Old Testiment and history

plastick

Golden Member
Sep 29, 2003
1,400
1
81
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Anyway I was wondering if there are any other historical documents that mention this event in Egyptian history. I mean, it sounds like such a huge event that someone else must have recorded it...
So if anyone is good at history and knows of anything, let me know.

I searched google but only found a bunch of retarted websites. seems they are multiplying faster these days.
 
Aug 16, 2001
22,505
4
81
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Anyway I was wondering if there are any other historical documents that mention this event in Egyptian history. I mean, it sounds like such a huge event that someone else must have recorded it...
So if anyone is good at history and knows of anything, let me know.

I searched google but only found a bunch of retarted websites. seems they are multiplying faster these days.

The reason you don't find anything about it is that it never happened.
 

plastick

Golden Member
Sep 29, 2003
1,400
1
81
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Anyway I was wondering if there are any other historical documents that mention this event in Egyptian history. I mean, it sounds like such a huge event that someone else must have recorded it...
So if anyone is good at history and knows of anything, let me know.

I searched google but only found a bunch of retarted websites. seems they are multiplying faster these days.

The reason you don't find anything about it is that it never happened.

Yeah I figured someone would say that. But I was just wondering if there was anything else at all in any other history texts or whatever.. Thanks though.
 

Kyteland

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 2002
5,747
1
81
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Anyway I was wondering if there are any other historical documents that mention this event in Egyptian history. I mean, it sounds like such a huge event that someone else must have recorded it...
So if anyone is good at history and knows of anything, let me know.

I searched google but only found a bunch of retarted websites. seems they are multiplying faster these days.
Take an archeology class that focuses on places and events from the Bible. I took this class in college (religious studies 105 at UIUC) and as a pretty anti-oranized religion type person found it facinating.

A lot of the Bible is revisionist history. A lot of the names and events happened but were distorted by the writers/editors throughout history. Maybe there was a great famine that is recorded in Egyptian history and that story was borrowed by the authors of the bible. It wouldn't be the first time that happened. Try reading the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation story) and comparing it to what you read in the bible.

Originally posted by: plastick
looks a little anti-christian?
:roll:

You'll find a lot of very objective material out there that doesn't conform to official cannon. That doesn't make it untrue or anti-christian. You need to have an open mind about these things. If you are unwilling to examine theories or facts that may be contrary to what you have been taught or believe than you have no business saying that you are trying to learn.
 

plastick

Golden Member
Sep 29, 2003
1,400
1
81
Yeah I understand all that type of stuff.. *sighs* I was just hoping to find something kinda confirming.
 

Greyd

Platinum Member
Dec 4, 2001
2,119
0
0
Again, people who haven't really studied Biblical archaeology/history shouldn't say too much about its reliability when it comes to its historical accuracy. From the little I've studied, the Bible has never been shown to be wrong when it comes to historical integrity. In actuality, the Old Testament has shown to be extremely accurate historically. There were people, names and places, that were never mentioned in secular sources, later to have been found existing after archaelogical excavation.

For example, critics attacked the Bible, because the ruler Belshazzar never existed in secular records only in the Bible. Arcaheological excavation found an inscription in UR which confrimed his existence.

In the mid 1900's, a internationally known and famous Hebrew rabbi/scholar, Dr. Nelson Glueck, used the Bible to discover something close to 2000 arachaelogical discoveries. All of which had never been found prior. (e.g. arachaelogical remains of King Solomon's reign,etc)

It is the rare occassion that you find competent, recognized secular scholars that disagree with Biblical accuracy when it comes to history.

Again the majority of my reading and studies has been little to date - but enough to see an overwhelming pattern to the positive affirmation of the accuracy and reliability of Biblical history.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
4
76
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Does anyone else find this disturbing? A God of love kills every first born in an entire country, something is very wrong with that account. Same applies to the account about Noah and the ark except for in that situation every human on the planet with the exception of Noah his family were killed. Then you have Job, Satan convinced God that he could make Job break his faith. In the end God allowed Satan to kill all of Job's children (I think he had 10 kids).


I was raised in a christian household so I'm very familiar with the bible, yet it makes no sense to me why a supposed God of love would cause or allow events like that to take place.

Anyone else every think about stuff like that?
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
4
76
Originally posted by: Kyteland
Originally posted by: plastick


You'll find a lot of very objective material out there that doesn't conform to official cannon. That doesn't make it untrue or anti-christian. You need to have an open mind about these things. If you are unwilling to examine theories or facts that may be contrary to what you have been taught or believe than you have no business saying that you are trying to learn.

Wow, excellent point. I've been trying to convince my wife of this same thing for the past 3 years now. Very well said.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,063
18,441
146
That the bible has factual and proven historical events as a background for it's central story makes it no more a true story than the movie Forrest Gump.
 

Greyd

Platinum Member
Dec 4, 2001
2,119
0
0
Originally posted by: Kyteland
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Anyway I was wondering if there are any other historical documents that mention this event in Egyptian history. I mean, it sounds like such a huge event that someone else must have recorded it...
So if anyone is good at history and knows of anything, let me know.

I searched google but only found a bunch of retarted websites. seems they are multiplying faster these days.
Take an archeology class that focuses on places and events from the Bible. I took this class in college (religious studies 105 at UIUC) and as a pretty anti-oranized religion type person found it facinating.

A lot of the Bible is revisionist history. A lot of the names and events happened but were distorted by the writers/editors throughout history. Maybe there was a great famine that is recorded in Egyptian history and that story was borrowed by the authors of the bible. It wouldn't be the first time that happened. Try reading the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation story) and comparing it to what you read in the bible.

Originally posted by: plastick
looks a little anti-christian?
:roll:

You'll find a lot of very objective material out there that doesn't conform to official cannon. That doesn't make it untrue or anti-christian. You need to have an open mind about these things. If you are unwilling to examine theories or facts that may be contrary to what you have been taught or believe than you have no business saying that you are trying to learn.

I took the very same class (RELST 105) at UIUC and found it to be one of the worst scholarly classes. Not only is the majority of the religious studies department extremely liberal when it comes to Christian theology/history but it is extremely biased and one-sided. That department is notorious for being anti Christian when it comes to what is considered "normal" mainstream conservative evangelical Christianity.

I remember when they brought in speakers for different faiths. The "Christian" speaker spoke nothing about the tenets of Christianity, but went off on tangents and spoke about really weird issues. Even fellow classmates who weren't Christian thought he was really weird. This is the type of person that the department felt was appropriate for representing the Christian faith.

In response to the whole revisionist theory - this has long been seen to be a VERY weak argument. There is very little legitmacy or strength in that argument.
 

plastick

Golden Member
Sep 29, 2003
1,400
1
81
Originally posted by: Greyd
Again, people who haven't really studied Biblical archaeology/history shouldn't say too much about its reliability when it comes to its historical accuracy. From the little I've studied, the Bible has never been shown to be wrong when it comes to historical integrity. In actuality, the Old Testament has shown to be extremely accurate historically. There were people, names and places, that were never mentioned in secular sources, later to have been found existing after archaelogical excavation.

For example, critics attacked the Bible, because the ruler Belshazzar never existed in secular records only in the Bible. Arcaheological excavation found an inscription in UR which confrimed his existence.

In the mid 1900's, a internationally known and famous Hebrew rabbi/scholar, Dr. Nelson Glueck, used the Bible to discover something close to 2000 arachaelogical discoveries. All of which had never been found prior. (e.g. arachaelogical remains of King Solomon's reign,etc)

It is the rare occassion that you find competent, recognized secular scholars that disagree with Biblical accuracy when it comes to history.

Again the majority of my reading and studies has been little to date - but enough to see an overwhelming pattern to the positive affirmation of the accuracy and reliability of Biblical history.


Hey thanks for the support.
 

Greyd

Platinum Member
Dec 4, 2001
2,119
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
That the bible has factual and proven hitorical events as a background for it's central story makes it no more a true story than the movie Forrest Gump.

I agree with the first part of your statement. Rarely is the Bible attacked on grounds of proof of the facts concerning historical events, places and people. In actuality, history and archaeology has shown that the Bible is one of the best documents out there.

Now, what you wanna do with that assertion/evidence is up to you. In the end, its a matter of Faith.
 

plastick

Golden Member
Sep 29, 2003
1,400
1
81
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Does anyone else find this disturbing? A God of love kills every first born in an entire country, something is very wrong with that account. Same applies to the account about Noah and the ark except for in that situation every human on the planet with the exception of Noah his family were killed. Then you have Job, Satan convinced God that he could make Job break his faith. In the end God allowed Satan to kill all of Job's children (I think he had 10 kids).

Anyone else every think about stuff like that?

I think of stuff like that all the time. But I have to realize that the words of the bible have a ture deeper meaning than can be seen if read properly.

Anyway I figure God killed all those people mainly because they were already super deep in sin in that they worshiped false gods, the Pharo (speeling). God gives a lot of chances for people to repent, and he is very patient. But eventually something has to be done.
 

Davegod75

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2000
5,320
0
0
Question- Can the Bible really be trusted?

Answer- There are two questions to consider on this issue: "Is what we have now an accurate copy of what was originally written?" and "Did it really happen the way it was written?"

First, "Is what we have now authentic?"

The way way to determine if a book that exists today is likely to be an accurate copy of the original is done in two ways.

First, consider the years from when the book was written to the earliest copy that we have now. Then, see if there are enough copies to cross check with one another to ascertain any missing, altered or miscopied parts. Then you can look at other writings during the same time period to see what was or was not said about the subject in question to see if your material is upheld or refuted by those outside sources.

In the first case we have parts of the book of John in a library in England dated at 120 AD. The events occurred around 33 AD and the author lived until around 90 AD so it is much closer (40 yrs.) than say Julius Caesar who lived 100 - 44 BC and the earliest copy we have is 900 AD. In fact, the bible far exceeds all these ancient documents on that score. (Homer - 500 yrs., Plato - 1300 yrs., Aristotle - 1400 yrs., Euripedes - 1500 yrs., Tacitus - 1000 yrs., Caesar - 950 yrs.)

Also the number of copies of these other ancient books range from 10 for Julius Caesar to 643 for Homer .There are a staggering 24,000 copies of the Bible in three different languages making it the most validated work by far from that period. In terms of content. By comparison we have; Homer - 643 copies, Plato - 7 copies, Aristotle - 49 copies, Euripedes - 9 copies, Tacitus - 20 copies, Caesar - 10 copies.

Second, did the things that were written actually occur?

The Gospels are mostly eyewitness accounts of events that occurred. To determine if they are truthful we need to weigh the evidence like you would in a court to make a fair judgment.

For instance, the Gospels are four different accounts of the life of a person named Jesus Christ who claimed He was God so we have to ask ourselves, were the people who wrote the Gospels in a position to eyewitness the events?.

John as an early follower of Christ was there, Matthew also an apostle was there, Luke was a physician who wanted to meticulously record the events of those days for history and traveled with the apostles, Mark was a young man in Jerusalem at the time and later traveled with Paul and finally worked with Peter to write his account of the life of Christ. So, the answer is that they could have recorded the life of Christ. Now the question is did they?

The early followers of Jesus had nothing to gain and everything to loose by telling people about Jesus. They were hunted down and killed and their possessions were taken away. Is it not more likely that what they were saying was true, than that all these people traipsed all over the Mediterranean being imprisoned and executed for a lie? They were not paid but lived off handouts from others like beggars to tell what they had seen. Ask yourself why they would do that if they knew the whole thing was a lie?

According to the Bible when Christ was arrested his followers ran and hid and only came out later after he appeared to them. If he had died and that was the end of him wouldn't they have scattered and gone back to their villages never to be heard from again? But, instead, after Christ appeared to them and proved to them that he had actually risen from the dead they held great rallies. No only that but they held them in the temple courtyard right under the noses of the priests that had just put Christ to death. They told thousands of people about Christ during that time.

The crucifixion of Christ was talked about throughout the region as is evident from what Paul said to King Agrippa when he was brought before him for sentencing: "The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner." (Acts 26:26)

Now consider; Where are the charges of fraud if the crucifixion did not actually happen? Jesus was referred to in Greek, Roman and Jewish documents outside the Bible (i.e. Josephus, Pliny, The Talmud) but no known document of the time claimed that it was all a hoax. The Jewish high priests tried to bribe the Roman guards into saying that friends had stolen the body but neither the Jews nor the Romans could hide the fact that there was no body. Here was a person who they mockingly called the "king of the Jews" who was nailed to a cross and died and whose body mysteriously vanished. Try as they might, they could not account for what happened to it.

Earmarks of true history-

When an account is true it has certain earmarks that a fiction does not. For instance, people of the day did not commonly talk like Jesus did. If someone were making up a story to be believable they would not have a person saying things like "Verily, amen amen, truly truly, surely" which were not forms of speech used at the time.

If the Gospels were fabricated by the writers they could have had Christ settling the arguments causing so much strife within the early church. Instead, they say nothing about the things the early followers were arguing about, like the need for circumcision and role of Gentiles in the church. Wouldn?t there have been great temptation to flavor the contents to favor their point of view?

If the stories were contrived why would there be things that might be embarrassing or misunderstood to readers like the anger of Christ, unbelief by his own family, and several other things that are debated to this day?

The indications above do not prove the truth of the Bible but they have the ring of truth to them and make it more likely that what Christ said and did was true than not.

If this seems logical to you, wouldn't it be important to study what is said in the Gospels to see if you subscribe to it, rather than dismiss the whole thing out of hand? Don't you owe yourself that much?
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
4
76
Originally posted by: plastick
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: plastick
I am reading through the Bible starting with the old testiment and I am on Exodus 12. I am reading about how God killed all the firstborn sons in Eygpt. Pretty wild...

Does anyone else find this disturbing? A God of love kills every first born in an entire country, something is very wrong with that account. Same applies to the account about Noah and the ark except for in that situation every human on the planet with the exception of Noah his family were killed. Then you have Job, Satan convinced God that he could make Job break his faith. In the end God allowed Satan to kill all of Job's children (I think he had 10 kids).

Anyone else every think about stuff like that?

I think of stuff like that all the time. But I have to realize that the words of the bible have a ture deeper meaning than can be seen if read properly.

Anyway I figure God killed all those people mainly because they were already super deep in sin in that they worshiped false gods, the Pharo (speeling). God gives a lot of chances for people to repent, and he is very patient. But eventually something has to be done.


I don't see anything wrong with God punishing sinners, but in those examples I mentioned before innocent people were killed. I find it hard to believe that infants and young children should deserve death. And in the flood account an entire planet was wiped out, is it possible that everyone on Earth at that time was wicked or evil. And then to complicate matters even further a lot of the bad stuff that was going on at the time was due to the nephelim (sp?). (nephilim were the children of fallen angels and human females) So basically much of the problems right before the flood can be directly traced to rebellious angels but yet there is no mention of those angels being killed during the flood.

Its things like this that make me skeptical about the bible.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,063
18,441
146
Originally posted by: Greyd
Originally posted by: Amused
That the bible has factual and proven hitorical events as a background for it's central story makes it no more a true story than the movie Forrest Gump.

I agree with the first part of your statement. Rarely is the Bible attacked on grounds of proof of the facts concerning historical events, places and people. In actuality, history and archaeology has shown that the Bible is one of the best documents out there.

Now, what you wanna do with that assertion/evidence is up to you. In the end, its a matter of Faith.

Why only the first part? Forrest Gump is historically accurate too in it's retelling of the background events for the central story. In 2000 years someone could make the assertion that the entire story is true based on that and be doing the very same thing people do with the bible.
 

MithShrike

Diamond Member
May 5, 2002
3,440
0
0
Hmm... We did a segement in my World Literature class about Noah's Ark. The story is derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story in there is from yet another story. Anyway, they did find a boat and some archaeological proof that some guy did survive a flood and brought some animals with him. Well, I must say that I found it all to be very interesting.
 

sciencewhiz

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
5,885
8
81
If you were the Pharoh(sp?) and were an all-powerful ruler, would you want it to be known that by defying God you caused every first born son to die? Or that you lost your entire army in the Red Sea?
 
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