On Atheism vs. Christianity

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
As an atheist, why does a person bother living?

Because we exist.

If a scientific, evolution-based reason is required, there is still an innate push to serve a greater master built into those who've never heard of religion before: The instinctive draw to help the human race survive and flourish.

I'm not sure why you're equating athiesm to hedonism - there's really no reason one should lead to the other. And even if you do choose to reject a higher power and live like a hedonist, there's no shame in that. They could even be right and all religions wrong: Maybe the ultimate pursuit in life is pleasure.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The only entity ascribing blame was Cerpin Taxt.

Where did this happen? Since when is a prescriptive statement tantamount to a declaration of blame?

You started it.

Nuh-uh. He hit me first! I'm telling Mom!

You called Skoorb an Argumentum ad hominem hominid when he was only being prescriptive.

That was a compliment.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Lack of reading comprehension... that's cute. From my reading of what you wrote, you believe that "people who... truly have an atheistic view of the world" believe that this world is "one in which a human life holds no meaning at all." But I think you've got your definitions mixed up. Atheism is a contention that there are no Gods. That's it. To extrapolate from that that in atheism human life holds no meaning is flat-out wrong. There can be meaning in human existence without the belief in a deity or deities. Perhaps when you have fully considered this point, you'll be better equipped to make a coherent argument. At the moment, you've redefined atheism to suit your argument. But it doesn't work that way.

Of course I'm stating it in ways an atheist might not and it's made some people upset, so let me re-ask:

As an atheist, why does a person bother living? I see no reason they live other than their survival instinct and neurons telling them that eating and sex are fun, so it's what they do. Although they believe in nothing after their life, they still for some strange reason want to "do good" or leave a positive impression on the globe, even if in time it will disappear. Given the age of the planet and that humanity has existed for and will exist for a pimple on time's actual ass, I'm not sure why these people hold life in much high regard, since clearly the rest of the universe doesn't, and it will get its way in the end, not them.

I understand your contention to be of the, "There is no morality outside of religion," kind. No one is taking you seriously because this idea is a few centuries obsolete.

For more information on secularism, read about The Enlightenment.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

As an atheist, why does a person bother living?

As an atheist, who gives a flying fsck? Start with the existential reality that we're here. We can spend all the time we have until we pollute or nuke each other into oblivion to ponder why or figure out how to avoid doing ourselves in.

Meanwhile, we ARE here, and centuries of observation inform us that general concepts of good and evil exist across most human societies, independent of any particular philosophy, theology or other belief systems.

AFIC, religion is just another political power structure, one based on fear and ignorance. The "Ten Commandments" (take your choice of versions from various dogma sets) are a set of rules to keep a microcosm from self-destructing while running around the desert, and it's all based on the theory of "bad vibes." :shocked:

Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't hit on your buddy's SO. Why? It causes bad vibes.

Take care of your parents. Why? They took care of you when you were too little to do it for yourself. Now, it's your turn to repay the favor. Anything else = bad vibes.

Remember the sabbath. Why? Human beings burn out. When they do, they get mean and nasty. In other words, bad vibes.

Then, there's the enforcer. As a small band running around the Sinai, there wasn't a lot of spare manpower to enforce these rules so when the uneducated masses ask why they should obey them, the leader tells them, GOD SAID SO! and the crowd says, "HOLY SHIT! Guess we better." :Q

Religion is just a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to resolve questions about the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptible answer. :light:

Meanwhile, if more people spent more time trying to get things right in this life, they'd have far less to worry about in any supposed or imagined "next" life. :thumbsup:

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Of course I'm stating it in ways an atheist might not and it's made some people upset, so let me re-ask:

As an atheist, why does a person bother living? I see no reason they live other than their survival instinct and neurons telling them that eating and sex are fun, so it's what they do. Although they believe in nothing after their life, they still for some strange reason want to "do good" or leave a positive impression on the globe, even if in time it will disappear. Given the age of the planet and that humanity has existed for and will exist for a pimple on time's actual ass, I'm not sure why these people hold life in much high regard, since clearly the rest of the universe doesn't, and it will get its way in the end, not them.

OK, I'll bite. Many religions believe that after our lives on this planet, we will experience further lives in Heaven or Hell or Nirvana or Limbo or purgatory or reincarnation, etc. As an atheist (technically an agnostic, but I lack sufficient evidence that makes me believe in the presence of a higher power at this point), I don't believe in these continuations of life. I believe that I will live, I will die, and that will be it. The molecules that have coalesced to form my structure will invariably continue on, but whatever conciousness that makes that collection of molecules "me" will be lost when brain function ceases. I will die. No rebirth. No ascension. No continuation. Nothing.

Now, when one considers that, it seems that the only shot I'll have at life is my current time on this Earth. Seeing as how I have only one opportunity to be alive, I don't want to waste it. I try to live as best I can, being a positive influence on my surroundings, not because I feel it will help me in the afterlife, but because if I have a positive influence on my surroundings, it makes it a better world for me to live in. If my contributions somehow aid people after I am dead, I will have no idea, though I would rather that were the case than not. I don't need to justify my morality through a religion; I get a hedonistic joy out of helping people and living, what I consider, a "good" life.

How would suicide help me in the only shot at life I have? How would raping and murdering help make the world around me a more comfortable place for me to live? Why do you believe atheism must place no value on life merely by placing no value in Gods?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

As an atheist, why does a person bother living?

There are at least as many valid answers to this question as there are atheists.

I see no reason they live other than their survival instinct and neurons telling them that eating and sex are fun, so it's what they do.

I'm not particularly surprised that a person who proffered Pascal's Wager in seriousness has difficulty comprehending such a thing.

Although they believe in nothing after their life

WRONG. FALSE. INCORRECTOMUNDO.

Some atheists may believe this, and prehaps the vast majority, but it does not follow strictly from atheism that one must "believe in nothing after their life."

I am an atheist and I do not believe that.

they still for some strange reason want to "do good" or leave a positive impression on the globe, even if in time it will disappear. Given the age of the planet and that humanity has existed for and will exist for a pimple on time's actual ass, I'm not sure why these people hold life in much high regard, since clearly the rest of the universe doesn't, and it will get its way in the end, not them.

Why is your favorite color your favorite color? Or do you believe that God decides what the best color is?

[/quote]

 

[StageLeft]

I understand your contention to be of the, "There is no morality outside of religion," kind. No one is taking you seriously because this idea is a few centuries obsolete.

It may be obsolete if it's constrained in that argument. Given that there are some moral absolutes constant across all societies (like theft and murder) despite no religious crossover, we could conclude it's either a natural result of humans living together or a deity, formal religion or not.

I have prescribed no religion here. This is more of a picking on atheism than a pro anything else. I find atheism to be based on as much faith as that which it criticizes, for its proponents have to rely on their own faith: faith in themselves and their knowledge (despite all of us being extremely ignorant to varying degrees on most things of the universe), faith in something that has never delivered nor ever even promised to deliver anything more than a finite life followed by infinite end.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
How would suicide help me in the only shot at life I have? How would raping and murdering help make the world around me a more comfortable place for me to live? Why do you believe atheism must place no value on life merely by placing no value in Gods?

The unspoken assumption is that were it not for Daddy threatening to spank them, people like Skoorb would much rather be raping little girls and murdering helpless old people.

You now have one week off to consider that you may not like any part of a philosophy and say so. That's fine. We even allow you to beat up on each other here. What a joy that is for some. What you cannot do is say "Member X is *atheist, religious, black, gay..." and therefore he's a murderer/rapist/child molester or would be if given a chance" Not being dumb "People like Member X" is equivalent, and appeals to sentence construction aren't accepted.

Hayabusa Rider Anandtech Sr. Moderator.

 

[StageLeft]

Now, when one considers that, it seems that the only shot I'll have at life is my current time on this Earth. Seeing as how I have only one opportunity to be alive, I don't want to waste it. I try to live as best I can, being a positive influence on my surroundings, not because I feel it will help me in the afterlife, but because if I have a positive influence on my surroundings, it makes it a better world for me to live in. If my contributions somehow aid people after I am dead, I will have no idea, though I would rather that were the case than not. I don't need to justify my morality through a religion; I get a hedonistic joy out of helping people and living, what I consider, a "good" life.

But this sounds spiritual to me. You are admitting that you would sacrifice portions of your own life, be it through work or whatever, to leave a better world after? I wonder why you think it or why it's important. Like you said, when you're gone you won't know either way what your impact had, so why do you in essence hold what comes after you in some ways to be more important than what comes during you?

Some atheists may believe this, and prehaps the vast majority, but it does not follow strictly from atheism that one must "believe in nothing after their life."

What can possibly be anything for you after you die? Nothing based in science, surely.

Why is your favorite color your favorite color? Or do you believe that God decides what the best color is?

I have no idea!

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
How would suicide help me in the only shot at life I have? How would raping and murdering help make the world around me a more comfortable place for me to live? Why do you believe atheism must place no value on life merely by placing no value in Gods?

The unspoken assumption is that were it not for Daddy threatening to spank them, people like Skoorb would much rather be raping little girls and murdering helpless old people.

I wonder if now it's time to let Atreus have his thread back.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The only entity ascribing blame was Cerpin Taxt.

Where did this happen? Since when is a prescriptive statement tantamount to a declaration of blame?

You started it.

Nuh-uh. He hit me first! I'm telling Mom!

You called Skoorb an Argumentum ad hominem hominid when he was only being prescriptive.

That was a compliment.

And I was being prescriptive.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Now, when one considers that, it seems that the only shot I'll have at life is my current time on this Earth. Seeing as how I have only one opportunity to be alive, I don't want to waste it. I try to live as best I can, being a positive influence on my surroundings, not because I feel it will help me in the afterlife, but because if I have a positive influence on my surroundings, it makes it a better world for me to live in. If my contributions somehow aid people after I am dead, I will have no idea, though I would rather that were the case than not. I don't need to justify my morality through a religion; I get a hedonistic joy out of helping people and living, what I consider, a "good" life.

But this sounds spiritual to me. You are admitting that you would sacrifice portions of your own life, be it through work or whatever, to leave a better world after? I wonder why you think it or why it's important. Like you said, when you're gone you won't know either way what your impact had, so why do you in essence hold what comes after you in some ways to be more important than what comes during you?

That's not quite what I was getting at; I don't hold that what comes after me is more important than what comes while I'm alive. If my contributions happen to make the world a better place after I die, great. But really, I'm primarily concerned with making the world a better place because it will be a better environment for me to live in during my time on the planet. If I die and the nukes start falling, that's a stroke of bad luck, but it will no longer affect me in any conceivable way.

As for spirituality... well, that can exist independent of God, can't it? Buddhists are very spiritual people, but it's not a theistic religion. Since spirituality can be divorced from believing in a deity, you can, by definition, have deeply spiritual atheists. Does that make them bad atheists?

 

[soulcougher73]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I am not an atheist.

I don't see how not being an atheist should prevent one from shooting oneself in the head. Especially since it is highly probable that an atheist would believe in permanent everlasting death, while a theist would probably believe in some ascension to heaven.

The point being, why not, it doesn't matter anyway, it's all just chemicals. A true atheist would never bother with life because it holds no meaning for them. When they are gone their family may cry but their family will die eventually and they will be forgotten and meaningless, as meaningless as an ant in a hill.

:roll: My Sarcasm Meter must be broken.

Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

Enjoying life and not believing in a God are two seperate things. Im an Anthiest but i love life. I would never think of killing myself.

 

[darkhorror]

I find it sad is that you need god to make your life meaningful. Since you wonder why people who don't believe in god don't just kill themselves, is all that's stoping you from killing yourself? How about instead just enjoy your time alive and the people around you.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

So why don't the cat and the bee kill themselves? Why do they bother with life?

Because they are too stupid to know any better. They are merely a chemical computer going through the motions, reacting upon the variables fed into them. They have some imprint in the code that tells them they ought to continue to live and avoid dying, and so they do. A human, able to think upon their state, has this natural imprint, too, but if they really believe what they say as an atheist they ought to realize how pitiful it makes them to be subservient to it, living for hedonism.

Just because you can't handle a world in which we only live for 'hedonism', that we are just a slave to chemical responses, doesn't mean I can't. And what is more pitiful? My belief that we live to satisfy our biological hedonism, or your belief that we live strictly because we have a carrot dangled in front of our face? That's like a guy who does charity because he gets paid criticisizing a guy who does charity because it gives them a natural good feeling.

I'd say the best atheists in this thread are the barbarians mentioned earlier in the Sudan. Now those people who propagate that truly have an atheistic view of the world, one in which a human life holds no meaning at all.

Just because a human life holds no meaning to the universe, doesn't mean I don't still have the basic desire for my species survival. Have you seen animals that live in packs? Does that mean they believe in God?

It's funny how arrogant humans are. For some reason our existence is so much more important than that of a monkey. Get over yourself.

Is it not? Is it worth no more than a bee's? Go and play in traffic, when a car hits you and die wen can just say it meant nothing more than when I ran over a squirrel on my bicycle. Get over yourself.

I am over myself. I know my life doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. That doesn't mean like any other creature I am not going to protect it. Think about the ridiculous dichotomy you are suggesting. Either a) EVERYTHING was created specifically for you/I (as we are God's chosen people, and the universe was created for us); or b) We should go try to kill ourselves as quickly as possible. Let's hope no other animal that develops sentience comes knocking on your door.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Of course I'm stating it in ways an atheist might not and it's made some people upset, so let me re-ask:

As an atheist, why does a person bother living?

Because life for the most part is rather enjoyable.

I see no reason they live other than their survival instinct and neurons telling them that eating and sex are fun, so it's what they do.

That's because you're blinded by a silly belief .

Although they believe in nothing after their life, they still for some strange reason want to "do good" or leave a positive impression on the globe, even if in time it will disappear.

I'm not worried about leaving a lasting impression on the world as most people aren't whether they be religious or not.

Given the age of the planet and that humanity has existed for and will exist for a pimple on time's actual ass, I'm not sure why these people hold life in much high regard, since clearly the rest of the universe doesn't, and it will get its way in the end, not them.

And it's any different for you

Because people value things other than the permanence of their actions. As I mentioned before, some things in life feel good. Death (presumably) is nothingness. People rationally choose the possibility of feeling good over the certainty of feeling nothing. It's not really that complicated.

There you answered your own questions.

I don't know about you but I'd rather have nothingness at the end of life than spending eternity around a bunch Holy Rollers, Fundies and Religious whackjobs. Sure there'd be normal souls but the nutjobs would be there too. Come to think of it that'd be my description of hell if I believed there was such a thing.

 

[soulcougher73]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

Until now I never realized that you were an idiot. Man am I shocked.:shocked:

Im with Red Dawn on this one. You are making no sense lol

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: soulcougher73

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

Until now I never realized that you were an idiot. Man am I shocked.:shocked:

Im with Red Dawn on this one. You are making no sense lol

Well we must cut him some slack, he doesn't have much to work with and obviously he's winging it.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Mods, I figured this was the best place to make such a thread, as we've had similar threads here before.

I've noticed in my discussions with atheists that a particular point they make is this: That a good and loving God would not subject his creations to pain, suffering, death, and the worst that the world can do to us. Therefore, even if a God does exist, he isn't the benevolent one that Christians believe in.

The problem of pain has been written on in volumes which could stack to the moon. What I really want to know about is its philosophical opposite: the problem of pleasure.

Why is sex fun? Surely, pleasure is not a prerequisite to procreation, as in the cases of the vast majority of other species. Why do we enjoy eating? Why do we enjoy looking at beautiful things? In other words, in a world which is ultimately meaningless, why does pleasure exist?

It seems to be the philosophical equivalent to Atheists to what the problem of pain is for Christians.

I haven't gone through this thread, and I don't know if the answer I'm about to offer has been offered (if is has, please disregard). But the answer is simplicity itself: If pleasure is associated with an act, it increases the chance that we'll engage in the act. The fact that the act of mating is extremely pleasurable induces us to mate and increases the chances that the species will survive.

Beauty: A simple example is a man finding a woman beautiful. Again, the characteristics that we associate with beauty all correlate with fecundity (a breast-waist-hip ratio that indicates health and the ability to give birth to offspring; symmetry of features which correlate with fitness; a youthful appearance). Again, mankind's appreciation of and attraction to beauty (and the urge to mate with those we find beautiful) is associated with the survival of the species.

It's extremely easy to understand how evolution via natural selection would lead to the pleasure of sex and the attraction to certain physical characteristics. No need for a God.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Skoorb

As an atheist, why does a person bother living?

As an atheist, who gives a flying fsck? Start with the existential reality that we're here. We can spend all the time we have until we pollute or nuke each other into oblivion to ponder why or figure out how to avoid doing ourselves in.

Meanwhile, we ARE here, and centuries of observation inform us that general concepts of good and evil exist across most human societies, independent of any particular philosophy, theology or other belief systems.

AFIC, religion is just another political power structure, one based on fear and ignorance. The "Ten Commandments" (take your choice of versions from various dogma sets) are a set of rules to keep a microcosm from self-destructing while running around the desert, and it's all based on the theory of "bad vibes." :shocked:

Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't hit on your buddy's SO. Why? It causes bad vibes.

Take care of your parents. Why? They took care of you when you were too little to do it for yourself. Now, it's your turn to repay the favor. Anything else = bad vibes.

Remember the sabbath. Why? Human beings burn out. When they do, they get mean and nasty. In other words, bad vibes.

Then, there's the enforcer. As a small band running around the Sinai, there wasn't a lot of spare manpower to enforce these rules so when the uneducated masses ask why they should obey them, the leader tells them, GOD SAID SO! and the crowd says, "HOLY SHIT! Guess we better." :Q

Religion is just a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to resolve questions about the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptible answer. :light:

Meanwhile, if more people spent more time trying to get things right in this life, they'd have far less to worry about in any supposed or imagined "next" life. :thumbsup:

And this is why I love and respect Harvey. His mind. He has such a fine one.

Personally, I believe in divinity (though not necessarily in a corporeal and omnipotent authority figure, especially a vengeful and capricious one), but I'll take a considered atheist over a bliss ninny or a mindless sectarian dogma dispenser any day of the week. :thumbsup:

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: soulcougher73

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

Until now I never realized that you were an idiot. Man am I shocked.:shocked:

Im with Red Dawn on this one. You are making no sense lol

Well we must cut him some slack, he doesn't have much to work with and obviously he's winging it.

And this is why Red is on my list of people I take seriously, too. He often gets to the very heart of a matter in record time and with amazing economy of words. :thumbsup:

 

[soulcougher73]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: daishi5

Originally posted by: n yusef
Skoorb et al,

Do you have a college degree? If so, how did you make it through at least fifteen years of schooling without learning about nonreligious morality?

Hmmm, I am getting very close to graduating, and I have never had any course cover that, nor do I have any courses in the future that will cover that. I also doubt that I will cover that in any further education, so I think it might be normal not to cover that. However, that looks like some interesting reading.

The principle is very simple: Murder is wrong, not because a god says so, but because someone was killed. Theft is wrong, not because a god says so, but because someone was stolen from. A liberal arts education crystallized my beliefs, but the foundation is inherent to any secular society, and (I had assumed) to the psyche of its members.

Exactly. I dont need some God to tell me these things are wrong. Its common sense.

 

[soulcougher73]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Of course I'm stating it in ways an atheist might not and it's made some people upset, so let me re-ask:

As an atheist, why does a person bother living? I see no reason they live other than their survival instinct and neurons telling them that eating and sex are fun, so it's what they do. Although they believe in nothing after their life, they still for some strange reason want to "do good" or leave a positive impression on the globe, even if in time it will disappear. Given the age of the planet and that humanity has existed for and will exist for a pimple on time's actual ass, I'm not sure why these people hold life in much high regard, since clearly the rest of the universe doesn't, and it will get its way in the end, not them.

OK, I'll bite. Many religions believe that after our lives on this planet, we will experience further lives in Heaven or Hell or Nirvana or Limbo or purgatory or reincarnation, etc. As an atheist (technically an agnostic, but I lack sufficient evidence that makes me believe in the presence of a higher power at this point), I don't believe in these continuations of life. I believe that I will live, I will die, and that will be it. The molecules that have coalesced to form my structure will invariably continue on, but whatever conciousness that makes that collection of molecules "me" will be lost when brain function ceases. I will die. No rebirth. No ascension. No continuation. Nothing.

Now, when one considers that, it seems that the only shot I'll have at life is my current time on this Earth. Seeing as how I have only one opportunity to be alive, I don't want to waste it. I try to live as best I can, being a positive influence on my surroundings, not because I feel it will help me in the afterlife, but because if I have a positive influence on my surroundings, it makes it a better world for me to live in. If my contributions somehow aid people after I am dead, I will have no idea, though I would rather that were the case than not. I don't need to justify my morality through a religion; I get a hedonistic joy out of helping people and living, what I consider, a "good" life.

How would suicide help me in the only shot at life I have? How would raping and murdering help make the world around me a more comfortable place for me to live? Why do you believe atheism must place no value on life merely by placing no value in Gods?

Very well put.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Why is sex fun? Surely, pleasure is not a prerequisite to procreation, as in the cases of the vast majority of other species. Why do we enjoy eating? Why do we enjoy looking at beautiful things? In other words, in a world which is ultimately meaningless, why does pleasure exist?

Humans evolved to prefer activities that insure their survival. However, in addition to that, humans evolved with an extremely flexible capacity to process information: the human brain. A side effect of the human brain evolving is the capacity to enjoy higher, more complex aesthetic stimuli. In this way human evolution 'overshot' the raw intelligence required to survive in the wild. There is absolutely nothing supernatural about this.

It seems to be the philosophical equivalent to Atheists to what the problem of pain is for Christians.

Epic fail on logic.

Atheists make no positive claims about the way the universe works outside of scientific discovery and as I explained above, there is nothing supernatural about humans evolving to enjoy higher order pleasures.

Christians on the other hand believe in supernatural events such as the ressurrection of Christ with 0 scientific evidence, but rather the Bible as their 'proof.' There is not a single shred of philosophical equivalence going on here.

The purpose of this topic is to point out the fallacy I think is inherent in challenging Christians on the basis that pain implies something meaner than a loving God.

It seems to me that pain and pleasure must play by the same rules. That is, if pleasure is part of evolution, then pain must be too. Yet many atheists only question the significance of pain, and typically ignore pleasure.

In other words, if pain is proof that God, even if he exists, is not a nice guy, then what is pleasure proof of?

Again, this is not so much a discussion seeking to establish God's existence. It's meant to debunk the Pain argument. (Hey, at least I'm honest.) Ultimately, I don't think pain or pleasure can be used to establish anything conclusively indicating God's existence or non-existence.

Nothing can "establish conclusively" God's existence or non-existence. It's a matter of faith.

All you need to know about people's belief in God is that the same human mind that's capable of believing in the supernatural is also capable of believing that the Obama health plan creates death panels.

No amount of debate is going to change irrational minds.

 

[JSt0rm]

I'm not understanding you. I'm an atheist and its not because of the existence of pain. Pain is a good thing, for instance if your arm is on fire you will put it out. You know to do this because of the information that traveled up your arm and into your brain.