On Socialism and Nazis

[Zaap]

Judging virtually anyone in today's modern political climate, against ACTUAL Nazis of WWII is usually an exercise in complete simple mindedness, perpetrated by nitwits, and pants-wetting morons who love having an enemy to run scared of. I can't even use the term intellectual dishonesty, because those that engage in it the most have nothing going for them to be considered intellectual.

AT LEAST, bad as they were, commie-fearing finger-pointers of the 1950's had ACTUAL, NO SHIT, active global communist regimes to contrast their targets against, that were alive and active at the time. Whinging over actual Nazis this long after the fact.. you're a nitwit. It's that simple.

Actual Neo Nazis are just a ragtag bunch of nitwits- probably the majority come out of prison where its pretty much mandatory that one joins a gang based on race, or suffers constant rapes and beatings. Those that are actively political are a bunch of nutbags, but they don't hold any real power, and to pretend they do is just a person being a total coward for them.

I never met a conservative in my life who admired any actual Nazi of the 40s', but plenty of leftists who worship ACTUAL, no shit, real life communist regimes and dictators. So the left can fuck off with its make-believe. Go wear your Che T-shirt, wave your red flag and STFU.

As for Socialism and the REAL Nazi regime; Hitler said and did anything that suited his goals. Plenty of historians have written about this. He was capitalist when it suited him, Socialist when it suited him, anything else when it suited him. The entire regime was a mish-mosh of Hitler's WHIMS. If he felt like letting industry operate freely because he favored them, he did. If he felt like taking over an industry and letting it be state fun (actual socialism by the way) he did. Mostly it was a mish-mosh of that: 'freedom' of business, so long as your business did as Hitler dictated and made what Hitler wanted.

Taking on Nazi policies based on just the names, and desire to smear a political foe, without taking into consideration that it was mostly the whims of a dictator, not any actual solid political philosophy set in stone, is an exercise in nonsense. But then, a lot of people are all about nonsense, never letting facts or actual history, or the real workings and meanings of things get in their way.

 

[Commodus]

Judging virtually anyone in today's modern political climate, against ACTUAL Nazis of WWII is usually an exercise in complete simple mindedness, perpetrated by nitwits, and pants-wetting morons who love having an enemy to run scared of. I can't even use the term intellectual dishonesty, because those that engage in it the most have nothing going for them to be considered intellectual.

AT LEAST, bad as they were, commie-fearing finger-pointers of the 1950's had ACTUAL, NO SHIT, active global communist regimes to contrast their targets against, that were alive and active at the time. Whinging over actual Nazis this long after the fact.. you're a nitwit. It's that simple.

Actual Neo Nazis are just a ragtag bunch of nitwits- probably the majority come out of prison where its pretty much mandatory that one joins a gang based on race, or suffers constant rapes and beatings. Those that are actively political are a bunch of nutbags, but they don't hold any real power, and to pretend they do is just a person being a total coward for them.

I never met a conservative in my life who admired any actual Nazi of the 40s', but plenty of leftists who worship ACTUAL, no shit, real life communist regimes and dictators. So the left can fuck off with its make-believe. Go wear your Che T-shirt, wave your red flag and STFU.

As for Socialism and the REAL Nazi regime; Hitler said and did anything that suited his goals. Plenty of historians have written about this. He was capitalist when it suited him, Socialist when it suited him, anything else when it suited him. The entire regime was a mish-mosh of Hitler's WHIMS. If he felt like letting industry operate freely because he favored them, he did. If he felt like taking over an industry and letting it be state fun (actual socialism by the way) he did. Mostly it was a mish-mosh of that: 'freedom' of business, so long as your business did as Hitler dictated and made what Hitler wanted.

Taking on Nazi policies based on just the names, and desire to smear a political foe, without taking into consideration that it was mostly the whims of a dictator, not any actual solid political philosophy set in stone, is an exercise in nonsense. But then, a lot of people are all about nonsense, never letting facts or actual history, or the real workings and meanings of things get in their way.

Revering communist regimes is stupid, but so is downplaying neo-Nazis.

Yes, Richard Spencer and his ilk don't have much actual power. But they're still an incredibly violent camp, and we shouldn't use "it couldn't happen here" as an excuse. Neo-Nazis feel empowered by a Trump administration that's reluctant to even condemn them, and it wouldn't take a huge increase in their numbers to turn them from PITA demonstrators to something much worse.

And while I can't pretend to really know what living in fear of racism is like, here's something simple for you: my sister-in-law is black. Telling her that we shouldn't take neo-Nazis seriously because they're not as bad as the '40s variety is, to put it bluntly, spitting in her face. You don't have to worry that some emboldened neo-Nazi will spraypaint your house, harass you on the street, or beat you if they catch you in a secluded space. She does. The only acceptable action is to treat neo-Nazis as serious threats at all times, everywhere, until Nazism disappears forever.

 

[realibrad]

Revering communist regimes is stupid, but so is downplaying neo-Nazis.

Yes, Richard Spencer and his ilk don't have much actual power. But they're still an incredibly violent camp, and we shouldn't use "it couldn't happen here" as an excuse. Neo-Nazis feel empowered by a Trump administration that's reluctant to even condemn them, and it wouldn't take a huge increase in their numbers to turn them from PITA demonstrators to something much worse.

Ask yourself this, if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for? I presume you think they are trying to build a base, which then implies you believe people can be swayed to racism. If that is true, then people should also be able to be swayed away from racism. If Neo-Nazis are able to sway people to be racist by any other means other than violence, then the converse should also be true.

And while I can't pretend to really know what living in fear of racism is like, here's something simple for you: my sister-in-law is black. Telling her that we shouldn't take neo-Nazis seriously because they're not as bad as the '40s variety is, to put it bluntly, spitting in her face. You don't have to worry that some emboldened neo-Nazi will spraypaint your house, harass you on the street, or beat you if they catch you in a secluded space. She does. The only acceptable action is to treat neo-Nazis as serious threats at all times, everywhere, until Nazism disappears forever.

If your sister is living in fear anywhere equal to what people did in the 40s, then your sister is an idiot or has mental issues. That is the same mentality people that are fearful of the muslims have. The likelihood that anything would happen like it used to in the 40s is absurd and not a rational thing to believe, just like thinking the Muslims will invade and take over the US is equally crazy.

 

[Commodus]

Ask yourself this, if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for? I presume you think they are trying to build a base, which then implies you believe people can be swayed to racism. If that is true, then people should also be able to be swayed away from racism. If Neo-Nazis are able to sway people to be racist by any other means other than violence, then the converse should also be true.

If your sister is living in fear anywhere equal to what people did in the 40s, then your sister is an idiot or has mental issues. That is the same mentality people that are fearful of the muslims have. The likelihood that anything would happen like it used to in the 40s is absurd and not a rational thing to believe, just like thinking the Muslims will invade and take over the US is equally crazy.

I'm sorry, what kind of level of fear of racist violence is acceptable to you?

I didn't say she was quaking in mortal terror every living moment, but she is entirely justified in worrying that neo-Nazis now feel more comfortable intimidating, harassing and sometimes attacking non-white people than they were before. Where it once seemed likely that racism would continue on a steady decline, there's now evidence that it's coming back.

If you hadn't noticed, neo-Nazis are increasingly done with waiting. Racist harassment and violence have surged since Trump's election. And just because they don't have the numbers to live out their wildest dreams doesn't mean they aren't a threat. It doesn't take an army to put swastika graffiti on synagogues or beat interracial couples. It just takes a few neo-Nazis who feel that Trump is rubber stamping their views.

 

[realibrad]

I'm sorry, what kind of level of fear of racist violence is acceptable to you?

I refuse to believe you are as stupid as to take what I said as fear of racism is acceptable and choose to instead believe you are trying to twist what I have said. I clearly established that the fear of believing we are anywhere close to the climate of the 40s is stupid or crazy.

I didn't say she was quaking in mortal terror every living moment, but she is entirely justified in worrying that neo-Nazis now feel more comfortable intimidating, harassing and sometimes attacking non-white people than they were before. Where it once seemed likely that racism would continue on a steady decline, there's now evidence that it's coming back.

The level of fear that a minority had in the 40s compared to today is so vastly large that its absurd to compare them as anything close to equal.

If you hadn't noticed, neo-Nazis are increasingly done with waiting. Racist harassment and violence have surged since Trump's election. And just because they don't have the numbers to live out their wildest dreams doesn't mean they aren't a threat. It doesn't take an army to put swastika graffiti on synagogues or beat interracial couples. It just takes a few neo-Nazis who feel that Trump is rubber stamping their views.

Try this little thought experiment, replace Nazi with Muslim. Then, see how you would respond to the Muslim argument and then see if that argument is valid here. Tell me where you think that one argument works and not the other.

So far as I can tell, Nazis, while a growing threat, are nowhere near as being popular or powerful enough to do anything other than cause small pockets of problems. Hell, they cant even get their rallies to happen because the opposition is so fast to mobilize and shut them down.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

We're fine with dissent. We actually respect this concept called democracy; we oppose neo-Nazis and others whose ultimate goal is to suppress it. Meanwhile, Trump is wondering why he can't shut down NBC for presenting stories he doesn't like, but you don't have any problem with that, do you?

Yes I do, 1st Amendment is as important to me as the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Commodus]

Yes I do, 1st Amendment is as important to me as the 2nd Amendment.

And yet you're fine with the political policies of a President who wants to shut down a major news organization for producing stories that criticize him. Don't you see the cognitive dissonance here? You say you hate attempts to stifle free speech, but you have no problem cheerleading a man who's opposed to free speech in a way that no other President (or presidential candidate) has ever been.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

And yet you're fine with the political policies of a President who wants to shut down a major news organization for producing stories that criticize him. Don't you see the cognitive dissonance here? You say you hate attempts to stifle free speech, but you have no problem cheerleading a man who's opposed to free speech in a way that no other President (or presidential candidate) has ever been.

When did it happen? I never saw anything of President Trump trying to shut down a major news outlet? I do remember President Obama's war on FOX though.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Closest I can come is this.
"
“It’s frankly disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write,” Trump said. “And people should look into it.”

Trump said he was not calling for limits to be imposed on the media, but he said that “the press should speak more honestly.”

“I mean, I’ve seen tremendously dishonest press,” he said. “It’s not even a question of distortion. . . . And then they have their sources that don’t exist.”

from this story >
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.f22a1b6569c1

Trying to shut down a major news outlet not found.

 

[urvile]

Bullshit, you claim this neo-nazi asshole is rabidly anti-semitic and yet Donald Trump's grandchildren are Jewish, as is his daughter and son-in-law. So go fuck off you God damned lefty fluffer. You just hate the idea that conservatives and Republicans actually speak up against your type of pro-violence rhetoric. You're the one posting pictures of the guy, you're the one worshipping at his feet.

Look at the distortion of reality. The intrepid tajmahals only response is to avoid answering the question of why conservatives such as himself cannot acknowledge that extremists like jeff also vote trump and that far right terrorists have killed more people in the US since 9/11 than jihadists.

you claim this neo-nazi asshole is rabidly anti-semitic and yet Donald Trump's grandchildren are Jewish,

What?

 

[urvile]

Trump said he was not calling for limits to be imposed on the media, but he said that “the press should speak more honestly.”

Honest in what way tajmahal? Because in this case honest means that the press should only agree with trump. You can't see the problem there? It's like you want to live in a fascist society. One nation under conservatism, far right extremists and trump. A free press is for losers isn't it buddy. You delusional fuck knuckle.

 

[urvile]

Bullshit, you claim this neo-nazi asshole is rabidly anti-semitic and yet Donald Trump's grandchildren are Jewish, as is his daughter and son-in-law. So go fuck off you God damned lefty fluffer. You just hate the idea that conservatives and Republicans actually speak up against your type of pro-violence rhetoric. You're the one posting pictures of the guy, you're the one worshipping at his feet.

Hey tajy. Where do you come up with this shit? I think it is being fed to you because even though it is lazy, ham fisted, pseudo-intellectual bullshit. It still seems a little bit beyond you.

 

[Thebobo]

So the left can fuck off with its make-believe. Go wear your Che T-shirt, wave your red flag and STFU.
.

Such a shame in otherwise a good post to ruin it with that.

 

[woolfe9998]

Ask yourself this, if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for? I presume you think they are trying to build a base, which then implies you believe people can be swayed to racism. If that is true, then people should also be able to be swayed away from racism. If Neo-Nazis are able to sway people to be racist by any other means other than violence, then the converse should also be true.

I guaranty you that just about anyone recruited by white supremacists and/or neo-nazis was already a racist, probably for their entire lives. It's more a matter of spurring racists to political action, instead of just belly aching about "the blacks." The point being that while Nazi groups themselves are relatively small (if growing), the base of racists from which they recruit is quite a bit larger. One recruitment tool is to remove the stigma of Nazism by calling yourself something innocuous sounding like "alt right."

So far as I can tell, Nazis, while a growing threat, are nowhere near as being popular or powerful enough to do anything other than cause small pockets of problems. Hell, they cant even get their rallies to happen because the opposition is so fast to mobilize and shut them down.

This observation is unfortunately rather self-defeating. If everyone felt the same way you did about them - that they are little more than a nuisance - there wouldn't be such swift opposition to shut down their rallies. The people who show up to these rallies are a lot more concerned about them than you apparently are. This is the very point: we must be vigilant to prevent the rise of fascism. Complacency is a bad idea.

The Nazis themselves only got 1% of the vote the first time they ran. They were considered a fringe not to be taken seriously. It took one big economic downturn and just a few years for their popularity to dramatically increase.

 

[woolfe9998]

Judging virtually anyone in today's modern political climate, against ACTUAL Nazis of WWII is usually an exercise in complete simple mindedness, perpetrated by nitwits, and pants-wetting morons who love having an enemy to run scared of. I can't even use the term intellectual dishonesty, because those that engage in it the most have nothing going for them to be considered intellectual.

AT LEAST, bad as they were, commie-fearing finger-pointers of the 1950's had ACTUAL, NO SHIT, active global communist regimes to contrast their targets against, that were alive and active at the time. Whinging over actual Nazis this long after the fact.. you're a nitwit. It's that simple.

Actual Neo Nazis are just a ragtag bunch of nitwits- probably the majority come out of prison where its pretty much mandatory that one joins a gang based on race, or suffers constant rapes and beatings. Those that are actively political are a bunch of nutbags, but they don't hold any real power, and to pretend they do is just a person being a total coward for them.

I never met a conservative in my life who admired any actual Nazi of the 40s', but plenty of leftists who worship ACTUAL, no shit, real life communist regimes and dictators. So the left can fuck off with its make-believe. Go wear your Che T-shirt, wave your red flag and STFU.

As for Socialism and the REAL Nazi regime; Hitler said and did anything that suited his goals. Plenty of historians have written about this. He was capitalist when it suited him, Socialist when it suited him, anything else when it suited him. The entire regime was a mish-mosh of Hitler's WHIMS. If he felt like letting industry operate freely because he favored them, he did. If he felt like taking over an industry and letting it be state fun (actual socialism by the way) he did. Mostly it was a mish-mosh of that: 'freedom' of business, so long as your business did as Hitler dictated and made what Hitler wanted.

Taking on Nazi policies based on just the names, and desire to smear a political foe, without taking into consideration that it was mostly the whims of a dictator, not any actual solid political philosophy set in stone, is an exercise in nonsense. But then, a lot of people are all about nonsense, never letting facts or actual history, or the real workings and meanings of things get in their way.

Regarding socialism v. capitalism and Hitler, I agree. Economics were not a major interest to Hitler himself. He pawned off that responsibility first to Schacht, later to Goering. So yes, he did whatever was convenient for the aim of war production. This doesn't mean Hitler was without ideology, however. There are two overarching elements to Hitler's ideology: nationalism and racism. Neither of those are things anyone could reasonably associate with either socialism or the left, but both constitute the only real ideology that Hitler believed in.

 

[Commodus]

Closest I can come is this.
"
“It’s frankly disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write,” Trump said. “And people should look into it.”

Trump said he was not calling for limits to be imposed on the media, but he said that “the press should speak more honestly.”

“I mean, I’ve seen tremendously dishonest press,” he said. “It’s not even a question of distortion. . . . And then they have their sources that don’t exist.”

from this story >
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.f22a1b6569c1

Trying to shut down a major news outlet not found.

Closest I can come is this.
"
“It’s frankly disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write,” Trump said. “And people should look into it.”

Trump said he was not calling for limits to be imposed on the media, but he said that “the press should speak more honestly.”

“I mean, I’ve seen tremendously dishonest press,” he said. “It’s not even a question of distortion. . . . And then they have their sources that don’t exist.”

from this story >
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.f22a1b6569c1

Trying to shut down a major news outlet not found.

Remember what else he wrote?

"With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!"

When did other presidents raise the specter of taking away a broadcaster's license because it said things they didn't like? I'd like to hear it. Combine that with the "disgusting" quote, his hope for broader libel laws, his sharp limits on what the press can do at briefings, and his suggestion that flag burners should be stripped of their rights... you start to see a pattern. Trump is genuinely annoyed that people are allowed to criticize him. There may not be much he can actually do to stifle free speech, but he desperately wishes he could -- and that informs a lot of his thinking, such as appointing an EPA chief who censors 'inconvenient' scientific facts.

 

[brycejones]

Such a shame in otherwise a good post to ruin it with that.

Zaap is angry as hell at something and somehow it's the "leftists" who did it. But we aren't really sure what it is specifically.

 

[urvile]

. But then, a lot of people are all about nonsense, never letting facts or actual history, or the real workings and meanings of things get in their way.

Well. You would certainly know. I am going to include you in my previous suggestion to start a private thread where you alt-right fanboys can have a big circle jerk....I mean re-write history. You no doubt have the circle jerk thing under control already.

 

[urvile]

Just remember that this guy is not a nazi because donald trumps grandkids are jewish.

 

[MajinCry]

Just remember that this guy is not a nazi because donald trumps grandkids are jewish.

Now contrast that with an example of a ragtag bunch of nitwits acting like Nazis:

But it's not Harry Enfield that Zaap 'n' Co. are trying to put in a better light. I wonder why. Hmm. Hmmmmmmm.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Remember what else he wrote?

"With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!"

When did other presidents raise the specter of taking away a broadcaster's license because it said things they didn't like? I'd like to hear it. Combine that with the "disgusting" quote, his hope for broader libel laws, his sharp limits on what the press can do at briefings, and his suggestion that flag burners should be stripped of their rights... you start to see a pattern. Trump is genuinely annoyed that people are allowed to criticize him. There may not be much he can actually do to stifle free speech, but he desperately wishes he could -- and that informs a lot of his thinking, such as appointing an EPA chief who censors 'inconvenient' scientific facts.

"Challenge" I thought you were trying to make the claim he was going to "shut down" a news media outlet? You are a long, long way off from that.
It's not as if President Trump sent the secret service to get a warrant from a friendly judge, had them execute a no knock warrant, pick the lock of a media executive and storm the poor guys house and then prosecute him in hopes of getting some information to shut down a network.

 

[Commodus]

"Challenge" I thought you were trying to make the claim he was going to "shut down" a news media outlet? You are a long, long way off from that.
It's not as if President Trump sent the secret service to get a warrant from a friendly judge, had them execute a no knock warrant, pick the lock of a media executive and storm the poor guys house and then prosecute him in hopes of getting some information to shut down a network.

Well no, I wasn't suggesting he was actively striving for it. Apologies if I mischaracterized it. Rather, it's more that he's seriously questioning whether or not it's possible to pull NBC's license, and for all the wrong reasons. Not because it's spreading "fake news" (it's not), but because he doesn't like unflattering news.

 

[zinfamous]

Ask yourself this, if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for? I presume you think they are trying to build a base, which then implies you believe people can be swayed to racism. If that is true, then people should also be able to be swayed away from racism. If Neo-Nazis are able to sway people to be racist by any other means other than violence, then the converse should also be true.



If your sister is living in fear anywhere equal to what people did in the 40s, then your sister is an idiot or has mental issues. That is the same mentality people that are fearful of the muslims have. The likelihood that anything would happen like it used to in the 40s is absurd and not a rational thing to believe, just like thinking the Muslims will invade and take over the US is equally crazy.

What are they waiting for? Is it not clear that they've been waiting for the election of a Donald J Trump all this time? I mean, all you have to do is read their own rhetoric. They claim him as their president.

Where have they been all this time, up until this last year? Why are they suddenly emboldened? In the same breath that you apologists downplay their actual threat, scream about the counterprotests against them, you ignore the actual fact that the counterprotests are very likely what is keeping them at bay in their new, unprecedented emboldened era. But no credit, right?

It's like arguing that the Voting Rights Act is no longer needed because of decades of zero violations in the states and districts that it targeted....by of course ignoring the obvious documented fact that those violations didn't happen because the Voting Rights Act was in place to prevent them.

 

[realibrad]

What are they waiting for? Is it not clear that they've been waiting for the election of a Donald J Trump all this time? I mean, all you have to do is read their own rhetoric. They claim him as their president.

And now he is our president, and has been for almost a year now. The most we have seen is some rallies and limited violence. None of it good for sure, but nothing close to being a movement that is anywhere close to posing a threat to society.

Claiming him as their president has nothing to do with what I have said. I asked what are they waiting for in terms of what they want to do and why have they not done it.

Where have they been all this time, up until this last year? Why are they suddenly emboldened? In the same breath that you apologists downplay their actual threat, scream about the counterprotests against them, you ignore the actual fact that the counterprotests are very likely what is keeping them at bay in their new, unprecedented emboldened era. But no credit, right?

Not sure what this has to do with anything that I have said. I am claiming that these people are very small and also unorganized, and, as such pose little threat to society. They do pose threats to individuals no doubt, but not to society as a whole right now.

It's like arguing that the Voting Rights Act is no longer needed because of decades of zero violations in the states and districts that it targeted....by of course ignoring the obvious documented fact that those violations didn't happen because the Voting Rights Act was in place to prevent them.

I'm starting to wonder if you mean to reply to someone else. You highlighted part of what I said which was this...

"if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for?"

As of right now, out side of a few rallies that for the most part have been complete failures, nothing has been done. They are more relevant than they were pre-Trump, but by far not a bigger threat than most other things. Trump has been our president for almost a year, and we have had a few rallies and some limited violence. If Trump was what they were waiting for, then their plans seem very small. Unless, again, they are trying to build a base of support before they try more. Do you believe that?

 

[Genx87]

After taking power, Hitler disbanded the trade unions and banned striking. And, after cozying up to the industrialists for help with war production, he executed the remaining socialists in the party on June 30, 1934 in order to appease said industrialists.

He killed the parties' socialists and disbanded the unions, but hey, he "put regulations on smoking" so I guess we can say he was a socialist, right?

Your source is at best selective in its presentation of facts.

Correct, the Night of the Long Knives killed the remaining hard core socialists. In their run up to power the NSDAP spewed socialist rhetoric against liberals, capitalists, immigrants, free trade, and the western democracies. Rohm wanted to continue the movement and move onto redistribution of wealth. He was purged and with it any chance for this to happen on a major scale. Rohm also represented the biggest threat to Hitler in terms of power. His SA was rolled into the SS after the purge.

Anyways I take the view once an ideology gets to the level of authoritarian of Socialism, Communist dictatorship, or National Socialism. Does it matter which side of the spectrum they reside? We are arguing over semantics at that point imo. National Socialists wanted a racially pure state. Communists wanted an ideologically pure state. Both created networks of death camps and enacted policy that killed tens of millions to achieve these goals.