Oil Analysis - Actions?

[Pacfanweb]

Hmmmm I take it you don't feel that it makes a difference what oil you use? And that oil analysis aren't useful for telling if there is an engine problem? Well to each their own, but I'm not one of the "car is an appliance" people, and I will spend the extra time and effort to make sure everything is as good as it can be- oil included.

Who has engine problems these days? Pretty much any engine will go 200k+ with proper maintenance.

If your oil analysis changed drastically from one report to the next, what would you do? Would you know? Could you do it? Do you know anyone who has gone in and say, replaced bearings because of what an oil analysis told him?

The point is, there is no point in oil analysis. If you have a high mileage engine, and even if you knew what was starting to come apart based on a report, you wouldn't go in the engine and replace anything. That's rarely done these days. Who would replace bearings on a 100k+ motor? Nobody does motor work anymore. It's all replacement now. Costs more to overhaul an engine (properly) than to just replace it with a reman or junkyard motor.

Nobody has bearing failure, ever. Bearings don't fail. Other things fail that might wipe the bearings, but when that happens, it's not likely to be caught by analysis.

It's a waste of money. Plain and simple. If you like doing it, I don't knock that at all, if it's "your thing", but don't tell me it's useful, because it's not. Simply use the recommended oil, change it when you're supposed to, use a factory filter, and that gives you the absolute best change of getting the most out of your particular engine.

edit: All this assumes a stock vehicle, not something with a built engine.

 

[KentState]

Who has engine problems these days? Pretty much any engine will go 200k+ with proper maintenance.

If your oil analysis changed drastically from one report to the next, what would you do? Would you know? Could you do it? Do you know anyone who has gone in and say, replaced bearings because of what an oil analysis told him?

The point is, there is no point in oil analysis. If you have a high mileage engine, and even if you knew what was starting to come apart based on a report, you wouldn't go in the engine and replace anything. That's rarely done these days. Who would replace bearings on a 100k+ motor? Nobody does motor work anymore. It's all replacement now. Costs more to overhaul an engine (properly) than to just replace it with a reman or junkyard motor.

Nobody has bearing failure, ever. Bearings don't fail. Other things fail that might wipe the bearings, but when that happens, it's not likely to be caught by analysis.

It's a waste of money. Plain and simple. If you like doing it, I don't knock that at all, if it's "your thing", but don't tell me it's useful, because it's not. Simply use the recommended oil, change it when you're supposed to, use a factory filter, and that gives you the absolute best change of getting the most out of your particular engine.

edit: All this assumes a stock vehicle, not something with a built engine.

I would say it also depends on how expensive the engine is stock and if there are known short comings. There are modern day mass production cars with engines that cost more than a Honda Civic. I know oil testing is popular in the LSx car based crowd, then again they are usually a little more hands on than the typical commuter.

 

[HarryLui]

I think checking the dip stick for oil level is more important than oil analysis.

I've seen engine with swipe out bearings, due to lack of oil in the engine. Usually 10000 miles + and with drivers never check the oil dip stick.

Saw a 11 CTS with 15000 miles on the clock. The engine is trashed because the rental company never did 1 oil change on it.

 

[Pacfanweb]

I would say it also depends on how expensive the engine is stock and if there are known short comings. There are modern day mass production cars with engines that cost more than a Honda Civic. I know oil testing is popular in the LSx car based crowd, then again they are usually a little more hands on than the typical commuter.

And for hot rods, analysis might be worth it sometimes, to prevent failure before it grenades. But for a stock car, it is utterly worthless. And it's even more worthless if you don't know how to read the analysis, which applies to nearly everyone that does it. If they did know, then the first thing they did wouldn't be to post it on their favorite forum to see what everyone else thought about it.

Even in a high dollar super car, it's still basically worthless, because if something IS going to break, it's not going to conveniently let you know by giving you a little extra copper in your analysis sample a week before it goes kaboom.

Nearly everything that people say analysis can help you find will have already given you other symptoms prior. Such as, antifreeze in the oil. Unless the antifreeze JUST started leaking into the oil (like via a head gasket), you will have already been having to add antifreeze, so you know it is losing coolant. Same with an injector that's leaking and letting fuel go past the rings, and nearly anything else.

Now this is assuming a mostly stock car that has analysis done when the oil is changed. When you're going 5k or more miles between analysis times, a lot can happen. Just call it what it is: A hobby.

 

[LTC8K6]

Also, if you do have an engine problem, how often is it related to the oil?

Never?

 

[NickR]

My cavalier had the oil pump fail on the highway, which destroyed the bottom end. That is entirely likely plausible to be oil related.

 

[Bartman39]

My cavalier had the oil pump fail on the highway, which destroyed the bottom end. That is entirely likely plausible to be oil related.

But an oil analysis would not have helped with this in any way...? They are more for indications of bearing failure or coolant contamination in diesel engines... I have a diesel truck and work for a company where I could at any time do oil analysis and have it next day if I wanted but see no real need (used to but really a waste so quit) ... As others have stated its more important to check the level and quite often if the engine has any history of use of oil or a leak...

In addition oil analysis is also mainly for warranty purposes... We sample at the 250 hour oil change interval and sample everything (engine oil, Hyd oil, swing gear oil, transmission oil, final drive(s) oil) at the 500 & 1000 hour intervals, also the latter all oils & filters are changed... This is required for the various types of warranties on equipment (basic, extended, premier)... As for doing it on an everyday driver (car or light truck) its more of waste and is kinda anal... (Just check it and change it properly)

 

[KentState]

Also, if you do have an engine problem, how often is it related to the oil?

Never?

Probably which is why it can be helpful. It really should be a tool to see if something is out of whack like a lot of metal shavings. For example, if 1,000 people have their LS7 tested at certain intervals, one should be able to compare their results and see if anything is out of line. However, I do agree with the general consensus that it provides very little value and most engine issues will manifest themselves in other ways that are more measurable. Engines throw codes for a lot more issues these days.

 

[LTC8K6]

My cavalier had the oil pump fail on the highway, which destroyed the bottom end. That is entirely likely plausible to be oil related.

There was nothing wrong with your oil, and nothing bad in your oil.

Not oil related at all, imo.

 

[MadAmos]

So should I be using a different brand?

I have had very good results using Mobil one. Here is a oil report that I had from just before I sold my 09 WRX.

 

[Pacfanweb]

My cavalier had the oil pump fail on the highway, which destroyed the bottom end. That is entirely likely plausible to be oil related.

Nope, not oil related. If you had a problem with your oil, you think the first thing to go is going to be the oil pump?

The only oil-related problems anyone ever has these days is from lack of changing it. Or using the wrong viscosity. It's just too good now.

As far as whether an analysis might have helped diagnose the pump failure....maybe, maybe not. If the failure was simply the shaft snapping, nothing would have told you that was going to happen. Maybe if the gears were going bad and putting some shavings into the oil, but even then you'd need to be pretty good with engines to have a clue what it was.

But by all means, don't let me keep anyone from wasting their own money, there are much worse things you can waste it on.

 

[Pacfanweb]

There was nothing wrong with your oil, and nothing bad in your oil.

Not oil related at all, imo.

Correct. Oil doesn't fail. Bearings don't fail. Pretty much, never. If either has a problem, it's just about 100% due to something else.

 

[BUTCH1]

Correct. Oil doesn't fail. Bearings don't fail. Pretty much, never. If either has a problem, it's just about 100% due to something else.

Bearings do fail but more than likely it's owner neglect and/or dogging it constantly (with old, crappy oil in it=bearing trouble)..

 

[thescreensavers]

It's a waste of money. Plain and simple.

Depends how you use it. Stock intervals your fine, no point really.

When buying a used car sure why not check if there is any coolant in the oil

Or

If you want to extend your intervals.


I did two when I bought my car and now when I extended it to 5k to see if the oil is able to last how I drive on it.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Bearings do fail but more than likely it's owner neglect and/or dogging it constantly (with old, crappy oil in it=bearing trouble)..

Right, but neglect and/or dogging it with old crappy oil in it doesn't count as bearing failure....the bearings are not what caused the failure, that's my point.

Bearings just simply do not fail, ever. I'd be willing to bet that nobody knows anyone who knows anyone who can show us a bearing failure where a bearing simply came apart while everything else in the motor was fine. There's always something else that made the bearing fail, and the bearing was just a symptom, not the cause.


BTW, Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[BUTCH1]

Right, but neglect and/or dogging it with old crappy oil in it doesn't count as bearing failure....the bearings are not what caused the failure, that's my point.

Bearings just simply do not fail, ever. I'd be willing to bet that nobody knows anyone who knows anyone who can show us a bearing failure where a bearing simply came apart while everything else in the motor was fine. There's always something else that made the bearing fail, and the bearing was just a symptom, not the cause.


BTW, Merry Christmas to everyone!

A bearing surface is considered a wear item, that's why they're replaceable. A 200K+ engine could have bearing issues but that's at the end of it's service life anyway. I was thinking of buying an old Cutlass once, took it for a test ride then to a mechanic for a once-over. With the car on a lift he could hear bearing slap with his stethoscopeon the oil pan, I brought the car back and passed..

 

[BUTCH1]

The "oil life monitors are bs" is bs. GMs OLM is actually very, very useful and accurate. They spend a lot of money developing it. It takes into account engine coolant and oil temperature, running time, RPM, an a ton of other variables. It uses a baseline oil spec, (Dexos 1 for new vehicles) to determine when the oil needs to be replaced. The OLM has proven itself to be very useful, and as long as you use a quality oil, accurate.

My GM has the same OLM, I've also read about how advanced the algorithm on it is and the many inputs it considers, just the same as a precaution I change it when it shows 25-30% life left but that probably just my paranoia more than common sense.

 

[Pacfanweb]

A bearing surface is considered a wear item, that's why they're replaceable. A 200K+ engine could have bearing issues but that's at the end of it's service life anyway. I was thinking of buying an old Cutlass once, took it for a test ride then to a mechanic for a once-over. With the car on a lift he could hear bearing slap with his stethoscopeon the oil pan, I brought the car back and passed..

Two things come to mind here:

One, you pretty much proved my point with the first part there, "at the end of its service life anyway" being the operative term. If an engine is near the end of its typical life, then yes, SOMETHING will eventually fail.

But people aren't doing oil analysis to determine if a 250k engine is worn out or not.

Two, the old Cutlass isn't an example of "bearings failing", because you really have no idea what caused them to slap. Lack of maintenance, excessive hard use, etc. Likely the cause.

As I mentioned, bearings ALONE, with everything else perfect in the motor and no other contributing factors, simply do. not. fail. prematurely. At 300k? Yeah, they might. But even worn bearings will keep right on going as long as the oil pump is still good and the engine isn't gummed up and oil is getting where it's supposed to. As long as the pump is strong enough to keep the crank and rods afloat, they can make noise and still go for awhile.

Here's some interesting reading from Nascar.com, but they copied straight from the Clevite site. (was easier to cut/paste since Clevite's site was a pdf)

The table to the right lists the eight major causes of premature engine bearing failure, along with percentage figures which indicate how often each has been found to be the prime contributor to a bearing's destruction. In many cases a premature bearing failure is due to a combination of several of these causes

Major Causes
Premature Bearing Failure

Cause Percent

Dirt 45.4
Misassembly 12.8
Misalignment 12.6
Insufficient Lubrication 11.4
Overloading 8.1
Corrosion 3.7
Improper Journal Finish 3.2
Other 2.8

So as we can see, bearings simply almost prematurely fail without help. Always something else that kills the bearing, not the bearing itself that kills the motor.

That's why I said what I did in response to whomever it was that was talking about using analysis to see if they were having a bearing go bad......it just doesn't happen without something MAKING them go bad, and you SHOULD, if you are maintaining it properly, know if you are subjecting the motor to these conditions.

 

[thescreensavers]

^ How does dirt get its way into the bearings?

 

[Bartman39]

Pretty simple the "dirt" as said is from combustion blowby particles (carbon) that is suspended in the oil... Even with unleaded fuel or ultra low sulfur in diesel like we have these days its still a dirty burn no matter how you do it... The particles come from blowing by the rings and pistons and becomes suspended in the oil and as it circulates it of course makes it way to the bearings where it over time scuffs off the thin outer bearing layer and makes it way to the middle and base layers which = failure...


All of this can be seen with an oil analysis (the dirt & various metals and levels thereof)...

 

[kornphlake]

Just my opinion, but let's say the oil analyasis does suggest you have a problem, are you going to tear down the entire engine, inspect every part and replace every part with visible or measurable wear? Most reasonable people would keep driving until symptoms exist that can be measured in other ways, then replace only the parts that need to be replaced, which may not include several worn parts, at which point the oil analysis didn't really serve any purpose. I won't say oil analysis isn't useful, but I think the results more often than not lead to paranoia. If your vehicle is prone to a problem and it's known that an oil analysis can diagnose the problem before it becomes catastrophic (unlikely,) I could see some value in doing an analysis, otherwise I'd just change the oil and filter as recommended by the manufacturer.

 

[RPD]

Pretty sure I am just going to just clean the air filter and send in another sample at 5k miles. If that shows great improvements I probably won't use the analysis again for a long time.