On Atheism vs. Christianity

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
As a former Christian who recently converted to atheism, I have to say that it's a huge weight off my chest.

best part of atheism is you don't have to convert to it

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
As a former Christian who recently converted to atheism, I have to say that it's a huge weight off my chest.

best part of atheism is you don't have to convert to it

:laugh: I was going to ask about the ceremony but decided that would be tacky...

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: inspire

Originally posted by: actuarial
I really don't like this comment at all. For one, you're just shifting the definition of god. I could say god is my coffee table, and then of course god exists. When people battle the existence of god we battle the existence of the three pronged god: the creator, the father, the tinkerer. Now you're giving up on the latter two and going with the first.

All your definition does is create a new god of the blanks. You don't understand how there can (or can't) be an origin, so you call it a god. Why is it so hard for people to just say "I don't know!"?

The same reason why it's so hard for you to accept an alternate definition. But I didn't give up on the other two. They simply can't be reasonably discussed in a philosophical manner in a forum of aethiests, agnostics, and deists - because god's role as a creator is a prerequisite to its role as a father and a tinkerer.

Nobody ever considers god as a being who just showed up one day to a pre-built universe and started fucking with things. Furthermore, most people, including aetheistic scientists, still grapple with the question of the origin of the universe. This is why I discussed it.

It's natural for people to question the axioms they observe in the world. Had Hilbert (among countless others) been so crass as to say 'I just don't know', an entire era of mathematics and physics would have been delayed.

The concept that a god is a thing that is not to be questioned, explored, and understood is not one I've been able to embrace.

I can accept an alternate definition, but it's impossible to debate when you keep moving the goal posts. As others have stated also, adding "god" doesn't actually give you a beginning. If anything, believing god started it all IS refusing to question.

You also made the mistake of assuming my opinion that "I don't know" equates to "we shouldn't bother looking into it." I think we should continue to look into the "starting point" of our universe, or if there even was one. I just choose to wait for evidence of something instead of just creating a definition to nicely fill the gap. Remember that a few thousand years ago your logic could easily be used to show that God exists because the sun revolves around the earth.

To make an analogy (though mine always aren't the best).

I don't know how a car engine works. I know some basic things, but can't really fill in all the blanks. I would not then turn around and say "I don't know how the engine works, but I have seen cars moving. That means that engines DO work. This process is, in and of itself, a god - a mover. It has made the engine operate."

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
As a former Christian who recently converted to atheism, I have to say that it's a huge weight off my chest.

best part of atheism is you don't have to convert to it

:laugh: I was going to ask about the ceremony but decided that would be tacky...

There were a bunch of atheists on youtube who posted videos of themselves blasphaming the holy spirit (the unforgivable sin) to prove their atheism, that's probably about as close as you come to an atheist ceremony.

BTW, how come you guys didn't tell me that Sunday mornings were so awesome? I've spent most of my life hating half the weekend!

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
As a former Christian who recently converted to atheism, I have to say that it's a huge weight off my chest.

best part of atheism is you don't have to convert to it

:laugh: I was going to ask about the ceremony but decided that would be tacky...

Depends on your religion.

For a Jew, thou must cut thy yarmulke into quarters and bury on unsanctified ground. Walk three times around it, widdershins, while thinking about deep fried bacon. Re-attaching the foreskin is entirely optional procedure.

For a muslim, one must take the koran, tear off the binding, replace it with a playboy cover, and hand it to a homeless person.

For a christian, one must dress as a priest on halloween but anytime you are introduced to someone you must state that the law requires you to inform them that you may not be left alone with any children nor can you step foot within 100 yards of schools or playgrounds.

Easy peesy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
As a former Christian who recently converted to atheism, I have to say that it's a huge weight off my chest.

I don't have to wonder why "God" doesn't answer my prayers.

I don't have to wonder why "God" lets people suffer

I don't have to wonder why Jesus showed up in a small middle eastern village 2,000 years ago and hasn't been heard from before or since (despite human existance of 200,000 years)

I don't have to feel guilty about not liking church.

I don't worry that my atheist brother is going to hell. I know that nothing is happening "for a reason" they are just happening. I don't have to worry about all the sexual discrimination in the Christian church. I don't have to think that sex is evil. I don't have to worry about if I'm in the "right" religion.

I love that I no longer have to reconcile my scientific understanding with my religious beliefs. AND I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO CHURCH ANYMORE!!!!!!!!

Perhaps it is Skoorb then who was projecting and is it is really he who really wants to kill himself.

 

[Moonbeam]

What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning, where every little child that dies is dead forever, never to know the beauty of love, never to have a chance at life. How about all the lovers who die young, separated from the ones they love or who lose their lover. How can you stand to live in a universe where pain can exceed human imagination and it all means nothing.

Atheism is great for people who do not feel. But when the door to pain opens the bottom falls away. Lucky is he who is numb, or is he cursed? Lucky are the privileged who do not know what it is to suffer. What you should do is take the faith from those deluded billions that but for God would die of broken hearts.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: jonks
...
For a Jew, thou must cut thy yarmulke into quarters and bury on unsanctified ground. Walk three times around it, widdershins, while thinking about deep fried bacon. Re-attaching the foreskin is entirely optional procedure.

For a muslim, one must take the koran, tear off the binding, replace it with a playboy cover, and hand it to a homeless person.

For a christian, one must dress as a priest on halloween but anytime you are introduced to someone you must state that the law requires you to inform them that you may not be left alone with any children nor can you step foot within 100 yards of schools or playgrounds.

Easy peesy.

:laugh: These made me think of jerry espenson on boston legal. Maybe complicated, repetitive rituals are a basic human need and I'm missing out.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning, where every little child that dies is dead forever, never to know the beauty of love, never to have a chance at life. How about all the lovers who die young, separated from the ones they love or who lose their lover. How can you stand to live in a universe where pain can exceed human imagination and it all means nothing.

Thinking there's no god is surely preferable to thinking there is one. Because if he exists he's a seriously deranged entity who gets off on some sick shit. All the countries are like his cable channels. He loves tuning into Africa, that's a hoot. His history channel runs Aushwitz 24/7. Oh yes, this being should have a restraining order to keep the fuck away from earth.

In 3001, after all religion faded into mythology the way we view greek mythology, Arthur Clarke posits that the entirety of the human race suffered under a massive self-delusion of religion. If only we could get rid of all that shit before 1000 years from now...

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning, where every little child that dies is dead forever, never to know the beauty of love, never to have a chance at life. How about all the lovers who die young, separated from the ones they love or who lose their lover. How can you stand to live in a universe where pain can exceed human imagination and it all means nothing.

Atheism is great for people who do not feel. But when the door to pain opens the bottom falls away. Lucky is he who is numb, or is he cursed? Lucky are the privileged who do not know what it is to suffer. What you should do is take the faith from those deluded billions that but for God would die of broken hearts.

I manage just fine. It's the only life I get.

How do the religious live in a world where, by their own church's rules, 99% of people will endure an eternity of suffering in hell?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
To take a stab at what I think Skoorb is alluding to is this.

The vast majority of people want their lives to make a real difference, to have real purpose. Someone who is religious believes that there is a thing greater than themselves that exists in objective reality. That gives them reason to be.

If someone does not believe in a higher being, (in this context a god and yes I know there can be other interpretations, but they too are a matter of faith), and all is as it appears, then there is no real purpose. We can construct an arbitrary one of course and attach significance to it, but it's just an invention of faith. It's not real either.

Consequently if you were to look at the ramifications of it all, we are just a coincidence. Nothing you can do has any lasting significance. Eventually the universe will grow old and die and that itself means nothing. That does not prevent people who are atheistic from having principles or loving their children and a thousand other things, but behind all that is nothing. We are born, we love, breed and die, and what does it "mean"? Nothing.

Since that is the case living or dying matters not one bit. It's kind of a depressing reality IMO, but some are perfectly comfortable with it and I don't thing that suicide makes any sense at all. You still can love, and live for a while, and I since dying isn't preferable to life take what you have while you have it.

The real irony of this is that to an atheist, the religious man is merely adhering to an arbitrary purpose that someone else told him to; it has no more meaning than the atheist's. But people are unwilling to accept that their deeply held beliefs could be no more meaningful than the beliefs of the lunatic shouting at squirrels in the park.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
As a former Christian who recently converted to atheism, I have to say that it's a huge weight off my chest.

best part of atheism is you don't have to convert to it

:laugh: I was going to ask about the ceremony but decided that would be tacky...

There were a bunch of atheists on youtube who posted videos of themselves blasphaming the holy spirit (the unforgivable sin) to prove their atheism, that's probably about as close as you come to an atheist ceremony.

BTW, how come you guys didn't tell me that Sunday mornings were so awesome? I've spent most of my life hating half the weekend!

CBS News Sunday Morning, hosted by Charles Osgood is a good 'news' show that won't set your teeth on edge.

Taking a relaxed walk with the so and/or the pets around your property or neighborhood is also good. You might get some cheap thrills watching neighbors scrambling into their cars cuss'n and bitch'n about being late to church.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning, where every little child that dies is dead forever, never to know the beauty of love, never to have a chance at life. How about all the lovers who die young, separated from the ones they love or who lose their lover. How can you stand to live in a universe where pain can exceed human imagination and it all means nothing.

Thinking there's no god is surely preferable to thinking there is one. Because if he exists he's a seriously deranged entity who gets off on some sick shit. All the countries are like his cable channels. He loves tuning into Africa, that's a hoot. His history channel runs Aushwitz 24/7. Oh yes, this being should have a restraining order to keep the fuck away from earth.

In 3001, after all religion faded into mythology the way we view greek mythology, Arthur Clarke posits that the entirety of the human race suffered under a massive self-delusion of religion. If only we could get rid of all that shit before 1000 years from now...

The seriously deranged are those who do those things, the atheists and pretend believers. Nobody who knows God harms another.

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
To take a stab at what I think Skoorb is alluding to is this.

The vast majority of people want their lives to make a real difference, to have real purpose. Someone who is religious believes that there is a thing greater than themselves that exists in objective reality. That gives them reason to be.

If someone does not believe in a higher being, (in this context a god and yes I know there can be other interpretations, but they too are a matter of faith), and all is as it appears, then there is no real purpose. We can construct an arbitrary one of course and attach significance to it, but it's just an invention of faith. It's not real either.

Consequently if you were to look at the ramifications of it all, we are just a coincidence. Nothing you can do has any lasting significance. Eventually the universe will grow old and die and that itself means nothing. That does not prevent people who are atheistic from having principles or loving their children and a thousand other things, but behind all that is nothing. We are born, we love, breed and die, and what does it "mean"? Nothing.

Since that is the case living or dying matters not one bit. It's kind of a depressing reality IMO, but some are perfectly comfortable with it and I don't thing that suicide makes any sense at all. You still can love, and live for a while, and I since dying isn't preferable to life take what you have while you have it.

The real irony of this is that to an atheist, the religious man is merely adhering to an arbitrary purpose that someone else told him to; it has no more meaning than the atheist's. But people are unwilling to accept that their deeply held beliefs could be no more meaningful than the beliefs of the lunatic shouting at squirrels in the park.

It's kind of a scary thought, isn't it? That we're just hurdling through space on this rock. Our existence is not even a footnote in cosmic history. But that is reality, and facing it is highly theraputic. I look a life much differently than I did as a Christian. Life used to be a big tryout, you had to live it in a certain way to prove yourself worthy to get into heaven. Now it's just something you live because it's the only one you've got.

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning, where every little child that dies is dead forever, never to know the beauty of love, never to have a chance at life. How about all the lovers who die young, separated from the ones they love or who lose their lover. How can you stand to live in a universe where pain can exceed human imagination and it all means nothing.

Atheism is great for people who do not feel. But when the door to pain opens the bottom falls away. Lucky is he who is numb, or is he cursed? Lucky are the privileged who do not know what it is to suffer. What you should do is take the faith from those deluded billions that but for God would die of broken hearts.

I manage just fine. It's the only life I get.

How do the religious live in a world where, by their own church's rules, 99% of people will endure an eternity of suffering in hell?

Same here. But some delusional people prefer to live in fantasy lala land with fairy tales.

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning, where every little child that dies is dead forever, never to know the beauty of love, never to have a chance at life. How about all the lovers who die young, separated from the ones they love or who lose their lover. How can you stand to live in a universe where pain can exceed human imagination and it all means nothing.

Atheism is great for people who do not feel. But when the door to pain opens the bottom falls away. Lucky is he who is numb, or is he cursed? Lucky are the privileged who do not know what it is to suffer. What you should do is take the faith from those deluded billions that but for God would die of broken hearts.

I manage just fine. It's the only life I get.

How do the religious live in a world where, by their own church's rules, 99% of people will endure an eternity of suffering in hell?

I think I see Moonbeam's point though. I'll bet if I was rotting in a jail cell somewhere or getting ready to storm Omaha beach, I'd believe in God too; atheism is a luxury. I think it's also useful to remember that religion has its evolutionary purpose. The ability to believe in God is part our our biology.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well Atomic Playboy how things appear are entirely dependent on a priori beliefs. I take your point, but the atheist assumes his version of reality is correct. That being the case squirrel calling is an apt analogy. It almost goes without saying that if the belief is that there is a god who is the Creator then it's not arbitrary.

Now since neither hypothesis is testable, this is forever academic.

I'm always hesitant to participate in religious threads since they often devolve into a flame fest, but this has generally been fairly adult material.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I think I see Moonbeam's point though. I'll bet if I was rotting in a jail cell somewhere or getting ready to storm Omaha beach, I'd believe in God too; atheism is a luxury. I think it's also useful to remember that religion has its evolutionary purpose. The ability to believe in God is part our our biology.

I know religion HAD its evolutionary purpose, I'm just naive enough to think that we've gotten to a place in which it has run its course. There are a lot of places in the world that prove me wrong, but I think the western world is not one of them.

I believe we have gotten to a point where religion is beginning to hold us back, which is the only reason I care enough to argue with people on its merits. I don't actively argue with those that believe in vampires, because they are small in number and make no significant impact on society.

In all honesty, and not to start a flame fest (though it might), in my mind living in a world full of the religious is like living in a town full of people who won't go out at night for fear of vampires. Many of the people that run the town share this belief, and then base their laws off of it. I don't want to have a curfew based on some else's superstisions, and I don't want my kids taught to fear the fangs.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Well Atomic Playboy how things appear are entirely dependent on a priori beliefs. I take your point, but the atheist assumes his version of reality is correct. That being the case squirrel calling is an apt analogy. It almost goes without saying that if the belief is that there is a god who is the Creator then it's not arbitrary.

Now since neither hypothesis is testable, this is forever academic.

I could handle this but some feel confident enough to fight wars over it.

I'm always hesitant to participate in religious threads since they often devolve into a flame fest, but this has generally been fairly adult material.

I was thinking the same thing. We need to get on the ball. Our fierce reputation is getting tarnished.

 

[imported_inspire]

Originally posted by: actuarial
I can accept an alternate definition, but it's impossible to debate when you keep moving the goal posts. As others have stated also, adding "god" doesn't actually give you a beginning. If anything, believing god started it all IS refusing to question.

We're mincing words, here. I didn't bother to read through the first 8 pages of roundabout discussion, so I didn't adhere to the developing definitions you guys had. I didn't move the goal posts. I posted my opinion. My post didn't have a goal; just my insight. I was not looking for a debate.

You also made the mistake of assuming my opinion that "I don't know" equates to "we shouldn't bother looking into it." I think we should continue to look into the "starting point" of our universe, or if there even was one. I just choose to wait for evidence of something instead of just creating a definition to nicely fill the gap. Remember that a few thousand years ago your logic could easily be used to show that God exists because the sun revolves around the earth.

Right, but seems as though you make the mistake here of thinking that one can only create a definition or continue to question. In all things, assumptions must be made to arrive at conclusions. Topology has become a developed field of Mathematics mostly due to the assumption that any space worth talking about is Hausdorrf. Physics has M-Theory and the Uncertainty Principle - theories which are roughly consistent, but yet proven.

To make an analogy (though mine always aren't the best).

I don't know how a car engine works. I know some basic things, but can't really fill in all the blanks. I would not then turn around and say "I don't know how the engine works, but I have seen cars moving. That means that engines DO work. This process is, in and of itself, a god - a mover. It has made the engine operate."

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure it addresses what I'm trying to say here. What I'm getting at is that human knowledge and understanding has not yet ruled out the possibly of a creator. The are still characteristics of our Universe that we don't understand, and that I personally feel we never will. There are indeed sound theories which essentially state that a system cannot explain itself.

The issue is one of faith. Just as Euclid's Parallel Postulate underpinned geometry for millenia until Hilbert put it in its rightful place, deism and atheism will remain a matter of little more than personal belief until the time that this issue, as well, is put to rest.

Until that time, I will believe.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Well Atomic Playboy how things appear are entirely dependent on a priori beliefs. I take your point, but the atheist assumes his version of reality is correct. That being the case squirrel calling is an apt analogy. It almost goes without saying that if the belief is that there is a god who is the Creator then it's not arbitrary.

Now since neither hypothesis is testable, this is forever academic.

I'm always hesitant to participate in religious threads since they often devolve into a flame fest, but this has generally been fairly adult material.

Eh, whether invisible leprechauns exist is also untestable but if someone ordered their life around the likelihood of such creatures existing I'd say they were off their rocker.

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I think I see Moonbeam's point though. I'll bet if I was rotting in a jail cell somewhere or getting ready to storm Omaha beach, I'd believe in God too; atheism is a luxury. I think it's also useful to remember that religion has its evolutionary purpose. The ability to believe in God is part our our biology.

I know religion HAD its evolutionary purpose, I'm just naive enough to think that we've gotten to a place in which it has run its course. There are a lot of places in the world that prove me wrong, but I think the western world is not one of them.

I believe we have gotten to a point where religion is beginning to hold us back, which is the only reason I care enough to argue with people on its merits. I don't actively argue with those that believe in vampires, because they are small in number and make no significant impact on society.

In all honesty, and not to start a flame fest (though it might), in my mind living in a world full of the religious is like living in a town full of people who won't go out at night for fear of vampires. Many of the people that run the town share this belief, and then base their laws off of it. I don't want to have a curfew based on some else's superstisions, and I don't want my kids taught to fear the fangs.

Agree totally with this post, I think I was referring more to a grieving mother who wants to believe her daugter that died at 12 years old is in heaven.

I'm thrilled that the percentage of Americans that are atheists is increasing; I think we can look forward to much more sensable government, education, and just general day to day living. I can't wait for the first presidential candidate that either refuses to profess Christianity, or downright describes himself/herself as atheist.

 

[imported_inspire]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: Blackjack200
I think I see Moonbeam's point though. I'll bet if I was rotting in a jail cell somewhere or getting ready to storm Omaha beach, I'd believe in God too; atheism is a luxury. I think it's also useful to remember that religion has its evolutionary purpose. The ability to believe in God is part our our biology.

I know religion HAD its evolutionary purpose, I'm just naive enough to think that we've gotten to a place in which it has run its course. There are a lot of places in the world that prove me wrong, but I think the western world is not one of them.

I believe we have gotten to a point where religion is beginning to hold us back, which is the only reason I care enough to argue with people on its merits. I don't actively argue with those that believe in vampires, because they are small in number and make no significant impact on society.

In all honesty, and not to start a flame fest (though it might), in my mind living in a world full of the religious is like living in a town full of people who won't go out at night for fear of vampires. Many of the people that run the town share this belief, and then base their laws off of it. I don't want to have a curfew based on some else's superstisions, and I don't want my kids taught to fear the fangs.

On the whole, I see your point. I disagree, though, to the extend that while religion may have run its course in terms of its prominence in human history, faith will continue to be an essential part of life.

But, if we're all honest with ourselves, we find that, in general, many people who are passionate about their cause have characteristics akin to those you dislike in the religious.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I don't understand, however, is the glibness of atheists. How can you suffer to live in a universe that has no meaning . . .

(Keep in mind that I believe in a "divinity" . . .) Look at much of what anyone here thinks, but more important feels has meaning for them -- nVidia over ATI, the reverse, their relationship with their significant other, their realtionship with their children, living up to their own personal code of ethics, a really good beer (in fact, I believe I'll have another one right now -- ALL of these things, large or small, have meaning because we DECIDE they have meaning for us, and this can be completely independent of whether or not there is a "God" or an afterlife, and completely independent of whether we believe there is a "God" or an afterlife.

Though I am a "believer" in my own personal way, I say that there is nothing glib about the worldview of the person who has thought it through, as best they can (which is all any of can do anyway) and decided, even perhaps sadly, that there is no God or afterlife.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: inspire
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure it addresses what I'm trying to say here. What I'm getting at is that human knowledge and understanding has not yet ruled out the possibly of a creator. The are still characteristics of our Universe that we don't understand, and that I personally feel we never will. There are indeed sound theories which essentially state that a system cannot explain itself.

The issue is one of faith. Just as Euclid's Parallel Postulate underpinned geometry for millenia until Hilbert put it in its rightful place, deism and atheism will remain a matter of little more than personal belief until the time that this issue, as well, is put to rest.

Until that time, I will believe.

I agree it's personal belief, I just think it's baseless person belief. I don't have a personal belief on the origin, because I don't think we have any evidence to point to one thing over another.

While it may seem like an exaggeration (in my mind it's not), human knowledge hasn't ruled out the possibility that our reality is akin to "the matrix", or that the spark of life was actually planted by aliens for the purposes of studying evolution, or that the whole universe is actually a painting by some 5th dimensional starving artist (Sudan proves he is still refining his form).

If the latter situation IS the truth, we could always fit the definition of God such that the painter satisfies it, but what's the point? It seems so arbitrary to choose one scenario over another at this point in human knowledge.