Oh For Crying out loud

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BansheeX

Senior member
Sep 10, 2007
348
0
0
Originally posted by: Napalm
Originally posted by: BansheeX
Oh, bull-fucking shit already. Leave it to socialist Craig to be the first one blaming it on the free market. This begins with the Fed, the central bank, one of the ten planks of the communist manifesto. It begins there. Centralized price fixing of interest rates is a socialist idea,

You do know the "Fed" is actually the banking industry and not the government, don't you???? If not, see link:

http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/federal_reserve.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...dent_within_government

The Federal Reserve is a government institution with private aspects, and they do not operate to make a profit like a purely private institution would. Their powers to price fix interest rates for private banks, monopolize the money supply, and allow them to make interest on phantom loans from fractional reserves despite this being illegal for any other industry are a result of government legislation. The board of governors is also appointed by the President. They apparently now have the ability to bail out practically anyone with an inflation trough at the legitimate saver's expense should they deem that entity "too big to fail." Fannie May and Freddie Mac were also quasi-government institutions, created years and years ago for idealist socialist purposes, but with an end-result quite the opposite. After their hedge fund blew up, the heads got millions in severance while shareholders were wiped out, and now all of their bad mortgages are implicitly backed by U.S. treasuries at interest rate compensation way below real inflation. Unless foreigners want to keep buying bonds at these loser rates to extend credit to broke Americans to buy their exports, you're going to see the bond market implode at some point, possible when ARMs start to reset in 2010. Wall Street is in a state of disbelief right now, searching for some kind of bottom after each crisis hits, but its the norm for years to come.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: lac3513
Failing banks should be allowed to fail. The near term financial pain would be significant. Stakeholders should sue to try and recover losses from stupid executives and the government should stay out of the bailout business and get back into the oversight business. In the long term a stronger financial system would emerge and the CEOs of financial institutions would learn not to count on a
government bailout.

However, the goverment will try to make it look llike they are helping but in the end all they will accomplish is hundreds of billions of dollars added to the defceit. If I hear VP Cheney say again that deficit don't matter I may have to buy gold ingots and keep them under my mattress.

Sounds great; the problem is when banks fail the system collapses - the near term pain isn't 'sgnificant', it's 'tremendous'.

Failing banks should be rescued from failure, but ownership and management should be hung out to dry. Take over the bank, right it, and re-issue the stock, while confiscating executive compensation (not ordinary salaries, but bonuses, profits from stock/option compensation, and discretionary payouts) retroactively to help offset losses. (Either for a set period, or based on forensic accounting's answer to 'when did they know the ship was sinking?'). This would require changing laws, and it will never happen.

I really think we should adopt China's policy with dealing with people that cheat others out of money. Take them out back and shoot them. These execs are running these companies into the ground all in order to make money for themselves. They don't see the large picture. They see $$$ in their wallets. If these greedy SOBs had to think about taking a .45 in the squash when they wipe out 1,000's of peoples lives in one fell swope they'd use better practices.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: CrazyHelloDeli
Whatever happens, the only thing we can be sure of is that Dave predicted it.

Awwww thank you

:lips: :heart:

I didn't see this earlier.

All I heard for 18 months was it was never going to happen.

It's quite something watching so many people be wrong.

A broken clock is right twice day
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In general, this is nothing more than wealth redistribution, with the wrong people losing.

Exactly. This whole thing is like watching a robbery in slow motion... and right on the front pages.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Craig234
Where are the right-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are federal insurance like FDIC that make borrowers less wary and encourage excessive risk?

If we just get rid of consumer protection like that, then the risk will properly keep businesses from overextending. It's all the Democrats' fault.
Where are all the left-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are the free market? That if we socialized all lending institutations there would be no need for profits?

If we just get rid of profits, then the businesses would keep from overextending. It's all the Republicans fault.

Well, the 'liberal agenda' is a regulated market keeping it serving society's interests and not running off a cliff to profit a few - while profiting people as the grease for themachine.

I tell you, I'm convinced that many or most right-wingers are stuck at the 13 year old level of understanding these issues, once they heard from some propagandist that democrats are against profit, and they realized profit has an important role to play and from then on consider themselves of opponents of the Democratic Party based on that straw man as they defend the nation from communism, not realizing what they're actually doing is enabling the blocking of helpful regulation.
Craig, what's your education and experience when it comes to finance and the markets? While you like to call me a "13 year old", I have a BS in Finance and an MBA, and I've been in insurance and financial services for 11 years.

And I can show you all kinds of examples where people who have far more education and experience than you do still appear affected by teenage-level fallacies.

Ayn Rand seemed to ruin more young men than about anyone else in the modern era. A whole generation of misguided right-wingers have been influended by her nonsense.

Alan Greenspan, who has credentials almost as good as yours, has some problems in that very area, depsite all of his extraordinary abilities.

Let's not even start on the fallacies in economics of some of our presidents.

I'm not saying by any means that you are like a 13 year old overall, I'm saying that that one specific fallacy that seems to have become such a pervasive myth for so many adults, is at the level of fallacy you would expect around the age of 13, not from serious people like yourself.

Call it parody now all you like, it represents the view of a whole lot of people. If you didn't mean it, you were at least making the misguided argument that it was any sort of counterpart to my post which pointed out the very believable and also misguided argument some on the right I think will make before long why the liberals are to blame.

I understand that when a myth is widespread, criticism of it sounds wild and crazy, until the process of debunking it widely happens at which point people pretend it was never a widely held belief. Obviously my point sounded wild and crazy to you for you to attempt a 'parody' version. Not a very rational or substantive response for an MBA, but oh well.

Because my parody post shows how ignorant you are about a general concept like FDIC and it's purpose.

Except that you showed nothing like that, you're wrong, and the fact you think it showed that only shows how clueless you are, for whatever reason.

What exactly did I get wrong on the FDIC, an FDR-era program following the bank crashes caused by frightened investors withdrawing their funds in a panic, designed to give them the feeling of safety needed to leave the funds in the banks and thereby prevent the financial institutions' crashes?

I guess you proved how I got it wrong; I look forward to your elucidation.

This has everything to do with firms leveraging capital and chasing the "profits" of subprime. Firms that turned their noses up at the allure of those profits are sitting pretty. Those who did not, as we can see, are getting chewed up and spit out.

Uh, ya, and my argument was clearly not a position I held, it was one I'm saying I see as quite possibly coming soon from misguided right-wingers. You did not understand that?

Then again, your level of social concern is reflected by the complete absence of any concern for those impacted or fixing the system, instead your comment in a later post only references glee that your own firm has made the choices needed to benefit from the problems. Congrats on your money, and not so much on your humanity and citizenship, IMO, if your posts here are an indication.

But you can serve a useful role for reminding others why we need power in the hands of others than the narrow interests, watching out for society's more general interest.

A power which the narrow interests - as they appear to have successfully done with the deregulation Engineer and LegendKiller mention - attempt to subvert.

You never answered his question???

Craig, what's your education and experience when it comes to finance and the markets? While you like to call me a "13 year old", I have a BS in Finance and an MBA, and I've been in insurance and financial services for 11 years.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: GrGr
Well tomorrow will be interesting with Lehman broke, Merrill Lynch in talks to be bought by Bank of America, AIG and Washington Mutual going broke etc and so on...

Just announced...Merrill Lynch is no longer a public company. Special on CNBC right now. Fed, as reported by AP, sitting on the current rate with no cuts (stagflation kicking their ass). Might....just might be the worst financial mess in decades. Dow futures down over 250 points right now.

Don't you understand, the invisible hand of the market will prevent any problems, businesses will act in the interest of keeping everything working fine, and the government has no role to play in any regulation, its well-intended but misguided efforts only cause the crashes, and if you disagree, you love communism?

Or, the market sells the public on false views to get them the room for schemes, and when they crash, the public is left with a big 'you shoulda known better'.

Many well intended businesses are forced by the competitve pressures by others to either take part in the schemes, or they are run out of business.

Maybe that's it, not the corporatist propaganda explanation. Of course, it doesn't necessarily lead to a crash; it might just be to poverty for the masses.

Anyone here who has not yet watched The Corporation (Part 1, Part 2

You do understand we wouldn't be in any of this mess now if it weren't for Fannie and Freddie's preferential lending status thanks to the government's interest in increasing home ownership among certain minorities? And its not like they cared, they just make money on the revenue, all they have to do is package it and sell the risk off to the market.

Get the government out of the equation (no preferential lending to increase homeownership among certain minorities) and we wouldn't have had any of these problems.

You do understand the more you talk, the more and more people like me you inform about the sheer idiocy of the left?

edit: Looks like the guy above me ^ beat me to the punch, lol.
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
269
0
0
Going back to my finance days, isn't the main benefit of the Feds is that they provide liquidity to the financial market? And that all of the developed nations have Central Banks to manage inflation & the money supply? I.e. it's better to have them than not, even when they make poor decisions.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In general, this is nothing more than wealth redistribution, with the wrong people losing.

Exactly. This whole thing is like watching a robbery in slow motion... and right on the front pages.

And yet you two will carry on about how this is "necessary."

Do either of you two have any other ideas that would presumably solve this problem?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In general, this is nothing more than wealth redistribution, with the wrong people losing.

Exactly. This whole thing is like watching a robbery in slow motion... and right on the front pages.

And yet you two will carry on about how this is "necessary."

Do either of you two have any other ideas that would presumably solve this problem?

personally, I think I am about to be proven right.

Considering that 20K+ people just lost their jobs at Lehman. A few other thousands at Merrill. Who knows how many more at WaMu, AIG, and others.

But hey, the cost of bailing out the system is a lot more than millions losing their jobs.

Of interesting note, the overnight ABCP market skyrocketed 2% last night. That is a direct cost to more than $700BN of outstanding ABS bonds.

But hey, nobody in this market needs liquidity. Fuck 'em all, every company needs to burn.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Craig, what's your education and experience when it comes to finance and the markets? While you like to call me a "13 year old", I have a BS in Finance and an MBA, and I've been in insurance and financial services for 11 years.[/b]

There were a number of posts responding to his post. Read them.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: GrGr
Well tomorrow will be interesting with Lehman broke, Merrill Lynch in talks to be bought by Bank of America, AIG and Washington Mutual going broke etc and so on...

Just announced...Merrill Lynch is no longer a public company. Special on CNBC right now. Fed, as reported by AP, sitting on the current rate with no cuts (stagflation kicking their ass). Might....just might be the worst financial mess in decades. Dow futures down over 250 points right now.

Don't you understand, the invisible hand of the market will prevent any problems, businesses will act in the interest of keeping everything working fine, and the government has no role to play in any regulation, its well-intended but misguided efforts only cause the crashes, and if you disagree, you love communism?

Or, the market sells the public on false views to get them the room for schemes, and when they crash, the public is left with a big 'you shoulda known better'.

Many well intended businesses are forced by the competitve pressures by others to either take part in the schemes, or they are run out of business.

Maybe that's it, not the corporatist propaganda explanation. Of course, it doesn't necessarily lead to a crash; it might just be to poverty for the masses.

Anyone here who has not yet watched The Corporation (Part 1, Part 2

You do understand we wouldn't be in any of this mess now if it weren't for Fannie and Freddie's preferential lending status thanks to the government's interest in increasing home ownership among certain minorities? And its not like they cared, they just make money on the revenue, all they have to do is package it and sell the risk off to the market.

Get the government out of the equation (no preferential lending to increase homeownership among certain minorities) and we wouldn't have had any of these problems.

You do understand the more you talk, the more and more people like me you inform about the sheer idiocy of the left?

edit: Looks like the guy above me ^ beat me to the punch, lol.

No, what I see is you having a little bit of info and not having a clue how little informed you are. That's typically how the classic ignoramus works, a little info (hence 'is dangerous').

I've already addressed that if you coudl read, but your saying that the programs for helping mnorities are the entire cause of problems, that we wouldn't have any issues but for 'government interference', only shows how much you have drunk the kool aid, to use a tiny bit of facts to justify an ideologically driven viewpoint.

And oh by the way, those government programs to help the minorities do good, both in terms of our society's justice and for the economy, ultimately - though the tone of your post suggests you don't give a crap aboutt the former, and you don't have much clue on the latter.

Of course the companies 'don't care', that's why incentives are set up the way they are, to reward desired behavior that the market doesn't otherwise reward enough.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Craig234
Where are the right-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are federal insurance like FDIC that make borrowers less wary and encourage excessive risk?

If we just get rid of consumer protection like that, then the risk will properly keep businesses from overextending. It's all the Democrats' fault.
Where are all the left-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are the free market? That if we socialized all lending institutations there would be no need for profits?

If we just get rid of profits, then the businesses would keep from overextending. It's all the Republicans fault.

Well, Lyndon Johnson sold off Fannie Mae to pay for the Vietnam war, thus forcing taxpayers to buy it back at 100x the cost 40 years down the line.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: DomS
So I say we're within 20 days of financial doomsday now.
If A.I.G. doesn't get a bailout, they have about 72 hours before they go belly up, and that will all but guarantee a 4 digit single-day decline in the DJIA.

They'll probably pull the plug on the market, like they did after 9/11, to prevent a widespread meltdown.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In general, this is nothing more than wealth redistribution, with the wrong people losing.

Exactly. This whole thing is like watching a robbery in slow motion... and right on the front pages.

And yet you two will carry on about how this is "necessary."

Do either of you two have any other ideas that would presumably solve this problem?

personally, I think I am about to be proven right.

Considering that 20K+ people just lost their jobs at Lehman. A few other thousands at Merrill. Who knows how many more at WaMu, AIG, and others.

But hey, the cost of bailing out the system is a lot more than millions losing their jobs.

Of interesting note, the overnight ABCP market skyrocketed 2% last night. That is a direct cost to more than $700BN of outstanding ABS bonds.

But hey, nobody in this market needs liquidity. Fuck 'em all, every company needs to burn.

Oh come on, that's like me mocking you with "oh I guess the USG should just bail out every bad business venture."

I don't think I've been one to repeat "let them burn" anyway.
 

HeXploiT

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2004
4,359
1
76
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Craig234
Where are the right-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are federal insurance like FDIC that make borrowers less wary and encourage excessive risk?

If we just get rid of consumer protection like that, then the risk will properly keep businesses from overextending. It's all the Democrats' fault.
Where are all the left-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are the free market? That if we socialized all lending institutations there would be no need for profits?

If we just get rid of profits, then the businesses would keep from overextending. It's all the Republicans fault.

Well, Lyndon Johnson sold off Fannie Mae to pay for the Vietnam war, thus forcing taxpayers to buy it back at 100x the cost 40 years down the line.

Never really thought of it like that before.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Craig234
Where are the right-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are federal insurance like FDIC that make borrowers less wary and encourage excessive risk?

If we just get rid of consumer protection like that, then the risk will properly keep businesses from overextending. It's all the Democrats' fault.
Where are all the left-wingers to say that the cause of the problems are the free market? That if we socialized all lending institutations there would be no need for profits?

If we just get rid of profits, then the businesses would keep from overextending. It's all the Republicans fault.

Well, Lyndon Johnson sold off Fannie Mae to pay for the Vietnam war, thus forcing taxpayers to buy it back at 100x the cost 40 years down the line.

So that it would have been better for the government not to privatize it, eh?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: DomS
down 260 today.....it's almost Doooooooooomsdaaaaaaay

Down 450 to finish the day. Ouch!

and no sign of Bush to say "Mission Accomplished".

Don't know. Here are the numbers from when Bush took office to now...

Today's close:

Dow 10,609.66

Nasdaq 2,098.85

S&P 500 1,156.39

Start of day on Jan 4th, 2001 (day Bush took office):

Dow 10,945.75

Nasdaq 2,616.69

S&P 500 1,347.56

Points lower since Bush took office...

Dow: 10,609.66 - 10,945.75 = - 336.09 = 3.07% lower

Nasdaq: 2098.85 - 2616.69 = -517.84 = 19.79% lower

S&P 500: 1156.39 - 1347.56 = -191.17 = 14.19% lower

I don't know if that's mission accomplised or not....but it's sure fucked up. Sits back and waits for someone to post "It's all Clinton's fault"....
 

DomS

Banned
Jul 15, 2008
1,678
0
0
FINANCIAL DOOOOMSDAY!!


Unfortunately I don't think that the election is going to come soon enough. Obama's probably going to get elected, and since the market is as psychological as it is financial there'll be a run then I'm sure. Unfortunately I'm thinking the dow will be below 8,000 by then.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: DomS
FINANCIAL DOOOOMSDAY!!


Unfortunately I don't think that the election is going to come soon enough. Obama's probably going to get elected, and since the market is as psychological as it is financial there'll be a run then I'm sure. Unfortunately I'm thinking the dow will be below 8,000 by then.

Meow.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Families bringing in 40K a year buying 200K+ homes.. everyone and their mother driving massive $40K+ SUV's.. people paying credit cards with credit cards... Banks giving crap loans and a useless war.. wow what a tough prediction. *YAWN*

Recession yes.. depression still possible but not probable.
 
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