Oklahoma and Sharia

[PJABBER]

hi. you're mistakenly thinking I am arguing with you. I am not confusing you. even other members saw through you and suggested you were indulging in gish gallop http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gish_gallop

That someone else is incapable of addressing my points and prefers rather to indulge in name calling does not excuse you to do the same! :awe:

C'mon, routan, you have an agenda here. You claim to want to explain and defend Islam but you have done a piss poor job of it.

Most of the faithful I know take pride in having memorized large portions of the Koran, yet you have never referred to a single quotation in your "defense." Why is that? I don't expect you to be a theologian, maybe you are just a casual observant, but you must have some background in what you profess to believe. At least enough to make an attempt at a rational discussion?

All you have to do is take a single post and address the substance of the references, the statements being made by the dozens of imams that are quoted in the case of my own posts, as they reflect modern Islamic thought.

Is that really so hard to do?

 

[routan]

That someone else is incapable of addressing my points and prefers rather to indulge in name calling does not excuse you to do the same! :awe:

C'mon, routan, you have an agenda here. You claim to want to explain and defend Islam but you have done a piss poor job of it.

Most of the faithful I know take pride in having memorized large portions of the Koran, yet you have never referred to a single quotation in your "defense." Why is that? I don't expect you to be a theologian, maybe you are just a casual observant, but you must have some background in what you profess to believe. At least enough to make an attempt at a rational discussion?

All you have to do is take a single post and address the substance of the references, the statements being made by the dozens of imams that are quoted in the case of my own posts, as they reflect modern Islamic thought.

Is that really so hard to do?

on the contrary, the posters who suggested you indulging in gish gallop was referring to your ridiculous copy pastes from websites as questions to me.

I am repeating this again

please feel free to continue. as before stated, your intention has never been or is to participate in a discussion. your only aim is to present your point of view and construe questions in the manner that would serve that end.

earlier I had indulged you and your questions. yet you kept on repeating the same things, over, and over, and over. so whatever "challenges" you put worth cant possibly be addressed in any rational manner.

 

[PJABBER]

on the contrary, the posters who suggested you indulging in gish gallop was referring to your ridiculous copy pastes from websites as questions to me.

I am repeating this again

I am not asking questions of you. I don't see you as being particularly expert in Islam.

I am repeating this again.

please feel free to continue. as before stated, your intention has never been or is to participate in a discussion. your only aim is to present your point of view and construe questions in the manner that would serve that end.

You have ignored all substantive questions and comments and have resorted to juvenile name calling.

You are now a fully fledged member of ATP&N.

Congratulations! :awe:

earlier I had indulged you and your questions. yet you kept on repeating the same things, over, and over, and over. so whatever "challenges" you put worth cant possibly be addressed in any rational manner.

Do you happen to have a link to that?

 

[werepossum]

hi. so as a side discussion, do you believe the United States did not fund the Afghans and OBL and the Taliban against the Soviets? And that the United States does not support dictators across the Middle East?

if you do believe that, then I think you are need for serious mental reform.

if you dont believe that, then you and Faisal Rauf are on the same page.

So helping someone achieve their own freedom somehow justifies them attacking you in turn? That must be a Muslim thing, 'cause it makes no sense at all. And yes, the USA supports dictators where it is our perceived interests. Note that the Islamicists are not attempting to throw off dictators, merely to establish theological Islamic dictators over even more people. And rest assured that I will never again support any help to any Muslim nation occupied by any non-Muslim nation. Fuck 'em all, the farther under someone else's boot they are, the safer the world.

W's admin certainly thought he was an OK guy considering they trotted him out as a PR stunt with Karen Hughes and used him with the FBI in helping investigations. Don't let that get in the way of your talking points though.

As Bush refused to vet his PR stunts with me, I am under no compulsion to support them. But thanks for playing.

 

[routan]

So helping someone achieve their own freedom somehow justifies them attacking you in turn? That must be a Muslim thing, 'cause it makes no sense at all. And yes, the USA supports dictators where it is our perceived interests. Note that the Islamicists are not attempting to throw off dictators, merely to establish theological Islamic dictators over even more people. And rest assured that I will never again support any help to any Muslim nation occupied by any non-Muslim nation. Fuck 'em all, the farther under someone else's boot they are, the safer the world.

erm. absolutely not. but since you and i both agree that we helped those who attacked us, and also dictators where it is our perceived interest, i guess you are in agreement with Faisal Rauf.

 

[routan]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30743581&postcount=128

I never claimed to be an expert. in anything at all

I didnt call you any names. any names at all

You can do your 20 minutes research

Thanks for posting. Again.

 

[werepossum]

erm. absolutely not. but since you and i both agree that we helped those who attacked us, and also dictators where it is our perceived interest, i guess you are in agreement with Faisal Rauf.

By your "logic" if I give a bum five bucks and he then comes to my house and robs me, I am an accessory in that robbery. Somehow I doubt you'd hold to that twisted logic unless the bum happens to be Muslim, the ultimate get-out-of-jail card with a free gallon jug of potion that does anything I want.

 

[PJABBER]

I never claimed to be an expert. in anything at all

I thought you claimed to be a Muslim and a follower of Feisal Rauf when you first started posting. Didn't you offer to answer questions about Islam and to proffer a Muslim's opinion?

I is disappoint. Again.

Thanks for posting. Again.

I know you are a fan! :awe:

 

[routan]

By your "logic" if I give a bum five bucks and he then comes to my house and robs me, I am an accessory in that robbery. Somehow I doubt you'd hold to that twisted logic unless the bum happens to be Muslim, the ultimate get-out-of-jail card with a free gallon jug of potion that does anything I want.

hi. actually, thats not "my" logic, its yours. My "logic" is that if a bum wants to buy a knife to go rob your neighbor, you give it to him the 5 bucks, and after the bum robs the neighbor, he robs you too, you are certainly an accessory

 

[routan]

I thought you claimed to be a Muslim and a follower of Feisal Rauf when you first started posting. Didn't you offer to answer questions about Islam and to proffer a Muslim's opinion?

I is disappoint. Again.



I know you are a fan! :awe:

hi. I dont claim to be a Muslim. I am a Muslim. I dont follow Faisal Rauf. He is simply an Imam. I follow the tenets of the Quran and Sunnah. I can answer questions about Islam and offer a Muslim opinion. And I agreed with you that I do not claim to be an expert in Islam when you stated that you dont see me as an expert.

 

[werepossum]

hi. actually, thats not "my" logic, its yours. My "logic" is that if a bum wants to buy a knife to go rob your neighbor, you give it to him the 5 bucks, and after the bum robs the neighbor, he robs you too, you are certainly an accessory

Except the man who wanted the knife was the homeowner, who wanted to throw the bum out of his own house. At least by Western standards, that's a good deed. Just goes to show you can't help Muslims. Denmark and the Netherlands still appreciate the USA. France and Belgium at least don't attack us. Afghanistan? If you aren't Muslim, you're the enemy. And if there aren't any non-Muslims handy, then the "wrong" Muslims will be attacked.

Hopefully in the future we'll have learned our lesson so that the next time an Islamic nation is overrun by a neighbor, we simply say good riddance. And when the next Islamic nation attacks us, maybe we'll just bomb them back to the seventh century they love so much and not try to actually make a modern nation out them afterward. We have to stop judging Muslim nations by Western (and twenty-first century) nations' standards.

 

[Jaskalas]

Hopefully in the future we'll have learned our lesson so that the next time an Islamic nation is overrun by a neighbor, we simply say good riddance. And when the next Islamic nation attacks us, maybe we'll just bomb them back to the seventh century they love so much and not try to actually make a modern nation out them afterward. We have to stop judging Muslim nations by Western (and twenty-first century) nations' standards.

Were you speaking of the Middle East, or of Oklahoma? :hmm:

 

[ElFenix]

hi. so as a side discussion, do you believe the United States did not fund the Afghans and OBL and the Taliban against the Soviets? And that the United States does not support dictators across the Middle East?

if you do believe that, then I think you are need for serious mental reform.

if you dont believe that, then you and Faisal Rauf are on the same page.

iirc, the taliban didn't exist until after the soviets left and US funding stopped. seems to have formed in 1994.

 

[routan]

Except the man who wanted the knife was the homeowner, who wanted to throw the bum out of his own house. At least by Western standards, that's a good deed. Just goes to show you can't help Muslims. Denmark and the Netherlands still appreciate the USA. France and Belgium at least don't attack us. Afghanistan? If you aren't Muslim, you're the enemy. And if there aren't any non-Muslims handy, then the "wrong" Muslims will be attacked.

Hopefully in the future we'll have learned our lesson so that the next time an Islamic nation is overrun by a neighbor, we simply say good riddance. And when the next Islamic nation attacks us, maybe we'll just bomb them back to the seventh century they love so much and not try to actually make a modern nation out them afterward. We have to stop judging Muslim nations by Western (and twenty-first century) nations' standards.

hi. you're indugling in complete spin, switching around your "bum" as fit. by what you're saying now, it is perfectly acceptable that Iran is aiding the Taliban or Iraqi militia (and doing a "good deed by Western standards"), and the Taliban is in the right to kill our soliders, as now we are the "bum" in their house(s). quite ridiculous, even by your standards.

you said earlier and I quote:

And yes, the USA supports dictators where it is our perceived interests.

to which I said:

but since you and i both agree that we helped those who attacked us, and also dictators where it is our perceived interest, i guess you are in agreement with Faisal Rauf

Now you can talk about your bum and your face all you wish. Faisal Rauf stated the fact that we supported Taliban (and arguably OBL) and they have in turn attacked us to support his claim and whatever you have said does not make his claim wrong. You have a set viewpoint and just want to argue despite obviously being wrong.

 

[routan]

iirc, the taliban didn't exist until after the soviets left and US funding stopped. seems to have formed in 1994.

hi. so just to be clear, you believe that in 1994, the Taliban dropped from the sky, in hordes, with weapons, well trained, and proceeded to wage battles to take over Afghanistan? really?

the members of Taliban did magically appear out of no where. their development was years in the making.

 

[Kadarin]

Routan: If you are a Muslim (American citizen or not) who believes that in the US the Quran takes precedence over the Constitution, and that you wish to impose some form of Sharia in the US on Muslims or even possibly non-Muslims, then you are an enemy to the American way of life. Period. There is simply no other way to look at it.

 

[routan]

Routan: If you are a Muslim (American citizen or not) who believes that in the US the Quran takes precedence over the Constitution, and that you wish to impose some form of Sharia in the US on Muslims or even possibly non-Muslims, then you are an enemy to the American way of life. Period. There is simply no other way to look at it.

Kadarin: you are a complete idiot. There is simply no other way to look at it.

 

[cumhail]

Hmmm...let's see, there was this dude named Martin Luther, who saw the Catholic Church for what it was and...guess what, he risked his life and gave the Church the finger and started the protestant movement.

Martin Luther, that beacon of tolerance and progress who wrote the following in a treatise he titled "On the Jews and their Lies?"

...They must assuredly be the base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth. If there were a single pious Jew among them who observed these, he would have to be heard; for God cannot let his saints pray in vain, as Scripture demonstrates by many examples. This is conclusive evidence that they cannot be pious Jews, but must be the multitude of the whoring and murderous people.

Such piety is, as already has been said, so concealed among them that they themselves also can know nothing of it. How then shall God know of it? For they are full of malice, greed, envy, hatred toward one another, pride, usury, conceit, and curses against us Gentiles. Therefore, a Jew would have to have very sharp eyes to recognize a pious Jew, to say nothing of the fact that they all should be God's people as they claim. For they surely hide their piety effectively under their manifest vices; and yet they all, without exception, claim to be Abraham's blood, the people of the circumcision and of Moses, that is, God's nation, compared with whom the Gentiles must surely be sheer stench...

and followed up, later in that same work, with the following advice on what to do with/to them:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Great example you chose there...

 

[routan]

Martin Luther, that beacon of tolerance and progress who wrote the following in a treatise he titled "On the Jews and their Lies?"


and followed up, later in that same work, with the following advice on what to do with/to them:

Great example you chose there...

LOL.

Let us forgive MLK for those utterances. He did achieve quite a bit for the United States. While those words are totally condemnable, i would hope they do not tarnish his reputation.

 

[Thump553]

Routan: If you are a Muslim (American citizen or not) who believes that in the US the Quran takes precedence over the Constitution, and that you wish to impose some form of Sharia in the US on Muslims or even possibly non-Muslims, then you are an enemy to the American way of life. Period. There is simply no other way to look at it.

That is pretty ridiculous. How many fundamentalists believe that the Bible takes precedence over the Constitution? I dare say all, or pretty close to all, of them yet our constitutional government has stood up pretty well.

The basic problem is a most Americans have no real life contact with any Muslims and they have been led to believe by TV alarmists that all Muslims are radical, OBL types who want to return the world to some sort of Middle Ages paradise. That is not true. The fact of the matter is Judiasm, Christianity and Isalm are all closely related religions. We even revere the same ten commandments, the same early religious prophets-Moses, for example. In Islam Jesus is viewed as a respected prophet/teacher.

I still say this feverent anti-Sharia law campaign is a cynical political ploy, a solution to a nonexistent problem-and if the problem ever does arise, one that can be easily handled by our current constitutional and legal system.

 

[PJABBER]

LOL.

Let us forgive MLK for those utterances. He did achieve quite a bit for the United States. While those words are totally condemnable, i would hope they do not tarnish his reputation.

Martin Luther is not Martin Luther King.

Those words did tarnish his reputation.

He also lived in interesting times.

(Further information: Islam and Protestantism)

At the time of the Marburg Colloquy, Suleiman the Magnificent was besieging Vienna with a vast Ottoman army.[150] Luther had argued against resisting the Turks in his 1518 Explanation of the Ninety-five Theses, provoking accusations of defeatism. He saw the Turks as a scourge sent to punish Christians by God, as agents of the Biblical apocalypse that would destroy the antichrist, whom Luther believed to be the papacy, and the Roman Church.[151] He consistently rejected the idea of a Holy War, "as though our people were an army of Christians against the Turks, who were enemies of Christ. This is absolutely contrary to Christ's doctrine and name".[152] On the other hand, in keeping with his doctrine of the two kingdoms, Luther did support non-religious war against the Turks.[153] In 1526, he argued in Whether Soldiers can be in a State of Grace that national defence is reason for a just war.[154] By 1529, in On War against the Turk, he was actively urging Emperor Charles V and the German people to fight a secular war against the Turks.[155] He made clear, however, that the spiritual war against an alien faith was separate, to be waged through prayer and repentance.[156] Around the time of the Siege of Vienna, Luther wrote a prayer for national deliverance from the Turks, asking God to "give to our emperor perpetual victory over our enemies".[157]

In 1542, Luther read a Latin translation of the Qur'an.[158] He went on to produce several critical pamphlets on the Islamic faith, which he called Mohammedanism or the Turk.[159] Though Luther saw the Muslim faith as a tool of the devil, he was indifferent to its practice: "Let the Turk believe and live as he will, just as one lets the papacy and other false Christians live."[160] He opposed banning the publication of the Qur'an, wanting it exposed to scrutiny.[161]

 

[Scotteq]

LOL.

Let us forgive MLK for those utterances. He did achieve quite a bit for the United States. While those words are totally condemnable, i would hope they do not tarnish his reputation.

Note for those of you who may be late to the conversation: "Martin Luther" was a German Priest and Theologist who (being Excommunicated in 1521) started the Protestant Reformation against the Catholic Church for a number of reasons, one being a rejection of the notion that freedom from God's punishment of your sins could be purchased with money.

Martin Luther King was a Minister, Activist, leader of the African American Civil Rights Movement, and one of the greatest orators in American history. Dr. King leveraged the non violent methods of The Mahatma Ghandi in a program of widespread Civil Disobedience, achieving a key victory with the signing of the American Civil Rights Act of 1964.


Cliff's Notes: Not the Same guy, and barely lived within five hundred years of each other.

 

[cumhail]

LOL.

Let us forgive MLK for those utterances. He did achieve quite a bit for the United States. While those words are totally condemnable, i would hope they do not tarnish his reputation.

routan... we're talking about Martin Luther, not about Martin Luther King.

 

[Thump553]

Interesting quote at #146 PJABBER. As someone who grew up Protestant I had no idea Martin Luther entertained such wackjob ideas as the imminent apocalypse. I guess the Protestants do as good a job as any other religion in whitewashing what isn't convenient.

 

[Siddhartha]

Get some lawyers and challenge the religious based laws in court.