for the entire 5 hours.

Damn, I'm sorry for both of your losses.

KT
 

yuchai

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
980
2
76
With Germany - they are very very good at quick and effective counter attacks. Against England and Argentina they were able to score very early goals. Both were basically due to poor defending by their opponents in the beginning of the game. When they are ahead they really take advantage of their organized defense and counter attacking powers as their opponents are forced to pour forward and leave even more gaps at the back (England and Argentina do not have great defenses in the first place). This is why they were basically able to score even more goals; it also helps that their strikers are very sharp and basically scored on almost all good chances they got.

When they went behind the two times in the tournament, they have not shown that they have the organization/mentality/determination to attack and come back when the opposition has the luxury of staying back. (Yes, they played 10 men against Serbia so it's not exactly a fair comparison, it's just that there are only so many games to look at for 1 WC). You also don't see them scoring plenty of goals against Ghana when they didn't score early. Another factor in that game is that Ghana didn't have to pour forward because it wasn't an elimination game. It was better for them not to concede another than to try to get a goal back given the results in the other game.

Is missing Muller against Spain really the critical factor? He's only played 7 times for his country and he's so critical to Germany's game that he has no viable replacements? I think he's a great player and a very bright prospect at age 20 but I think everyone is jumping the gun a little with him. We can see more of him at the game against Uruguay on Saturday.

Anyways, I rest my case with Germany. As I've said my previous post I agree that they tried played attacking soccer in general, just didn't see it against Spain. But I still don't see why you consider Portugal a good offensive team (more so than Spain) given what they have done this tournament..

Lastly just wanted to add that I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm a neutral myself and it's just all good discussion to me. Cheers!
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,158
17,470
126
It looks like I'll be at a kid's birthday party during final

my wife's comment was "So? You are recording it no?"

I guess I'll take a radio with me.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
if its not your kids birthday, skip it.

i wouldnt mind as much but we are going out of town and the wake goes till 8pm.

I have no idea if I'll even be able to watch it till I get home Monday night, and chance of going 24+ hours without knowing the result are slim to none
 

cfaalm

Junior Member
Nov 18, 2008
2
0
0
My pre-synopsis for the upcoming Netherlands versus Spain final.

Netherlands up until now has been playing scrappy ball. ......

So what is my verdict for the final game? It is this. Unless the Dutch shore up their defensive game the Spaniards are going to eat them for breakfast. On the flip-side, if the Dutch can remain patient, don't fall for running around endlessly chasing after the ball and getting tired, and wait for the counter attack opportunities they may surprise the world and take home the cup. Lady luck may also continue to favor the Dutch, but she can be fickle at the best of times. Personally I say that Spain is the clear winners baring any major defensive changes by the Dutch or pure luck going to them. While my brain says Spain my heart says Dutch because of my Dutch heritage and the fact I lived there for about 6 years. This makes me root for the underdogs this time around. I can only hope the Orange boys pull it out somehow.

Many here in The Netherlands have complained about the Oranje defense. I'd say that most goals Oranje got against them were due to lack of concentration eg. Forlan's equalizer. It's only been a few times when strikers seemed to walk right by them (e.g. Kaka's challenge vs Van Stekelenburg). While Van Marwijk has said Spain/Barcelona is the way they want to play, they haven't come anywhere near in style or execution, but they are in the finals nonetheless. I think because they aren't too bad individually, they are a tight group and they have a winners mentality. Especially the latter two were missed too often in European and World Championships. Did anyone think they'd beat Brazil? There is no way Spain is going to get the cup on a platter, however clean they play it, however scrappy Oranje plays.

I'll be rooting for Oranje simply because I am Dutch. I won't be upset however if Spain appears to be the better team. With an octopus and a parakeet predicting two different outcomes it's clear that even the greatest forces amongst us cannot agree
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,158
17,470
126
if its not your kids birthday, skip it.

i wouldnt mind as much but we are going out of town and the wake goes till 8pm.

I have no idea if I'll even be able to watch it till I get home Monday night, and chance of going 24+ hours without knowing the result are slim to none

I would like to live.
 
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