Oklahoma and Sharia

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Interesting quote at #146 PJABBER. As someone who grew up Protestant I had no idea Martin Luther entertained such wackjob ideas as the imminent apocalypse. I guess the Protestants do as good a job as any other religion in whitewashing what isn't convenient.
Martin Luther was indeed a whackjob by today's standards, including such behaviors as smearing his own feces on church doors and throwing it at corrupt priests. However he also took on corruption at a time when it was rampant within the Church, leading not only to the Protestant movement but also to the Catholic Church reforming, cleaning up a lot of the worst corruption. Like most such pivotal societal figures, he was neither purely good nor completely crazy, but he accomplished a lot of good and left the world a better place. And of course, the Jews have always been Europe's whipping boy, as far as I can tell for no good reason.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
That is pretty ridiculous. How many fundamentalists believe that the Bible takes precedence over the Constitution? I dare say all, or pretty close to all, of them yet our constitutional government has stood up pretty well.

These Christian fundamentalists, nutty as they are, are not seeking to replace federal and state law with an entirely separate legal system. They are not also saying that one legal system should apply to one group while a different one applies to a different group.

The basic problem is a most Americans have no real life contact with any Muslims and they have been led to believe by TV alarmists that all Muslims are radical, OBL types who want to return the world to some sort of Middle Ages paradise. That is not true. The fact of the matter is Judiasm, Christianity and Isalm are all closely related religions. We even revere the same ten commandments, the same early religious prophets-Moses, for example. In Islam Jesus is viewed as a respected prophet/teacher.

This isn't relevant to the issue at hand, which is that some Muslims are advocating an entirely different legal system that should apply to Muslims (or Muslim communities) within the US. It doesn't matter how closely Islam is related to any other religion; what matters is that the United States is a secular country and should remain so.

I still say this feverent anti-Sharia law campaign is a cynical political ploy, a solution to a nonexistent problem-and if the problem ever does arise, one that can be easily handled by our current constitutional and legal system.

The anti-Sharia law campaign may well be a ploy by some to gain votes or whatnot. However, if a sitting judge refers to Sharia in making a legal decision that affects real people, it's a problem. If there is a tangible and serious effort to adopt a parallel legal system of Sharia for Islamic communities within the US, it's a problem. A real one that does exist, and has real consequences.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Kadarin: you are a complete idiot. There is simply no other way to look at it.

Instead of being the simpleton who's only capable of attacking the messenger, why not compose an intelligent response and explain to me why you believe I'm wrong?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Instead of being the simpleton who's only capable of attacking the messenger, why not compose an intelligent response and explain to me why you believe I'm wrong?

Because no intelligent response could show why you are wrong, only why you are right.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
may I also ask members supporting this ban to please inform me of the reasons behind opposing Sharia Law? I may be able to address some of their concerns. If you could list out what you dislike about Sharia Law in points, I would be grateful.

Because Sharia law has not been passed by the Legislature and signed into US Law by the Executive branch(or a supermajority vote to override a veto) nor is it listed in the US Constitution.

May I ask you why Sharia law does not incorporate US law? I assume it is for the same basic reason I listed above but I figured I would ask.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Because Sharia law has not been passed by the Legislature and signed into US Law by the Executive branch(or a supermajority vote to override a veto) nor is it listed in the US Constitution.

May I ask you why Sharia law does not incorporate US law? I assume it is for the same basic reason I listed above but I figured I would ask.
Sharia does not incorporate US law because, coming from Muhammed*, Sharia is already perfect and only those who don't understand it oppose it. Therefore imposing Sharia is only for the good of these ignorant people.

* We know everything Muhammed did is perfection, because G-d allows only the most perfect of men to nail nine year-olds. QED, dude.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Because Sharia law has not been passed by the Legislature and signed into US Law by the Executive branch(or a supermajority vote to override a veto) nor is it listed in the US Constitution.

May I ask you why Sharia law does not incorporate US law? I assume it is for the same basic reason I listed above but I figured I would ask.

And nor is it subject to interpretation by duly appointed members of the US Supreme Court.
 

D1gger

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,411
2
76
Here are a few problems I have with Sharia law:

The actual law
The best to learn about Sharia law is to examine the actual laws. The best source is Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, by Amana Publications, 1994. The Sharia is organized in an outline form and each case quoted below will be referenced by the index number


Imitating the kafir
Even if the kafir has a better way, a Muslim should not imitate it.
e4.1 It is kufr (unbelief) to turn from the Sunna to imitate the kafir, when one believes that the kafir way is superior to the Sunna.

Forced marriage
A woman may be forced to marry a person whom she does not want.
m3.13 … Whenever the bride is a virgin, the father or the father’s father may marry her without her permission, though it is recommended to ask her permission if she has reached puberty. A virgin’s silence is considered as consent.

Forced sex
The wife must have sex whenever her husband demands it.
m5.1 It is obligatory for a woman to let her husband have sex with her immediately when:
(a) He asks her;
(b) At home;
(c) She can physically endure it.

Wife Beating
The Koran says that a wife can be beaten. Mohammed recommended wife beating in his last sermon at Mecca. Here is the Sharia:
DEALING WITH A REBELLIOUS WIFE
m10.12 When a husband notices signs of rebelliousness in his wife whether in words as when she answers him coldly when she used to do so politely. or he asks her to come to bed and she refuses, contrary to her usual habit; or whether in acts, as when he finds her averse to him when she was previously kind and cheerful), he warns her in words without keeping from her or hitting her, for it may be that she has an excuse

http://westernfrontamerica.com/2009/03/04/short-overview-sharia-law/
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
So after seven pages of "discussion", I'm still unclear on the basic premise of this topic. Except for pundits trying to scare idiots, and politicians trying to get votes from the same idiots, is this even a problem that remotely needs addressing? Religious law of any type is fundamentally outlawed in the very 1st amendment to the US constitution, period.

I don't mean that opposing Sharia law is bad. As a staunch agnostic, I believe religion should begin and end within your own head. Any attempt to oppose your beliefs on me or anyone else is totally unacceptable, WHATEVER those beliefs might be. But lucky for me I live in America, where we have ample protections against religious assholes trying to make us all listen to their God. So I have a hard time understanding the epic angst over Sharia, when Christians (the vast majority of this country) have to fight tooth and nail to even keep things like "In God We Trust" on the money. Is ANYONE honestly thinking Sharia law stands a chance?

Honestly, I think this is blatant manipulation of easily manipulated (ie, stupid) voters. A politician or pundit can drum up a lot of support pretending to protect idiots from the threat of the day, whether or not said "threat" is actually a problem.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
So after seven pages of "discussion", I'm still unclear on the basic premise of this topic. Except for pundits trying to scare idiots, and politicians trying to get votes from the same idiots, is this even a problem that remotely needs addressing? Religious law of any type is fundamentally outlawed in the very 1st amendment to the US constitution, period.

I don't mean that opposing Sharia law is bad. As a staunch agnostic, I believe religion should begin and end within your own head. Any attempt to oppose your beliefs on me or anyone else is totally unacceptable, WHATEVER those beliefs might be. But lucky for me I live in America, where we have ample protections against religious assholes trying to make us all listen to their God. So I have a hard time understanding the epic angst over Sharia, when Christians (the vast majority of this country) have to fight tooth and nail to even keep things like "In God We Trust" on the money. Is ANYONE honestly thinking Sharia law stands a chance?

Honestly, I think this is blatant manipulation of easily manipulated (ie, stupid) voters. A politician or pundit can drum up a lot of support pretending to protect idiots from the threat of the day, whether or not said "threat" is actually a problem.

So a wife being denied a protective order against a serial rapist and wife beater by a New Jersey state court on the grounds that he is within his rights under Sharia is okay? I guess she should just hide until her lawyer can win on appeal then. No biggy.

I bet she would have liked a New Jersey law prohibiting the family court judge from denying her a protective order because her husband owns her under Sharia. But maybe like myself she's merely "easily manipulated".
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
So a wife being denied a protective order against a serial rapist and wife beater by a New Jersey state court on the grounds that he is within his rights under Sharia is okay? I guess she should just hide until her lawyer can win on appeal then. No biggy.

I bet she would have liked a New Jersey law prohibiting the family court judge from denying her a protective order because her husband owns her under Sharia. But maybe like myself she's merely "easily manipulated".

Yeah, how about a link to that case...I find you summary highly suspect. In any case, if the 1st amendment isn't enough to prevent the judge from being an idiot, what else is going to help?

If you read my post, which you obviously didn't, I said I'm exceptionally opposed to Sharia law, on the grounds that religious law is retarded no matter what the religion. On the other hand, since the first amendment prevents the government from making decisions based on religion, any additional laws are totally meaningless and almost certainly intended to pander to idiots.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
Yeah, how about a link to that case...I find you summary highly suspect. In any case, if the 1st amendment isn't enough to prevent the judge from being an idiot, what else is going to help?


The original verdict was overturned during Appellate review. But the fact that a judge ever ruled that way in the first place was the reason for this bit of legislature. YES, the legislation is Fear mongering. But there was a reason why it was written.
 
Last edited:

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
So after seven pages of "discussion", I'm still unclear on the basic premise of this topic. Except for pundits trying to scare idiots, and politicians trying to get votes from the same idiots, is this even a problem that remotely needs addressing? Religious law of any type is fundamentally outlawed in the very 1st amendment to the US constitution, period.

Nope, you are right. This is just for the idiots out there to shout "USA" some more and scare people about those evil muslims (that are all terrorists, don't you know). Good to see so many posters here that have fallen for this, hook, line and sinker.


Honestly, I think this is blatant manipulation of easily manipulated (ie, stupid) voters. A politician or pundit can drum up a lot of support pretending to protect idiots from the threat of the day, whether or not said "threat" is actually a problem.

Again,.as noted by all the partisan posters here, they all have bought into it, and have no wish to decide anything based on things like "facts". They "know" they are right, so any proof is immediately dismissed as nonsense.

See this for proof as how people won't change their minds even when presented with factual evidence contrary to their position.

Republicans know this, and have been exploiting this for 8 years now. And now the Dem's are trying to catch up as well, so both parties are in a race to the bottom of the barrel.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
The original verdict was overturned during Appellate review. But the fact that a judge ever ruled that way in the first place was the reason for this bit of legislature. YES, the legislation is Fear mongering. But there was a reason why it was written.

Except that the judge did NOT rule that way based on Sharia Law. It was a (mistaken) attempt to determine intent based on religious belief. This case may be an excuse for the legislation, but it in no way addresses the problem of the case (stupid judge was stupid), and even if it did, we already have plenty of legal protection against "Sharia Law".

Enacting an unnecessary "protection" against a threat that doesn't exist, based on an event that has been blown way out of proportion is exactly the kind of fear mongering I'm talking about.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Nope, you are right. This is just for the idiots out there to shout "USA" some more and scare people about those evil muslims (that are all terrorists, don't you know). Good to see so many posters here that have fallen for this, hook, line and sinker.




Again,.as noted by all the partisan posters here, they all have bought into it, and have no wish to decide anything based on things like "facts". They "know" they are right, so any proof is immediately dismissed as nonsense.

See this for proof as how people won't change their minds even when presented with factual evidence contrary to their position.

Republicans know this, and have been exploiting this for 8 years now. And now the Dem's are trying to catch up as well, so both parties are in a race to the bottom of the barrel.

Ever since the "southern strategy", it seems like a large part of Republican electoral strategy consists of claiming to protect their supporters from the hordes of whoever threatening them. In the absence of actual hordes, we get promised protection against really questionable threats like monogamous gays and Muslims.

What's interesting about Muslims is that the fight against them started out as opposition to terrorism, with people like GWB being very careful to make the distinction. But now that terrorism has lost its threatening power, the focus has shifted to Muslims in general.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Ever since the "southern strategy", it seems like a large part of Republican electoral strategy consists of claiming to protect their supporters from the hordes of whoever threatening them. In the absence of actual hordes, we get promised protection against really questionable threats like monogamous gays and Muslims.

What's interesting about Muslims is that the fight against them started out as opposition to terrorism, with people like GWB being very careful to make the distinction. But now that terrorism has lost its threatening power, the focus has shifted to Muslims in general.

Legitimate issues for politicians to campaign on are:

- What are their spending priorities, how much do they want to spend on what?
- Where do they want to cut, how much?
- What new programs or policies do they support?

But political campaigns are almost never run on these issues. They may have some position papers 'available' for those few interested, heavily filtered by what helps get votes.

And why is this? It's voters' fault, in a way. Voters yawn and don't vote on those 'legitimate' issues.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's take a group of voters who are largely racists - think a lot of people in the 60's.

Now, politicians have a choice: 'stand up for right even when it's politically costly', or 'pander to the racists and exploit the issue for political gain'.

We'd all like to say we only support the former, as if that gets rid of the latter. It doesn't.

And all the 'racist' side of that issue has to do is be 'better' to the racists than the 'anti-racist' side.

So if the civil rights side wants to stick its neck out and really try to do something about racism 'because it's the right thing to do', all the racist side has to do is not do anything racist, but just promise the racist voters 'WE won't call you racist' to get their votes. And if the anti-racist side moved toward the middle, backing off its efforts, the racist side just stays ahead of them, always enough to get the racist vote, but no need to actually do much racist.

If the anti-racist side drops the issue altogther, the racist side can actively pledge to fight to prevent any such effort, still getting that vote.

It's all too effective - with whatever 'demon' in public opinion can be exploited - blacks, gays, commies, anything the public can be 'protected' from.

Indeed, they have been so good at it they demonized the whole side without any specifics - things like the Willie Horton ad were so politically risky to exploit race on, it's a lot easier to just get to demonize 'the far left' without anything specific, just as some crazy group who would destroy America. And you do love America and want to protect her from those crazies right?

It's so effective that it took years and years of terrible, harfmful policies to get the public to say 'enough is enough' and vote for the other side - a revolt that lasted 2 years.

If *voters* responded to the 'legitimate issues' instead of being so easily manipulated by people who run on these 'threats' like 'defense of marriage from gays', they'd get better government. How bad and corrupt an agenda can a politician have against the public interest, when most of what he talks about are things like 'protect marriage' and 'the other side is weak on protection from terrorists'? His corrupt agenda is ignored, while voters say 'I'm voting for him, not the terrorist friendly guy'.

It's not easy to rebut the attacks - they can say 'that's ridiculous', but voters who fall for it say 'of course he denies it, he would wouldn't he? You can't believe a word he says'.

Much of this is very scientifically done - focus group-tested phrases and themese honed by marketing people who find just the right nutty issue that pushes voters' buttons, and then spread by media-savvy people - with the right-wing side a huge machine at getting 'its message out'. Far more people know the 'Gore lied that he invented the internet' than say 'that was a lie', much less 'the corrupt interests had a huge machine that spread that lie very effectively, taking away Gore's deserved benefit for his leadership in being the top politician in supporting the funding of the development of the internet, which is just the sort of leadership we need'. They took an issue that should get him a ton of votes and turned it into an issue that lost him votes over a lie.

The thing is, it's a circular pattern - and a chicken and egg question about who started it. Did campaigners first ignore legitimate issues and get voters ignoring them, or did voters first not care about legitimate issues and get campaigners to pander to the bad ones - but it doesn't much matter, the result is a cycle of campaigns about phony issues and voters who vote based on them each pushing the other to continue the cycle.

As long as voters reward the behavior, campaigners who have the job to get people elected are not going to swim upriver against it.

So what would help? I'd like to say 'a good politician who points out the problem and gets voters to pay attention to the legitimate issues', but looking at a century of campaigns, I see that happening about zero. The only time it seems to happen much isn't based on the candidate making it work, but accidents, like McKinley's assassination putting Teddy Roosevelt in office, the great depression and FDR's license for change, or Watergate and Carter.

Is it any wonder politicians and their campaign teams are sick of this issue, voters who whine about the campaigns, but who also vote only based on the phony issues?

How much time are they expected to waste on this issue when the only choices are 'run on legitimate issues and get no votes' or 'run the phony campaign issues' and get votes?

Making it even worse is when the role of money is allowed to dominate, drowning out whatever people try to do something about this, allowing the phony issues to use 'the big lie' to be pushed in the slickest ads, played a thousand times for every one time any 'normal citizen' gets played.

The monied interests are happy with the issue, as it plays into their hands for money to dominate elections - they have no interest in 'legitimate issues' getting more attention.

"Legitimate issues" would expose the corruption of the special interests, who are the ones who really benefiit from having 'their people' able to win on fear of blacks/gays/Muslims.

Save234
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |