Optane memory

[strep3241]

Looking at doing an upgrade soon, got a thread going about it in the general hardware section. While looking at different prebuilts and parts, I noticed something called optane memory. Of the prebuilts I looked at, only 1 had that as an option, 16gb's of DDR4 + 16gb's of optane memory.

How new is this technology and is it something worth having even if it is fairly new? After doing a search on newegg.com, I only seen 1 optane memory individual item.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

There's a few articles on the mothership on Optane, but in a nutshell it splits the difference between RAM and a traditional SSD. In theory, it should be faster than an SSD, but not as fast as RAM and in much greater capacity than RAM but still less than an SSD. In practice, or at least so far, it does some tasks much better than an SSD and about on par with a high end one in most while costing quite a bit more at lower capacities. However, it's an emerging technology put out there by a company with deep pockets so I imagine it will improve. Long story short, there no sense in going out of your way to get/avoid Optane right now in terms of prebuilts as just about every other component will have a greater impact.

 

[Elixer]

You ask me, forget the Optane, and just get a bigger SSD.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Optane is mostly a non-starter, until Optane Memory DIMMs start to trickle down into the mainstream.

Then it will cause a sea-change in how we use our computers. Imagine RAM, except, persistent like an SSD. Or like an SSD, as fast as DRAM. That's what the promise of Optane really supports.

We're not quite there yet, they've got smallish Optane-based NVMe SSDs (ok, really small, 16/32GB-sized), that they are advertising to use as a cache for HDDs. But given the small size, and the NVMe limitations, you are better off overall, getting a larger (250/500GB) Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD.

 

[FwFred]

I found Optane useful for my Dad's new desktop. Greater than 1TB SSD is cost prohibitive for him and he's not proficient enough to have files/programs spanning multiple drives. The Optane makes his spinning disk system super responsive for booting and running his applications. It was a cheap way to get lots of storage while still having a responsive system.

 

[Elixer]

I found Optane useful for my Dad's new desktop. Greater than 1TB SSD is cost prohibitive for him and he's not proficient enough to have files/programs spanning multiple drives. The Optane makes his spinning disk system super responsive for booting and running his applications. It was a cheap way to get lots of storage while still having a responsive system.

Yeah, 1TB+ SSDs are expensive, no doubt about that.
However, even in your case, he would have been better off with a dedicated SSD for the OS + a few highly used programs, and a spinner for everything else.
$80 for 32GB of Optane is just too expensive for a cache.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The worst part is, you can't really use Optane to save money. It's ill-positioned in the market, due to Intel's extreme level of product segmentation.

If you're so cheap, that you would use a large HDD, rather than an SSD, and want an Optane cache for that, well, then you have to pony up the bucks, not only for a 200-series mobo to support Optane in their M.2 sockets, but also, a "Core"-series CPU. Optane won't work with a Celeron or Pentium, the most likely CPU to pair with a HDD system.

Edit: I'm speaking primarily of self-built budget rigs here. Not of OEM systems with severe price markup (300%) for an included regular SSD. If you were in the market for a cheap HDD-based rig, with an Optane cache to speed it up, then you would likely also be in the market for a lower-end Intel CPU, like a Pentium or even a Celeron. But with those CPUs, no Optane for you. So, with what you save by going with an Optane cache, over a larger traditional SSD drive, you have to spend to upgrade your CPU to one that Intel considers "worthy" to utilize an Optane cache drive. Very tricky of them.

 

[FwFred]

Skipping the SSD + HDD and going with 16GB optane + HDD absolutely saved my Dad money on a Dell XPS system. I used the system, it felt like a fast SSD.

If it was for me Id probably get a 1TB SSD (OS/applications) + HDD (photos/media).

 

[R0H1T]

I really doubt that it did, somehow I see you're overplaying the effect(s) of Optane, I wonder why

 

[FwFred]

Today's Dell webpage (searching for XPS Tower).

Cheapest system with SSD (256GB + 1TB HDD) is $1099
Cheapest system with Optane (16GB + 1TB HDD) is $749

Some config differences but my Dad doesn't game.

 

[PingSpike]

Today's Dell webpage (searching for XPS Tower).

Cheapest system with SSD (256GB + 1TB HDD) is $1099
Cheapest system with Optane (16GB + 1TB HDD) is $749

Some config differences but my Dad doesn't game.

The question is what is the cheapest storage configuration they sell period that you can drop a 1TB aftermarket SSD into.

 

[dullard]

To me, it seems like Optane is the future (note: that I didn't say now). Forum posters tend to hate it for several reasons.

VirtualLarry covered the main reasons that people are against Optane. Intel has released a low-end Optane that is currently incompatible with low-end systems (and AMD systems which I think is the real source of anger against Optane) and an ultra-high end Optane for enterprises. Intel has not released anything yet for the bulk of us computer enthusiasts. Until more Optane variants are released, it serves just a small niche, although if you are in that niche Optane is the best thing to come in years.

Optane is the future since it can give us faster storage and/or cheaper memory. Both of which have been major bottlenecks in computers. We just have to wait for Intel to release more types though.

In the last week, HP just started adding Optane to their computers: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3210...f-the-first-pcs-with-intel-optane-memory.html Dell added Optane to the XPS and Alienware systems: http://deals.dell.com/compare/fwy and IBM added it to their cloud service: https://www.ibm.com/blogs/bluemix/2017/08/intel-optane-ssd-dc-p4800x-available-now-ibm-cloud/ So, major companies find it useful. Don't listen just to the naysayers. But don't ignore the naysayers either as they have a valid point for the bulk of us.

Get Optane now if you have or will be buying an Optane compatible computer and either (a) don't have a solid state hard drive or (b) have a older/slower solid state hard drive. If you have a good solid state hard drive, then do not buy Optane. Wait for better versions to come along.

 

[Elixer]

Intel & Micron are both working on it, it is a joint venture.

Nobody knows what the future will hold, Xpoint/Optane could turn out to be pretty good, but, for 95% of the consumers, it all boils down to costs, and, it just isn't worth it for the average joe.

They are bundling, since they are getting very good deals on it, and they can use a spinner, which is still far cheaper than a SSD. It has to do with their bottom line, and if optane + HD is cheaper than SSD, then they will use it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

They are bundling, since they are getting very good deals on it, and they can use a spinner, which is still far cheaper than a SSD. It has to do with their bottom line, and if optane + HD is cheaper than SSD, then they will use it.

It just seems a bit like the wrong way 'round.

Maybe, if they sold Optane components / memory, to HDD mfgs in bulk, and let them integrate it with next-gen SSHDs, then perhaps I could see the point.

Currently, you need:
1) A spare M.2 PCI-E slot
2) A CPU that meets the minimum requirements
3) Chipset the meets the minimum requirements
4) Big HDD
5) Software running on the host, to manage all of this.

And the big downside, if you don't "qualify", then no Optane for you!

That's where I think they should be selling this tech to HDD makers.

 

[dullard]

Currently, you need:
1) A spare M.2 PCI-E slot
2) A CPU that meets the minimum requirements
3) Chipset the meets the minimum requirements
4) Big HDD
5) Software running on the host, to manage all of this.

Over time, virtually everyone will have those requirements. It is a chicken-and-the-egg problem. Releasing Optane without the hardware to support it makes Optane useless. Including hardware to support it without Optane available just adds costs and motherboard manufacturers/OEMs won't do it. So, Intel is doing both the chicken and the egg at the same time; and the result is that we have this transition phase where some people qualify and some people don't.

I'm really curious as to what the next-gen Optane support will be in Z370 motherboards. I think this will finally be the Optane for the enthusiasts. But of course, since they are changing the hardware requirements yet again, the chicken-and-the-egg problem resets with Z370. Only a select few will have next-gen Optane hardware minimum requirements.

 

[bigboxes]

Over time, virtually everyone will have those requirements. It is a chicken-and-the-egg problem. Releasing Optane without the hardware to support it makes Optane useless. Including hardware to support it without Optane available just adds costs and motherboard manufacturers/OEMs won't do it. So, Intel is doing both the chicken and the egg at the same time; and the result is that we have this transition phase where some people qualify and some people don't.

I'm really curious as to what the next-gen Optane support will be in Z370 motherboards. I think this will finally be the Optane for the enthusiasts. But of course, since they are changing the hardware requirements yet again, the chicken-and-the-egg problem resets with Z370. Only a select few will have next-gen Optane hardware minimum requirements.

Will there be three tiers of data storage or will is this paradigm shifting? By that, I mean SSD + Optane + ram. Would Optane be a desired gap between the faster SSD and the more volatile ram for enthusiasts?

 

[dullard]

Will there be three tiers of data storage or will is this paradigm shifting? By that, I mean SSD + Optane + ram. Would Optane be a desired gap between the faster SSD and the more volatile ram for enthusiasts?

There aren't any rumors yet that I have seen about what is exactly coming. But, three tiers seems to be the ultimate goal. Drive for large data storage + Optane for fast non-volatile storage and/or slow but massive memory + Ram for even faster volatile storage.

It appears that the next logical step is just a SSD based on Optane.

 

[bigboxes]

There aren't any rumors yet that I have seen about what is exactly coming. But, three tiers seems to be the ultimate goal. Drive for large data storage + Optane for fast non-volatile storage and/or slow but massive memory + Ram for even faster volatile storage.

It appears that the next logical step is just a SSD based on Optane.

I thought that SSDs were faster than Optane. No SSDs and Optane in the future? (along with ram + HDD)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Over time, virtually everyone will have those requirements.

AMD users?

 

[dullard]

I thought that SSDs were faster than Optane. No SSDs and Optane in the future? (along with ram + HDD)

The bottom of the line Optane dominates in random reads being 5x or even sometimes 10x faster than the best SSD. That same Optane is quite middling on sequential reads. It is sluggish on writes. So, a blend of the two is going to be better than just a SSD or just Optane. Intel is doing something along those lines with the Optane SSD that is supposed to launch later this year. In that case it will be Optane based SSD + RAM. http://images.anandtech.com/doci/11210/tiers.png See the top tier in Orange.

But Intel's ultimate goal is to have all three: RAM + Optane + SSD. https://itpeernetwork.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2017/03/Optane_usages4.png
They just aren't there yet.

AMD users?

No reason that AMD can't cross licence that technology too (if Optane does become good enough for the masses).

 

[bigboxes]

The bottom of the line Optane dominates in random reads being 5x or even sometimes 10x faster than the best SSD. That same Optane is quite middling on sequential reads. It is sluggish on writes. So, a blend of the two is going to be better than just a SSD or just Optane. Intel is doing something along those lines with the Optane SSD that is supposed to launch later this year. In that case it will be Optane based SSD + RAM. http://images.anandtech.com/doci/11210/tiers.png See the top tier in Orange.

But Intel's ultimate goal is to have all three: RAM + Optane + SSD. https://itpeernetwork.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2017/03/Optane_usages4.png
They just aren't there yet.

No reason that AMD can't cross licence that technology too (if Optane does become good enough for the masses).

So, what's going to optimize all this, CPU, chipsets or operating systems?

 

[dullard]

So, what's going to optimize all this, CPU, chipsets or operating systems?

Right now, software. Intel has software that you run that determines how to use Optane. I could potentially see a change to that in the future though. For example, no one has yet publicly defined what is meant by "next-gen Optane" in this future chipset rumor here:
http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/...ee-Lake-and-300-Series-Platform-Details_3.jpg

 

[IntelUser2000]

The bottom of the line Optane dominates in random reads being 5x or even sometimes 10x faster than the best SSD. That same Optane is quite middling on sequential reads. It is sluggish on writes. So, a blend of the two is going to be better than just a SSD or just Optane.

Optane Memory in its current implementation is the one that has "middling" reads and sluggish writes. But that's segmentation, not a technology limit.

Optane SSD on the enterprise is rated at ~2.5GB/s for both sequential read and writes. You'll see consumer oriented drives with similar specs as well. Micron will aim for even higher sequential throughput with their QuantX SSDs. They have a version that will fully saturate PCIe x4 slot, and another that will saturate PCIe x8 slot. Actually, they'll get to saturate that with QD of less than 10.

For example, no one has yet publicly defined what is meant by "next-gen Optane" in this future chipset rumor here:

Quite easy to guess actually. http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/...ne-SSD-Roadmap-2016-2017-3D-XPoint-Memory.jpg

Current Optane Memory is code-named Stony Beach. It's on a PCIe x2 interface. Carson Beach is the successor that will use x4 interface. There has been early leaks about 64GB capacities so I assume we'll see 64GB added on top of the current 16/32GB. We can also speculate they'll improve power management by implementing low power idle mode.

 

[Campy]

Optane can also be used as a regular NVMe storage even in RAID-0, and you can boot from it. http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8234/intel-optane-raid-worlds-fastest-system-disk/index.html

 

[VirtualLarry]

Optane can also be used as a regular NVMe storage even in RAID-0, and you can boot from it. http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8234/intel-optane-raid-worlds-fastest-system-disk/index.html

Sounds nice and all, but my ASRock AB350M Pro4 only has one "Ultra M.2" socket on it. So I'll have to wait for 128GB Optane SSDs, the ones that can actually utilize PCI-E 3.0 x4, not the current crop of x2 drives.