On Atheism vs. Christianity

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: jonks
http://www.tampabay.com/incomi...s-in-jerusalem/1029820

[FL Gov] Crist told a group of real estate agents Friday that he's had prayer notes placed in the Western Wall in Jerusalem each year and no major storms have hit Florida.


*********

So my question is this: why did Crist kill that 7 year old girl who drowned in Maine?

I don't see how anyone is shocked at govt when we elect leaders who by their own admission must be either superstitious fools or pandering hypocrites.

I used to wear an elephant hunter's hat when gardening to keep the elephants out of my garden and, by God, it always worked.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

Yes, but God put that tree in the garden. Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions. Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit? I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin? THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin./

I only tell you what I think. I do not believe in your God who puts trees in gardens. My explanation is pure and simple science, the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I don't see God as a person or thingi, but a state of consciousness you can either access or not.

I find folk who believe in God as some being often are driven to all sorts of crazy notions to defend it and I find atheists to be fools who have no experience with states of being. I sort of hate everybody on all sides of the issue and they hate me. Hehe.

Hate comes from within a corrupted heart. It not hate per se that drives you, but the forces of hate around you. Until you realize your own self love and consciousness, you will forever be lost.

/end Moon response for hate

:tease: all in good fun

What I can't do is will myself to love myself when I don't nor be conscious when I am not. I believe that religions are ways around that problem not open to me. They are bridges that step right over that. Faith, as they say, can move mountains because that faith is in something real. We CAN love ourselves and become conscious and that was the real job of religion.

I would comment, but then I remembered your sig: The above is probably just my usual sarcasm and in no way reflects my real opinion

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: jonks
http://www.tampabay.com/incomi...s-in-jerusalem/1029820

[FL Gov] Crist told a group of real estate agents Friday that he's had prayer notes placed in the Western Wall in Jerusalem each year and no major storms have hit Florida.


*********

So my question is this: why did Crist kill that 7 year old girl who drowned in Maine?

I don't see how anyone is shocked at govt when we elect leaders who by their own admission must be either superstitious fools or pandering hypocrites.

The georgia governor sponsored a state-wide pray-for-rain day a couple of years ago during a major drought. It started raining a month later - about the same time it does every year.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But shira, I answered your questions and you didn't yet answer mine so let me ask again:

s: Hah! You can't pour any tea into my cup because your pot is empty.

M: Yup, completely full of no-tea.

s: You impute ego-based motive to my beliefs ("pride in my own courage in the face of oblivion"), and continually overlook the obvious: I see the universe as empty and without purpose, and I cannot help but believe what I see. I don't believe what I do because I NEED there to be only a void (I would much prefer to believe in a universe with a loving God), but I believe what I do because I have no choice. In fact, I feel sadness, not pride.

M: Ah, just like me. But do you ever wonder why you argue your case? Why would we want to preach that kind of bad news? (Maybe announce would have been better than preach

s: You don't know my needs at all, you just assume them because it's a convenient rhetorical device.

M: How could your needs be any different than mine, not, of course that I know what mine are? Just a minor question not too important

s: Here's a simple question for you, which I'm certain you won't answer: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no God of any sort - either inside, outside, or any other way - and that the universe is without any ultimate purpose?

M: If you look back through the thread I think you will see that that is almost exactly what I believe.

s: Time for some more evasion, eh Moonie?

M: No just more questions:

You said in another post:

"When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place."

Did you ever determine why? This is what I want to know. What was the need. That is my real question

"But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating."

As to my need for my pain as a young main to have a purpose: Well of course I wanted order. The belief that "there's a purpose in all this" told me that the pain was temporary and gave me the strength to go on. Who doesn't want comfort when the world seems so horrible?

What was I liberated from? From the constant need to

From what were you liberated? I ask because presumably it has to do with that need I want to know about.

My answer to your question about liberation also (I think) provides my motive for posting the "bad news."

From what was I liberated? From the mind games I had to continually play in order to reconcile the obvious chaos of the world with the ordered and purposeful universe I needed to make it all okay.

I was confronted with a choice: Could I continue to live my life NEEDING to fabricate an elaborate story for myself that, if disguised as a Hollywood script, would be derided as inconsistent and absurd? Or could I just give up on NEEDING and learn to accept the world at face value, not making any assumptions about things not in objective evidence, even if that meant that pain and joy were just random events along the bumpy road to oblivion?

The choice was simpler than you might imagine. Not to trivialize it, but to provide an analogy:

Whenever I was in the family car when my mother was driving, I would get frustrated and anxious (she drove very slowly, and often missed her turn). I would frequently criticize her; I was a classic back-seat driver. She frustrated me and I carped at her - not a happy situation. Then one day a thought occurred to me: Couldn't I just let it go? Couldn't I just give up the need to control the situation, to just let my mother drive however she wanted? (I mean, it wasn't as if she was getting in accidents; yeah, maybe we wouldn't get where we were going as fast as if I were driving, but we DID get there eventually.) I realized the stakes were non-existent, and I did let go. And from that moment, not even the slightest thought of frustration or anxiety entered my mind when my mother was driving.

I believe the stakes of existence are similarly trivial.

 

[Moonbeam]

B: I don't believe in that God that puts trees in gardens, I just believe in making sense out of the allegories of the Bible.

M: But you also said:

B: "Yes, but God put that tree in the garden."

M: So how, if you don't believe in such a God, are you going to make sense of that?

B: Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions.

M: Again we don't seem to believe in a God who predicts so this is another non issue which makes no sense, no?

B: Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit?

M: Again, I don't believe in this foreknowledge stuff so explaining the allegory requires other interpretations, it seems to me.

B: I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin?

M: I agree with the first part but biting the apple made us human. Sin is a human illusion it does not exist except as an artifact of language.

B: The sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin.

M: There is no knowledge of good and evil. It was an invention of something that does not exist, something that punishment makes you believe in. Self hate for being evil is real, but it is also based on the belief in what is not real. There is no evil, there is no sin, and the garden of eden is within you all the time. Only we cast ourselves out by projecting our evil out there.

 

[Moonbeam]

I would comment, but then I remembered your sig: The above is probably just my usual sarcasm and in no way reflects my real opinion

Not in this case.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I would comment, but then I remembered your sig: The above is probably just my usual sarcasm and in no way reflects my real opinion

Not in this case.

Then I agree with you on the post I responded to

 

[Brigandier]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
B: I don't believe in that God that puts trees in gardens, I just believe in making sense out of the allegories of the Bible.

M: But you also said:

B: "Yes, but God put that tree in the garden."

M: So how, if you don't believe in such a God, are you going to make sense of that?

B: Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions.

M: Again we don't seem to believe in a God who predicts so this is another non issue which makes no sense, no?

B: Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit?

M: Again, I don't believe in this foreknowledge stuff so explaining the allegory requires other interpretations, it seems to me.

B: I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin?

M: I agree with the first part but biting the apple made us human. Sin is a human illusion it does not exist except as an artifact of language.

B: The sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin.

M: There is no knowledge of good and evil. It was an invention of something that does not exist, something that punishment makes you believe in. Self hate for being evil is real, but it is also based on the belief in what is not real. There is no evil, there is no sin, and the garden of eden is within you all the time. Only we cast ourselves out by projecting our evil out there.

I agree with you. I only try to understand their God by what they say of him. I use the Bible to contain the view of their God and use that view to better understand all the stories and such in the bible. Do I believe in good and evil? Kind of, but my good is truth and my evil is falsehood. that makes the Bible both good and evil, and I can live with that.

My view is that the Bible is like any other book, it tries to get humans to see truth through the illustration of all our ideals. It does this by lying to us so that we may see truth. Again, this contradiction causes me no pain. My beliefs are both bigger than and contained within the Christian beliefs. My beliefs can only be contained within the entire breadth of humanity.


Edit: To answer your first point better: I believe that such a god could exist, but I do not believe that he does. My brain takes that small percentage that he could be real and I extrapolate all sense from that minuscule percentage of doubt. My doubt is my belief.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But shira, I answered your questions and you didn't yet answer mine so let me ask again:

s: Hah! You can't pour any tea into my cup because your pot is empty.

M: Yup, completely full of no-tea.

s: You impute ego-based motive to my beliefs ("pride in my own courage in the face of oblivion"), and continually overlook the obvious: I see the universe as empty and without purpose, and I cannot help but believe what I see. I don't believe what I do because I NEED there to be only a void (I would much prefer to believe in a universe with a loving God), but I believe what I do because I have no choice. In fact, I feel sadness, not pride.

M: Ah, just like me. But do you ever wonder why you argue your case? Why would we want to preach that kind of bad news? (Maybe announce would have been better than preach

s: You don't know my needs at all, you just assume them because it's a convenient rhetorical device.

M: How could your needs be any different than mine, not, of course that I know what mine are? Just a minor question not too important

s: Here's a simple question for you, which I'm certain you won't answer: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no God of any sort - either inside, outside, or any other way - and that the universe is without any ultimate purpose?

M: If you look back through the thread I think you will see that that is almost exactly what I believe.

s: Time for some more evasion, eh Moonie?

M: No just more questions:

You said in another post:

"When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place."

Did you ever determine why? This is what I want to know. What was the need. That is my real question

"But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating."

As to my need for my pain as a young main to have a purpose: Well of course I wanted order. The belief that "there's a purpose in all this" told me that the pain was temporary and gave me the strength to go on. Who doesn't want comfort when the world seems so horrible?

What was I liberated from? From the constant need to

From what were you liberated? I ask because presumably it has to do with that need I want to know about.

My answer to your question about liberation also (I think) provides my motive for posting the "bad news."

From what was I liberated? From the mind games I had to continually play in order to reconcile the obvious chaos of the world with the ordered and purposeful universe I needed to make it all okay.

I was confronted with a choice: Could I continue to live my life NEEDING to fabricate an elaborate story for myself that, if disguised as a Hollywood script, would be derided as inconsistent and absurd? Or could I just give up on NEEDING and learn to accept the world at face value, not making any assumptions about things not in objective evidence, even if that meant that pain and joy were just random events along the bumpy road to oblivion?

The choice was simpler than you might imagine. Not to trivialize it, but to provide an analogy:

Whenever I was in the family car when my mother was driving, I would get frustrated and anxious (she drove very slowly, and often missed her turn). I would frequently criticize her; I was a classic back-seat driver. She frustrated me and I carped at her - not a happy situation. Then one day a thought occurred to me: Couldn't I just let it go? Couldn't I just give up the need to control the situation, to just let my mother drive however she wanted? (I mean, it wasn't as if she was getting in accidents; yeah, maybe we wouldn't get where we were going as fast as if I were driving, but we DID get there eventually.) I realized the stakes were non-existent, and I did let go. And from that moment, not even the slightest thought of frustration or anxiety entered my mind when my mother was driving.

I believe the stakes of existence are similarly trivial.

Yes, exactly! The need for meaning is as meaningless as everything else. What you did with your Mother the man of God does with the Universe. You took control of the driving by allowing her to drive, control via surrender. And wherever the universe is going we'll get there eventually. It is the ride where the action is, being able to be a passenger.

If you take a rat and destroy it's cortex it will be lousy at running a maze but it can still mother. But if you even slightly damage the limbic system, it will run a maze with facility but be completely unable to raise pups. It is the intellect that knows the fastest route from here to there but the limbic system, mammalian love, that makes the ride fun. The centipede can think his way into a ditch considering how to run, but the monkey will have all the fun.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

God becomes enraged? As a result of what Satan did?

Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

But you have God being affected by external events. How could an omnipotent God possibly be affected by the actions of another?

You also have the absurdity of Satan trying to prove something to an omniscient being. Presumably, Satan knows that God is omniscient. And knowing that, Satan is going to change God's mind? Prove to God that God was wrong in putting humans #2?

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

Does foreknowledge eliminate emotional reactions to events? Just b/c you know something will happen does not lessen the effect of it. I know that my cat is going to die soon, but just b/c I know that, will it make it any less sad for me. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with emotional reaction.

I think that people have a very simplistic notion of God. They either talk about Him like he is a wish-granting genie, an angry sadistic control freak, or a lovey-dovey white-haired grampa up in the sky. Why is it that people make such a simplistic picture of God, especially the Judeo-Christian God? If you read the Bible, you find an incredibly complex Person, not a 1 dimensional cartoon character.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira
When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

If there is no objective evidence for unicorns, I conclude that there probably are no unicorns.

If there is no objective evidence for Santa Claus, I conclude that there probably is no Santa Claus.

If there is no objective evidence for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite superbeing, I conclude that there probably is no such thing.

You, on the other hand, based on exactly nothing but your own imagination conclude that God exists.

I don't see any parity at all in our two positions.

It doesn't take much imagination to think about existence and the necessity of something outside of time and matter to create a starting point for time itself and matter. As soon as you can present objective proof as to how our universe of time and matter came to be, I will agree with your stance.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: spittledip
It doesn't take much imagination to think about existence and the necessity of something outside of time and matter to create a starting point for time itself and matter. As soon as you can present objective proof as to how our universe of time and matter came to be, I will agree with your stance.

this is actually the best argument I've seen for the existence of "something" in this thread. But, in the past, we have always assigned god like awe to things we don't understand.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: spittledip
It doesn't take much imagination to think about existence and the necessity of something outside of time and matter to create a starting point for time itself and matter. As soon as you can present objective proof as to how our universe of time and matter came to be, I will agree with your stance.

It doesn't take much imagination to think about the bright ball of light in the sky and the necessity for there to be a chariot pulling it from one side to the other every day. Wait, I retract that, it takes an incredibly febrile imagination to summon such an image.

As nearly all of religions' claims about the facts of existence have been steadily pushed back and refuted over the centuries, "facts" which they propagated purely on faith and fought tooth and nail all attempts by science to demonstrate otherwise, they have now retreated to the final nugget, how it all started. And they state with utter certainty the "necessity" of a god to create the universe. Why does there always have to be something supernatural running around for people to feel life has any meaning?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: LunarRay
What I find most alarming about the books of the bible or New Testament in particular is the notion that we have so much Contemporaneous writings about Socrates who lived what.... 400BC or around that time.. and hardly one bit of fully accepted writings about Jesus who lived

That is why I do not just read the bible to get the full story. I read everything from the time regardless of what/if religion it belongs too. A lot of information can be gained by reading other historical documents of the time.

I think one of the reasons we have more from the Greeks is that they were very literate for the time. They kept very detailed records and were centered in a central area. Where as the Israelite moved around quite a bit making things like record keeping and written works much harder to maintain. The other thing is the burning of text by the Romans. They were notorious for burning text of any religion except their own.

I have no doubt Jesus existed. There are too many things that would have to be coincidence for it not to be so. The grave of Joseph has been found proving that the family did exist. Other religions mention him as not the son of God but a teacher or prophet. The timing of the crucification and the governor that was in charge it all lines up.

Yes, of course...
It does puzzle me nonetheless... As I mentioned elsewhere, I went to a Catholic Academy and Jesuit run High School... very much oriented toward the various skyences and we studied the bible and all the relevant other writings from a perspective you'd expect from Jesuits... they ARE a critical thinking lot, usually. That was way back in BC somewhere so stuff has been uncovered since and I've read what I've seen..
It does not reduce one iota my belief in Jesus Christ. However, I was born with a certain type of analytical approach to stuff. And, I question everything except my faith. I am comfortable in doing so as well..
Although my scholarship was to pursue Engineering I soon found how lazy I was and switched to Accounting and developed or sustained my Auditor Mentality through out my life. If I see something that looks like a Duck... quacks like a Duck... I'm pretty apt to deduce it is Moonbeam... er... a Duck.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Shira,
To be a Christian you have to accept the bible as being the word of God. Believing that no part of it can be shown to be untrue. That means the entire bit. It is that simple... I'd doubt any Christian or anyone who believed in God would last long in Carl Sagan's Critical Thinking Class... Nor would most anything contained in the bible be allowed entered as evidence in a court of law to prove anything also contained in the bible. So what have we left... :
A gazillion folks who nonetheless have accepted that God is God and exists. Somewhat less accept that Jesus is the Son of God and God as well.. and so on..
Now how can they accept that in the face of logic and critical thinking procedures and all that... how can they? But they do.
Regarding Jesus, I've no idea what he did until he started his mission at around 30 yrs old... Old enough for family and friends to know him as the carpenter's son and little else. Then off he goes indicating eventually that he is God.. "the Father and I are one"... His Apostles have more recorded reference to them than there are to him. There is no reference to Jesus directly in any of Rome's texts but they do reference him via third party notation. There is a whole host of issues one can raise to advocate against his person and mission on Earth... But, yet he has transcended the entirety of it all.. That in and of itself is beyond belief. How can folks raise their hand and say they Accept Jesus as lord and Savior. It makes no sense on the face of it... and that is where you are looking.

Something else happens to the individual, however, when they do proclaim that oath... They somehow are transformed into someone else... not physically but where it counts... they are different. I know that bit is hard to accept unless you've experienced it... Me thinks the millions who do accept Jesus can't really put to words just what happens to them and I suspect to each it is different in some way or another... but it does occur. Then for them to try they refer to the only viable source they have, the Bible and critics logically tear that and them apart.. they scoff and issue all manner of retort and condimnation... but proudly they stand... and reaffirm their oath... How hard is that to do... Takes a strength of character most would not match.

So at the end of the day, I understand the view from outside but also the strength from within... I can even joke or (hehehehehe) and not care cuz I am that I am. As you are as you are...

I always look for some rational way to explain what looks to be beyond belief. It is just how I am, I guess. So this is where my imagination carries me.

1. I have heard it said by those who claim there is a special knowledge, a secret deeply hidden, that those who are awakened to it, like those who are awake generally speaking, know and recognize each other whereas those who sleep know nothing.

No I'd not make that claim... I can only extrapolate from me. I have not a clue who else if anyone finds a peace that is beyond the beyonds... I assume they do and assume they change. I've seen change in folks but I don't know the depth or reality or cause of it.. I can guess by reading stuff on this very thread... but, no... I can't make other God/person relationships out to be more than speculation on my part.

2. I have heard that the value of a man is to be found in his ideals. The notion that there exists a God of Love strikes me as one of the highest ideals imaginable.

I'd say that is true no matter what faith issue or faith absence is driving it. I have not a clue as to the variety of methods to reach God... Last year the Jesuit science adviser to the Pope said it was ok to believe in life on other planets and that they may be far more advanced... I'd wager that they too have an approach to God that differs from Earther's ones proportional to the variance in the mind capability of they and we.

3. I have a sense that religious ideals go hand and hand with empathy and good will to man in general, so that those who are awake may care for the salvation of humanity.

I think non believers have equal potential to display in an honest manner the attributes you mention... I think it is a human quality that all possess. I think further, my reality in my faith is personal and for me... Anything that changes vis a vis my good will and empathy may be the result of my faith but I think I've always been as I am in that regard. Not that that means I have empathy or good will at all... but, rather, what there is has been the same all along

4. I believe also that the Jews brought the law of God and then got stuck believing that all one had to do was obey the law to be saved, when being saved is about becoming God conscious not obedient to externals. Also self hate, the devil himself, used the law to punish and extract hate and revenge, just as we see today with those focused on punishing the evil. They want to fancy themselves good and saved.

I'm sure the devil exists cuz God said so or is quoted as such and I figure he'd not lie. I've not a clue as to the Jew or any other faith holder. I don't much care actually to what extent other persons of faith vary with mine because I figure there are more paths to the well than one and I don't think an evaluation of theirs benefits mine or me.

5. So maybe these wise men numbering many more than three knowing themselves and their sleeping fellows proposed to work for man's spiritual evolution over a very long period of time. First they would bring the law and then forgiveness for sin and then the reconciliation of the two and the final monotheistic religion and they themselves, as they always are, would stay hidden working behind the scenes.

I think the process you've detailed above is reasonable but surely not mine. More like missionary folks, It seems. Although, being from the background I have might indicate that it was a fait accompli to have Christianity as my choice - but it was not - and be all caught up in trying to save the world etc.. I've no more interest in that than oh... eating eels.

Aside from the bolded bits above, I'd comment that there are all sorts of systematic approaches to finding what one looks for regarding faith. Some latch on to what seems 'their way'... and after awhile move to another way... or none at all.. I have said from the start that I think folks are preordained or predisposed to find comfort in something and they search for that until they find it.. Some like the idea of being Agnostic or Baptist, Jewish or Muslim, Hindu or Catholic, etc... they accept something cuz it makes sense to them. It makes them feel good... I presume... What may be your way might seem totally foreign to my way but the mind is the determiner of that.. you are your own jury as I am mine... I decide cuz I can and so can you...

Your comments seem to indicate, at least to me, you're trying to find the TRUTH and which faith is the TRUE faith... I can't help there... no one can. Only you and you alone can determine TRUTH as it applies to you... but that is because I accept that Truth is in the eye of the beholder... as far as God goes... I think your approach ought to be to know who you are and what environment might make you feel like it is the right one for you... what makes sense to you... then go for it... OR simply accept that which you've already stated... That God is within us ... we are God... and as such we are filled with love and empathy and all that good stuff... I've no problem with saying God is within me... and perhaps... just maybe that condition makes me a better person... doubt it... beings I'm a wise ass.. but ok.. maybe Moonbeam would be a nicer... (can't imagine that) person or already is...

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: jonks
http://www.tampabay.com/incomi...s-in-jerusalem/1029820

[FL Gov] Crist told a group of real estate agents Friday that he's had prayer notes placed in the Western Wall in Jerusalem each year and no major storms have hit Florida.


*********

So my question is this: why did Crist kill that 7 year old girl who drowned in Maine?

I don't see how anyone is shocked at govt when we elect leaders who by their own admission must be either superstitious fools or pandering hypocrites.

I used to wear an elephant hunter's hat when gardening to keep the elephants out of my garden and, by God, it always worked.

I'm told it works well in all places except Africa and India... for some dang reason that I don't know..

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: jonks
http://www.tampabay.com/incomi...s-in-jerusalem/1029820

[FL Gov] Crist told a group of real estate agents Friday that he's had prayer notes placed in the Western Wall in Jerusalem each year and no major storms have hit Florida.


*********

So my question is this: why did Crist kill that 7 year old girl who drowned in Maine?

I don't see how anyone is shocked at govt when we elect leaders who by their own admission must be either superstitious fools or pandering hypocrites.

I used to wear an elephant hunter's hat when gardening to keep the elephants out of my garden and, by God, it always worked.

I'm told it works well in all places except Africa and India... for some dang reason that I don't know..

To quote xkcd,

1: I used to think correlation implied causation, but then I took a class, and now I don't think that.
2: So the class helped.
1: Not necessarily.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: jonks
To quote xkcd,

1: I used to think correlation implied causation, but then I took a class, and now I don't think that.
2: So the class helped.
1: Not necessarily.

but they will just think that your logic is a trick of the devil so it does not matter. There is no way some guy who thinks he is going to be tortured for eternity in hell for not believing is going to let you challenge his faith. Honestly why would we want to challenge that persons faith? I don't want people living in that kind of fear their entire lives. Let them believe.

 

[imported_inspire]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
I'm not sure about your background in math, but what you say here is absolutely false. Axioms are not just 'taken for granted.' They are self verifying, because their denial produces absurdities that are inconsistent with reality. They are not 'less established than the concept of monotheism.' In fact, if you were to deny these axioms, you would not be able to even make an argument, which you are attempting to do now. Or your arguments would contain absurdities such as: A and not A. So you just contradicted yourself in an epic way.

No, it's not false - what I said is correct. What structure defines a contradiction? Logic. Logic has rules - which we take for granted. Were it not for these rules, not only would I not be able to construct an arguement, but you would not be able to contradict it. That was my point - which you failed to grasp. Historically speaking, the concepts of monotheism HAVE been around longer than much of those in geometry.

Axioms are only givens under pain of absurdity. They are taken for 'granted' only in the sense that anyone who denied them would be considered a babbling fool, incapable of any rational argument.

Yes, well - Hilbert made quite a compelling arguement, and we now have elliptic and hyperbolic geometries in the repetoire of modern knowledge because he chose not to accept the Euclidean parallel Postulate.

I do not dismiss god categorically either. Nor do I dismiss categorically space aliens. In this way I am an agnostic atheist. What I denounce is a positive claim to some unknown force or god that is controlling the universe
But the huge error you are making is that it should be the other way around. Instead of having a positive belief in god and then not changing your mind until it is proven that god doesn't exist, you should assume god does not exist and then change your mind once it is shown that it does. This is the same process applied to all other imaginary constructs.

Just because it is done that way with other things does not necessitate that it should be so in this. As a matter of fact, the Reductio Ad Absurdam logical approach does quite the opposite - it assumes the opposite of what it sets out to prove and continues in that assumption until it can draw out an explicit contradiction. This approach is rampant in all sciences, even today. I think this is just the spot where we agree to disagree.

 

[LunarRay]

God was about to kick the Devil out of heaven for attempting a coup e'tat. The Devil now powerless asked for some slack given he'd have to do all matter of evil stuff on earth (and elsewhere I presume) and with out any tools he'd be a failure and the tee times at the Heavenly Augusta would be outlandish... so God thought a bit and said.. "Ok... here you go... I call this Logic... take this and see what you can catch"...

Moonbeam made me do it... really..

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira
When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

If there is no objective evidence for unicorns, I conclude that there probably are no unicorns.

If there is no objective evidence for Santa Claus, I conclude that there probably is no Santa Claus.

If there is no objective evidence for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite superbeing, I conclude that there probably is no such thing.

You, on the other hand, based on exactly nothing but your own imagination conclude that God exists.

I don't see any parity at all in our two positions.

It doesn't take much imagination to think about existence and the necessity of something outside of time and matter to create a starting point for time itself and matter. As soon as you can present objective proof as to how our universe of time and matter came to be, I will agree with your stance.

Think about what you're saying: If science doesn't have complete proof of one or another specific mechanism that brought the present universe into existence, you say, "It must be God."

How come, in the absence of a particular "proven" mechanism that causes, say, the disease ALS, you don't also say, "It must be God?" How about the question of what, precisely dark matter is and how it can possibly be the case that something undetectable (so far) by conventional means nevertheless has a powerful gravitational effect on conventional matter? Absent "proof" of what dark matter is, do you say, "It must be God" playing mischief out there in the cosmos?

You say you want "proof." Well, no theory is every proved. The most we can say about any scientific theory is that the weight of evidence is extremely strong. But that won't be good enough for true believers. They'll ALWAYS shout down strong, objective, scientific evidence that challenges their faith-based explanations. The origins of humanity is a perfect example of faith shouting down science. The origins of the universe will certainly be another.

This notion of attributing to God things that we can't yet fully explain or understand is just more evidence of the feebleness of the religious mind. Welcome to the church of the God of the Gaps.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Shira,
To be a Christian you have to accept the bible as being the word of God. Believing that no part of it can be shown to be untrue. That means the entire bit. It is that simple... I'd doubt any Christian or anyone who believed in God would last long in Carl Sagan's Critical Thinking Class... Nor would most anything contained in the bible be allowed entered as evidence in a court of law to prove anything also contained in the bible. So what have we left... :
A gazillion folks who nonetheless have accepted that God is God and exists. Somewhat less accept that Jesus is the Son of God and God as well.. and so on..
Now how can they accept that in the face of logic and critical thinking procedures and all that... how can they? But they do.
Regarding Jesus, I've no idea what he did until he started his mission at around 30 yrs old... Old enough for family and friends to know him as the carpenter's son and little else. Then off he goes indicating eventually that he is God.. "the Father and I are one"... His Apostles have more recorded reference to them than there are to him. There is no reference to Jesus directly in any of Rome's texts but they do reference him via third party notation. There is a whole host of issues one can raise to advocate against his person and mission on Earth... But, yet he has transcended the entirety of it all.. That in and of itself is beyond belief. How can folks raise their hand and say they Accept Jesus as lord and Savior. It makes no sense on the face of it... and that is where you are looking.

Something else happens to the individual, however, when they do proclaim that oath... They somehow are transformed into someone else... not physically but where it counts... they are different. I know that bit is hard to accept unless you've experienced it... Me thinks the millions who do accept Jesus can't really put to words just what happens to them and I suspect to each it is different in some way or another... but it does occur. Then for them to try they refer to the only viable source they have, the Bible and critics logically tear that and them apart.. they scoff and issue all manner of retort and condimnation... but proudly they stand... and reaffirm their oath... How hard is that to do... Takes a strength of character most would not match.

So at the end of the day, I understand the view from outside but also the strength from within... I can even joke or (hehehehehe) and not care cuz I am that I am. As you are as you are...

I always look for some rational way to explain what looks to be beyond belief. It is just how I am, I guess. So this is where my imagination carries me.

1. I have heard it said by those who claim there is a special knowledge, a secret deeply hidden, that those who are awakened to it, like those who are awake generally speaking, know and recognize each other whereas those who sleep know nothing.

No I'd not make that claim... I can only extrapolate from me. I have not a clue who else if anyone finds a peace that is beyond the beyonds... I assume they do and assume they change. I've seen change in folks but I don't know the depth or reality or cause of it.. I can guess by reading stuff on this very thread... but, no... I can't make other God/person relationships out to be more than speculation on my part.

2. I have heard that the value of a man is to be found in his ideals. The notion that there exists a God of Love strikes me as one of the highest ideals imaginable.

I'd say that is true no matter what faith issue or faith absence is driving it. I have not a clue as to the variety of methods to reach God... Last year the Jesuit science adviser to the Pope said it was ok to believe in life on other planets and that they may be far more advanced... I'd wager that they too have an approach to God that differs from Earther's ones proportional to the variance in the mind capability of they and we.

3. I have a sense that religious ideals go hand and hand with empathy and good will to man in general, so that those who are awake may care for the salvation of humanity.

I think non believers have equal potential to display in an honest manner the attributes you mention... I think it is a human quality that all possess. I think further, my reality in my faith is personal and for me... Anything that changes vis a vis my good will and empathy may be the result of my faith but I think I've always been as I am in that regard. Not that that means I have empathy or good will at all... but, rather, what there is has been the same all along

4. I believe also that the Jews brought the law of God and then got stuck believing that all one had to do was obey the law to be saved, when being saved is about becoming God conscious not obedient to externals. Also self hate, the devil himself, used the law to punish and extract hate and revenge, just as we see today with those focused on punishing the evil. They want to fancy themselves good and saved.

I'm sure the devil exists cuz God said so or is quoted as such and I figure he'd not lie. I've not a clue as to the Jew or any other faith holder. I don't much care actually to what extent other persons of faith vary with mine because I figure there are more paths to the well than one and I don't think an evaluation of theirs benefits mine or me.

5. So maybe these wise men numbering many more than three knowing themselves and their sleeping fellows proposed to work for man's spiritual evolution over a very long period of time. First they would bring the law and then forgiveness for sin and then the reconciliation of the two and the final monotheistic religion and they themselves, as they always are, would stay hidden working behind the scenes.

I think the process you've detailed above is reasonable but surely not mine. More like missionary folks, It seems. Although, being from the background I have might indicate that it was a fait accompli to have Christianity as my choice - but it was not - and be all caught up in trying to save the world etc.. I've no more interest in that than oh... eating eels.

Aside from the bolded bits above, I'd comment that there are all sorts of systematic approaches to finding what one looks for regarding faith. Some latch on to what seems 'their way'... and after awhile move to another way... or none at all.. I have said from the start that I think folks are preordained or predisposed to find comfort in something and they search for that until they find it.. Some like the idea of being Agnostic or Baptist, Jewish or Muslim, Hindu or Catholic, etc... they accept something cuz it makes sense to them. It makes them feel good... I presume... What may be your way might seem totally foreign to my way but the mind is the determiner of that.. you are your own jury as I am mine... I decide cuz I can and so can you...

Your comments seem to indicate, at least to me, you're trying to find the TRUTH and which faith is the TRUE faith... I can't help there... no one can. Only you and you alone can determine TRUTH as it applies to you... but that is because I accept that Truth is in the eye of the beholder... as far as God goes... I think your approach ought to be to know who you are and what environment might make you feel like it is the right one for you... what makes sense to you... then go for it... OR simply accept that which you've already stated... That God is within us ... we are God... and as such we are filled with love and empathy and all that good stuff... I've no problem with saying God is within me... and perhaps... just maybe that condition makes me a better person... doubt it... beings I'm a wise ass.. but ok.. maybe Moonbeam would be a nicer... (can't imagine that) person or already is...

I am persuaded by the story of the blind men and the elephant. I believe that the great world religions of trunk leg ear tail and tusk all really worship an elephant although they don't know it. I believe there is one truth and it covers all. They are all true but not true exactly as each thinks. And I believe that those who cross the bridge that is religion have no more real use for it. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

The essential problem of modern life for me is the question of whether religion is dying or should. We know that religion is the source of tremendous madness and strife in the world, all these folk who know these millions of different only truths. The greatest advertisement against religion, in my opinion is the religious. Some of them are truly hideous. But then so was Stalin and Mao, enlightened mines free from religious belief, hehe. I am persuaded that truth exists can be argued for and is real, that man is a spiritual being and that God is a projection of his true nature. Religion can't reach the atheist and atheism scares the religions. I think both are right and both are wrong. I think the job of the religious is not to believe but to become and the job of the atheists is not to doubt but to understand that the religions they don't believe don't exist and are not the spiritual realization that was intended. I believe that faith that does not open the door to love is useless and the doubt that does not open that door, empty. There is only joy and love ego death and spiritual awakening as much as we can manage.

 

[LunarRay]

Moonbeam said:
"I am persuaded by the story of the blind men and the elephant. I believe that the great world religions of trunk leg ear tail and tusk all really worship an elephant although they don't know it. I believe there is one truth and it covers all. They are all true but not true exactly as each thinks. And I believe that those who cross the bridge that is religion have no more real use for it. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

The essential problem of modern life for me is the question of whether religion is dying or should. We know that religion is the source of tremendous madness and strife in the world, all these folk who know these millions of different only truths. The greatest advertisement against religion, in my opinion is the religious. Some of them are truly hideous. But then so was Stalin and Mao, enlightened mines free from religious belief, hehe. I am persuaded that truth exists can be argued for and is real, that man is a spiritual being and that God is a projection of his true nature. Religion can't reach the atheist and atheism scares the religions. I think both are right and both are wrong. I think the job of the religious is not to believe but to become and the job of the atheists is not to doubt but to understand that the religions they don't believe don't exist and are not the spiritual realization that was intended. I believe that faith that does not open the door to love is useless and the doubt that does not open that door, empty. There is only joy and love ego death and spiritual awakening as much as we can manage. "

I'm not sure the (the bolded bit) isn't all that there is either... IF you're filled with joy it occurs to me something causes that... Love maybe or ego death and maybe cuz of spiritual awakening... not sure at all..

A newspaperman was interviewing Mulla Nasrudin on his 105th birthday. He noticed that the Mulla was wearing a rabbit's foot on his key chain. "You don't mean to tell me," said the newspaperman, "that a man of your experience still believes in that old and childish superstition? " "Of course not," said Nasrudin, "But my wife tells me that it brings me luck whether I believe in it or not"


I'd agree... The God of the Jew and Islam is the same one.. The Christians have added a few bits to it all but also extra reading material to support it..
Who knows... I think for the Jew that believes in a particular way must follow that or they fail to comply with their own belief.. same with the Muslim and Christian... I think even the folks who had all sorts of special activity gods had belief... that it ain't the same as mine don't make mine better or the truth versus a lie... I say that cuz I can't imagine a God who'd not love each creature that ever populated this planet and what ever other life he created as well... IF we are all his creation then we are.. even the eel and the tree... all from God... Shira's Dark Energy included....

I think Organized Religion devolves into a fight for their god over another's... The Catholic says only the Catholic's get to heaven... or that used to be the party line while Islam calls them infidels or some sects do. I firmly believe that that fewer obstacles between me and God the better... I don't go to a church... well cept for funerals.. and mainly only cuz if you don't go to someone's funeral they won't come to yours...

 

[Orignal Earl]

If Obama is the son of God I wanna see him turn my water into wine

sorry wrong thread

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: jonks
To quote xkcd,

1: I used to think correlation implied causation, but then I took a class, and now I don't think that.
2: So the class helped.
1: Not necessarily.

but they will just think that your logic is a trick of the devil so it does not matter. There is no way some guy who thinks he is going to be tortured for eternity in hell for not believing is going to let you challenge his faith. Honestly why would we want to challenge that persons faith? I don't want people living in that kind of fear their entire lives. Let them believe.

Believe me when I tell you EVERY believer's faith is tested. No matter what the religion. Also believe me when I tell you someone's opinion on the internet doesnt really pose the kind of faith breaking challenge you may think it does. It's like a fly on your shoulder.