On Atheism vs. Christianity

[Atheus]

It always scares me when religeous people claim it's only the threat of punishment by God which keeps them from comitting horrible crimes, as if there's nothing wrong with rape, murder, etc, in themselves. What if these people suddenly lose their faith in whatever creature they believe controls them? Will they just go nuts and kill their families or what?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I understand your contention to be of the, "There is no morality outside of religion," kind. No one is taking you seriously because this idea is a few centuries obsolete.

It may be obsolete if it's constrained in that argument. Given that there are some moral absolutes constant across all societies (like theft and murder) despite no religious crossover, we could conclude it's either a natural result of humans living together or a deity, formal religion or not.

I have prescribed no religion here. This is more of a picking on atheism than a pro anything else. I find atheism to be based on as much faith as that which it criticizes, for its proponents have to rely on their own faith: faith in themselves and their knowledge (despite all of us being extremely ignorant to varying degrees on most things of the universe), faith in something that has never delivered nor ever even promised to deliver anything more than a finite life followed by infinite end.

I agree with a lot of this - the "who knows" part, anyways. Those who believe in a god those who don't can just as easily apply a lot of the arguments to whether life exists on other planets - could be, but who knows.

It seems that you have prescribed, at least implicitly, that their is a god. Religion isn't far behind.

You have fantastically stated that you don't see why an atheist sees any point to living. Two questions:

Does the same opinion apply to agnostics?

Why does a god believer see any point to living?

 

[Atreus21]

Jesus Christ. What have I done?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: soulcougher73

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

Until now I never realized that you were an idiot. Man am I shocked.:shocked:

Im with Red Dawn on this one. You are making no sense lol

Well we must cut him some slack, he doesn't have much to work with and obviously he's winging it.

And this is why Red is on my list of people I take seriously, too. He often gets to the very heart of a matter in record time and with amazing economy of words. :thumbsup:

Well I was just washing the dishes and only one post in all the thread came into my memory and it was this one and for the following reason:

First RD said: Until now I never realized that you were an idiot. Man am I shocked.

Then Skoorb: I think perhaps you're not as sure of things as you would like to think you are.

And to which RD replied: "Probably not but I'm pretty sure that the so called God you worship is nothing more than a bunch of Bollocks"

It's that 'probably' that I admire and this isn't an isolated example, a talent for self awareness that is modest and self effacing, an inner confidence that isn't shrill or cruel, that can be as honest about himself as he is about others. It's a kind of non-defensive openness and candor that is hard to put in words but which I admire. It's manly in the proper sense of the word.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: shira
No amount of debate is going to change irrational minds.

Why would you want to?

I believe that spirituality is a side effect of sentience. Without it life would of been much harder so its a good crutch for the id.

Organized religion came about as a form of control. Using this spirituality to conform people to set ways. That probably helped our race early on with the formation of civilization.

So if this is the case why try to change peoples minds as to the existence of god. I say let them believe without interference.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Christians on the other hand believe in supernatural events such as the ressurrection of Christ with 0 scientific evidence, but rather the Bible as their 'proof.' There is not a single shred of philosophical equivalence going on here.

Rubbish. The allegory of the resurrection on the cross is something any person can experience and because it transforms a person from a suffering clot into God, it gets called supernatural, as people often do when they don't understand things. What you don't know is that religion is a science of experience and only those who taste know. You just got fooled by the billions of clowns who think they are religious. Religion isn't a belief, it's a state of being.

How, pray tell, is one to distinguish between "those who taste" (and therefore, according to you, know) and "the billions of clowns who think they are religious?"

Osama Bin Laden "knows" he's tasted. If you counter that his taste is a delusion, on what basis can any "taster" claim to not be deluded?

The problem with your logic is that you can't escape the extreme fallibility of the human mind.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Atheus
It always scares me when religeous people claim it's only the threat of punishment by God which keeps them from comitting horrible crimes, as if there's nothing wrong with rape, murder, etc, in themselves. What if these people suddenly lose their faith in whatever creature they believe controls them? Will they just go nuts and kill their families or what?

Similarly, years ago, I needed acl surgery. I was in pre-op and the surgeon, who I'd seen several times and who seemed competent, knelt next to my guerney and started praying asking for help through the surgery. This frightened me in that he might think he needed help - that he didn't have enough self confidence. If I hadn't been drugged I probably would have canceled.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Mods, I figured this was the best place to make such a thread, as we've had similar threads here before.

I've noticed in my discussions with atheists that a particular point they make is this: That a good and loving God would not subject his creations to pain, suffering, death, and the worst that the world can do to us. Therefore, even if a God does exist, he isn't the benevolent one that Christians believe in.

The problem of pain has been written on in volumes which could stack to the moon. What I really want to know about is its philosophical opposite: the problem of pleasure.

Why is sex fun? Surely, pleasure is not a prerequisite to procreation, as in the cases of the vast majority of other species. Why do we enjoy eating? Why do we enjoy looking at beautiful things? In other words, in a world which is ultimately meaningless, why does pleasure exist?

It seems to be the philosophical equivalent to Atheists to what the problem of pain is for Christians.

I haven't gone through this thread, and I don't know if the answer I'm about to offer has been offered (if is has, please disregard). But the answer is simplicity itself: If pleasure is associated with an act, it increases the chance that we'll engage in the act. The fact that the act of mating is extremely pleasurable induces us to mate and increases the chances that the species will survive.

Beauty: A simple example is a man finding a woman beautiful. Again, the characteristics that we associate with beauty all correlate with fecundity (a breast-waist-hip ratio that indicates health and the ability to give birth to offspring; symmetry of features which correlate with fitness; a youthful appearance). Again, mankind's appreciation of and attraction to beauty (and the urge to mate with those we find beautiful) is associated with the survival of the species.

It's extremely easy to understand how evolution via natural selection would lead to the pleasure of sex and the attraction to certain physical characteristics. No need for a God.

That's pretty much it in the nut shell, I think. Love of a face can create a bond that leads to kids. Love of kids leads to their survival and other relatives, love of the relative leads to love of people and love of people to love of the universe itself. And love of the universe leads to the disappearance of the self for the lover and the beloved are one. And thus it is that I create the God who created me.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Atheus
It always scares me when religeous people claim it's only the threat of punishment by God which keeps them from comitting horrible crimes, as if there's nothing wrong with rape, murder, etc, in themselves. What if these people suddenly lose their faith in whatever creature they believe controls them? Will they just go nuts and kill their families or what?

Similarly, years ago, I needed acl surgery. I was in pre-op and the surgeon, who I'd seen several times and who seemed competent, knelt next to my guerney and started praying asking for help through the surgery. This frightened me in that he might think he needed help - that he didn't have enough self confidence. If I hadn't been drugged I probably would have canceled.

Maybe he was just doing that to mess with your head. It's probably a common joke among surgeons. Like when you're fading away from the anasthesia and you overhear, "wait, are you sure it was supposed to be on that leg?"

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: SkoorbThe point being, why not, it doesn't matter anyway, it's all just chemicals. A true atheist would never bother with life because it holds no meaning for them. When they are gone their family may cry but their family will die eventually and they will be forgotten and meaningless, as meaningless as an ant in a hill.

You confuse "meaning" with "what's the point of it all."

I don't believe there's a point, but what does that have to do with my ability to enjoy the moment and to want my life to be as filled with good things as possible? Why should I care if my life won't make a hill-of-beans difference in the scheme of things?

If it could somehow be proven conclusively (even to your satisfaction) that God does not exist and that there's no "reason" for anything, do you really think you'd cease to be motivated by the pursuit of pleasure?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Atheus
It always scares me when religeous people claim it's only the threat of punishment by God which keeps them from comitting horrible crimes, as if there's nothing wrong with rape, murder, etc, in themselves. What if these people suddenly lose their faith in whatever creature they believe controls them? Will they just go nuts and kill their families or what?

Similarly, years ago, I needed acl surgery. I was in pre-op and the surgeon, who I'd seen several times and who seemed competent, knelt next to my guerney and started praying asking for help through the surgery. This frightened me in that he might think he needed help - that he didn't have enough self confidence. If I hadn't been drugged I probably would have canceled.

Maybe he was just doing that to mess with your head. It's probably a common joke among surgeons. Like when you're fading away from the anasthesia and you overhear, "wait, are you sure it was supposed to be on that leg?"

:laugh:

I was going to be cute and summarize that everything turned out ok except that one of my elbows is bigger than the other...

I think he was serious.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
That's pretty much it in the nut shell, I think. Love of a face can create a bond that leads to kids. Love of kids leads to their survival and other relatives, love of the relative leads to love of people and love of people to love of the universe itself. And love of the universe leads to the disappearance of the self for the lover and the beloved are one. And thus it is that I create the God who created me.

And . . .

Well I was just washing the dishes and only one post in all the thread came into my memory and it was this one and for the following reason:

First RD said: Until now I never realized that you were an idiot. Man am I shocked.

Then Skoorb: I think perhaps you're not as sure of things as you would like to think you are.

And to which RD replied: "Probably not but I'm pretty sure that the so called God you worship is nothing more than a bunch of Bollocks"

It's that 'probably' that I admire and this isn't an isolated example, a talent for self awareness that is modest and self effacing, an inner confidence that isn't shrill or cruel, that can be as honest about himself as he is about others. It's a kind of non-defensive openness and candor that is hard to put in words but which I admire. It's manly in the proper sense of the word.

Two fine examples of why I think this thread delivers in a major, major way. The two quotes are Moonbeam's, but there are any number of fine posts in this thread. :thumbsup:

 

[JTsyo]

I know I'm way late for this and the thread has gone off the usual tangents. When I hear the arguments about God, it's usually not physical pain that is being discussed but emotional pain/suffering. Along the lines they are a God fearing family why did one of their members get cancer/ die/ lose their job ect. The complementary argument is that good things happen for bad people. I'm sure if you looked at the stats for life events among religious and non-religious people, both have the same distribution of positive and negative events.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's no surprise why so many people avoid these threads. At least so far the professed atheists have been the least tolerant...

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

 

[Pens1566]

Glancing through the thread, a question popped up. Why would those that believe there is nothing more than this life want to it to end more than those that believe they're going to heaven after they die? Wouldn't the latter be more inclined to "take a shortcut"??

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Fuck it, I'm gonna go kill myself now because some whackjob says I have no purpose Buawhahahaha.

I never said you have no purpose; your reading comprehension needs a little work.

You said 'nothing they do matters'. I don't know how that could mean anything other than their life having no purpose.

I meant that consistent with their belief system, not mine. Thus, what a person does to me does matter. I never said anybody should kill themselves, I questioned why they wouldn't if they truly believe what they claim to.

Saying 'from what I've decided about your belief system you should believe your life is pointless', is somehow different? (hint: if it's their belief system, obviously they believe this way) Actually in many ways it's worse, because you're telling someone you know better than they do what their belief system means, and then telling them that this superior understanding states they should go kill themselves.

It seems to me like you hadn't given this topic that much thought before you came into this thread, and you said something that's pretty unsupportable.

I totally support his theoretical position and am an exemplar of what he's saying. He is right on. Just goes to show how accurate people can be shooting from the hip, no?

No you don't. You may well believe that if a person NEEDS life to have ultimate purpose, then if that person comes to believe that life has no purpose, that person might well want to end it all.

But that's far different from insisting that ALL people need life to have ultimate purpose. Skoorb infers that because HE needs existence to have purpose, ALL people must feel that way. Since that assumption is demonstrably false, his conclusion is false.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
And thus it is that I create the God who created me.

Thou art God.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Jesus Christ. What have I done?

I'm sorry JC is unavailable right now, press 1 to page him, or simply stay on the line to leave a message.

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy


Maybe he was just doing that to mess with your head. It's probably a common joke among surgeons. Like when you're fading away from the anasthesia and you overhear, "wait, are you sure it was supposed to be on that leg?"

That's why you personally use the magic marker to designate the correct limb to be cut.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I have a bachelor's in science with a major in psychology and specifically recall back to those studies.

Could strong belief in something that has 0 scientific evidence of existing be considered a mental illness? I certainly think so.

How strongly do you believe this?

So good. You sir, are in rare form today.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
That's pretty much it in the nut shell, I think. Love of a face can create a bond that leads to kids. Love of kids leads to their survival and other relatives, love of the relative leads to love of people and love of people to love of the universe itself. And love of the universe leads to the disappearance of the self for the lover and the beloved are one. And thus it is that I create the God who created me.

Strictly for myself, my belief takes this one step further, in that I tend to believe that this "God" or "divinity" is as "real" as we are.

Sorry, fundies, but we are descended from apes. Our language slowly and haltingly developed over thousands and thousands and thousands of years, but it remains relatively primitive in its ability to accurately explain most anything, and its genesis is in ape grunts and cries and gesticulations.

We are one hell of an evolved ape, but ape at base we remain. Manly, manly bashers of "religion" and self-described "realists" point to organized religion's many easily seen shortcomings. I well agree, but . . .

These folks flatter themselves that they see the world strictly as it is. What a crock, monkey boys! If modern physics is to be believed, there may be as many as 11 dimensions to physical reality! Put that in your three or four dimensional "pragmatic" view of the world and smoke it!

?If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.?
-- Niels Bohr

Do any of you manly pragmatists not understand that the distinctions you make between where you end and the rest of the universe begins are entirely arbitrary, a construct of your monkey mind as it has desperately tried to apprehend the world around it?

I believe with Zen Buddhism that entirely sane and reasonable idea that we are part of ONE indivisible whole. And I also happen to believe in the hopeful but not implausible concept that that one divisible whole is divine, that is, as I see it, that it has some meaning.

Hey, it's just my particular belief! But you who so reflexively and entirely dismiss my belief as meritless must understand that what you think is the unquestioned reality of things is merely your belief, and that not one of us really and truly knows.

Indeed, you must take into account that your belief in the physicality of things is most likely howlingly wrong at basis, according the modern physics, and at least as primitive and laughable as the religious dogma you dismiss in others.

What I believe is what I believe, based on my best assessment of things. What I KNOW is that what you think is implacable and inarguable fact is at least as flawed and illusory, and that, in the end, as things now stand, not one of us KNOWS for sure.

So, for me, I chose to Let the Mystery Be. :thumbsup:

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's no surprise why so many people avoid these threads. At least so far the professed atheists have been the least tolerant...

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

Ah, so he who tastes knows. Have you no concern that you are one of a billion clowns subject to the extreme fallibility of the human mind? If so you've fooled me because it sounds spot on that you know what you're talking about. But that's not so hard for me because I KNOW what you are saying.

 

[sapiens74]

My question is what is

"nature ensuring continuation of species"

Random mutations do not have some conscience or order to it. Why would this nature cares whether humans live or die? or any species for that matter?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: sapiens74
My question is what is

"nature ensuring continuation of species"

Random mutations do not have some conscience or order to it. Why would this nature cares whether humans live or die? or any species for that matter?

A deeply interesting question, in my opinion. But I am not sure what exactly you are asking. I can see two ways to read it and maybe neither is what you intended.

1. Are you asking how there can be any purpose (a will to survive, say) that is totally the result of random events, that such a purpose must be an illusion etc?, or

2. does not randomness that leads to purpose imply that purpose is an inherent property of being?

Not sure my questions will be any clearer to you than yours was to me.

1. At any rate, things have a will to live because without a will to live they wouldn't. Entropy would do them in. Live lives because what lives evolves.

2. Nature is arrogant. The existence of entropy created defiance. Nature runs down to heat death and up to consciousness.

 

[sandorski]

Clearly Religion(Christianity in this case) has oversold the "awesomeness" of "God(s)". That is why the Pain criticism exists and makes sense. The argument for "God(s)" has over reached.

The opposite, Pleasure, does not mean that the opposite, Atheism, is the Logical flipside of the "God"/Pain argument. Atheism doesn't make grandiose claims regarding its' position like Religions do.

On the subject of Pleasure though, it is in fact what gives Life Meaning. Pleasure is pleasant(duh) and desirable, not just once, but repeatedly. It makes one want to Live to experience it again. Most often, other than the occasional Religious outburst, Suicide is the result of one losing the ability to feel Pleasure, for various reasons.

Is Religion "Bad"? Yes and No. History is full of examples as to why it is Bad, so I won't go into that here. History also shows why it is Good, but not as obviously, IMO. Religion is usually the Tool that draws people together for a common cause. At various points in History when Chaos dominated, Religion helped to get beyond that. That kind of Positive affect continues to be seen over the development of a Society, but begins to become a Negative when certain Knowledge begins to challenge the Religions' assumptions. Being such an integral part of Society, invariably many begin to increasingly become hostile toward that new Knowledge. Many/Most(?) usually accept the new Knowledge though, causing some to reject Religion(Atheists/Agnostics) and others to adjust the Religion to the new Reality. Unfortunately, there are always those who maintain or come back to the Fundamentals at various stages. That's where Religion is not only "Bad", but can turn downright Evil.

This is one reason why Atheism is getting increasingly Hostile/Aggressive toward Religion. Fundamentalism is springing up everywhere, not only the Middle East, but in the very heart of the Western World, the US. What started as Faith then transitioned into Reason is now threatened by destruction by Faith again. Not the "Reasonable" Faith, but by the Unreasonable Faith that clearly believes in BS.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Jesus Christ. What have I done?

:laugh:

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: sapiens74
My question is what is

"nature ensuring continuation of species"

Random mutations do not have some conscience or order to it. Why would this nature cares whether humans live or die? or any species for that matter?

Nature, as in Earth, doesn't. We, the human species, do.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Jesus Christ. What have I done?

You... what makes you think you did anything... divine intervention caused you to do the lord's work... you are blessed my son.. go now and sin no more...

btw, that tax return... don't do that... render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's ... and ....