Oregon college shooting

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Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,147
1,329
126
Very true.
I tried that same argument long ago. They responded with that cars kill people too. I have never seen someone rob a bank while threatening to drive into the bank...

Guns are designed to kill people. And nothing will ever change that. Unless bullets are developed that increase in size on impact, deforming in such a way that only a bruise and a lot of pain will be present. And the amount of gun powder should be set to a maximum (potential energy) since that is also vital in the amount of kinetic energy a bullet has after being fired.
Rubber bullets will not do ,though. Then a gun would be a proper non lethal deterrent. Unless someone is saturated with painkillers of course.
But such bullets do not exist... :|

edit:
Only the police should have real bullets.

There is always the old Chris Rock joke of raising the price of ammunition to a sky high point. Put a tax on ammunition to the point that a bullet costs $1000 to all but the military or law enforcement and then require a permit to produce ammunition and criminalize the production of ammunition without a permit.

Someone will have to take out a second mortgage to go on a shooting rampage

I think a reassessment of the second amendment and the idea that it is still some sort of reasonable and sound notion would probably be worth doing. The idea that it is some sort of sacrosanct edict doesn't make sense. It is an archaic notion from a time when people were living in what was essentially the wild west. That in the year 2015 it should still amount to the right to unrestricted access to all sorts of firearms doesn't add up.

I mean, the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments have all largely been thrown out by the NSA, Patriot Act and secret courts. So why is the 2nd escaping a similar gutting ?
 
May 11, 2008
21,848
1,316
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Yep, and it's a good thing they were designed that way. Name me a better deterrent against a home invader, a rapist, or a murderer. Self-defense is a fundamental right in any country worth living in (no, I do not consider the UK to be a worthwhile place to live).

Rape is so common, if any woman that would shoot the rapist would do so, about 25 percent of the male population would die off immediately.

But i understand your point with your examples, when you live in an area where your nearest neighbor lives (for example) 10 miles away, a gun can be vital for survival. Even an animal with rabies is nothing but dangerous.

But in a city, there are too much people living together and emotions can run amok. In a city there is enough police to protect the people. Police officers should carry guns, but not only guns. People however in cities should not.
Police officers will not attack you out of nothing. And yes, corruption can happen but then again police officers are human too. And almost all police officers are fine people who serve, help and protect.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,111
318
126
afaik these kinds of rampage killings weren't even that common before the 60s or so, unless they just went unreported. Just look at this list of school massacres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(school_massacres)

1 in the 20s, 1 in the 50s, 2 in the 60s (interestingly on the same year), 3 in the 70s (2 also on the same year), 4 in the 80s, 11 in the 90s, 8 in the 00s, 7 so far this decade. What happened in society such that widely available guns used to be OK but now they're "archaic" and killing all our innocent little children?
 
May 11, 2008
21,848
1,316
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There is always the old Chris Rock joke of raising the price of ammunition to a sky high point. Put a tax on ammunition to the point that a bullet costs $1000 to all but the military or law enforcement and then require a permit to produce ammunition and criminalize the production of ammunition without a permit.

Someone will have to take out a second mortgage to go on a shooting rampage

I think a reassessment of the second amendment and the idea that it is still some sort of reasonable and sound notion would probably be worth doing. The idea that it is some sort of sacrosanct edict doesn't make sense. It is an archaic notion from a time when people were living in what was essentially the wild west. That in the year 2015 it should still amount to the right to unrestricted access to all sorts of firearms doesn't add up.

I mean, the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments have all largely been thrown out by the NSA, Patriot Act and secret courts. So why is the 2nd escaping a similar gutting ?

The NRA attacks just that. The NRA states that the government is taking away all amendments, freedoms and right from the people. The people respond. A country endlessly in battle with itself, draining all the financial resources until there is nothing left. I do hope that that will not happen...
 
May 11, 2008
21,848
1,316
126
afaik these kinds of rampage killings weren't even that common before the 60s or so, unless they just went unreported. Just look at this list of school massacres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(school_massacres)

1 in the 20s, 1 in the 50s, 2 in the 60s (interestingly on the same year), 3 in the 70s (2 also on the same year), 4 in the 80s, 11 in the 90s, 8 in the 00s, 7 so far this decade. What happened in society such that widely available guns used to be OK but now they're "archaic" and killing all our innocent little children?

Access to information. You can learn from information. But information can also plant a seed in you. Old religious scholars would say that that is the very reason why people should be kept dumb...
We live in a communication era. It happens more often because shooters to be , read about it and think about it.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,111
318
126
Rape is so common, if any woman that would shoot the rapist would do so, about 25 percent of the male population would die off immediately.

But i understand your point with your examples, when you live in an area where your nearest neighbor lives (for example) 10 miles away, a gun can be vital for survival. Even an animal with rabies is nothing but dangerous.

But in a city, there are too much people living together and emotions can run amok. In a city there is enough police to protect the people. Police officers should carry guns, but not only guns. People however in cities should not.
Police officers will not attack you out of nothing. And yes, corruption can happen but then again police officers are human too. And almost all police officers are fine people who serve, help and protect.

Interestingly, the vast majority of rapes, and a very significant number of homicides (probably close to a majority but not 100% sure) involve alcohol. Not to mention DUI which kills as many people as all firearm homicides. Guys like Perknose got to get their daily fix though, so no stopping that. (EDIT: A quick Google is telling me about 1/3 of homicides involve alcohol)

The police kill many more people in the USA than do rampage killers per year. Additionally, the police have no obligation to protect anyone, and in large cites like NYC, it's difficult to even get police to come in the case of an average property crime. When it comes to violent crime, police response is almost never fast enough to stop a perpetrator before the act. I'm of the opinion that relaxation of private recording laws, plus super-cheap cameras and phones with automatic cloud storage will revolutionize the way people handle crime within a few generations, so admittedly I think self-policing/monitoring may limit the value of self-defense in the future.

I do agree that population density should be considered as a factor, and would add demographics/cultural issues. Many people say "Hey, you can only compare USA gun homicides to those in first-world Western nations, otherwise it's not fair!", neglecting to mention that the majority of gun violence occurs in isolated pockets in the ghettos where standard of living is far below that of a poor German or Australian neighborhood.
 
Last edited:
May 11, 2008
21,848
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Interestingly, the vast majority of rapes, and a very significant number of homicides (probably close to a majority but not 100% sure) involve alcohol. Not to mention DUI which kills as many people as all firearm homicides. Guys like Perknose got to get their daily fix though, so no stopping that. (EDIT: A quick Google is telling me about 1/3 of homicides involve alcohol)

Alcohol is something that should not be seen lightly. Alcohol is so common that people forget that it takes away your reason when you had too much to drink. In comparison to guns, alcohol on its own only kills when you consume massive amounts of it. It only kills others when you hit someone with a bottle or use a gun, another weapon or strangle that person.
Alcohol on itself does not kill people unless consuming massive amounts to the point of alcohol poisoning. People under the influence of alcohol still need a weapon, may that be fists or guns, or a knife or a bat to kill.

When i see those youngsters drinking like crazy and behaving sometimes like idiots, the alcohol is not to blame. It is society that makes it alright and cool to drink alcohol while putting a tampon saturated with wodka up ones ass or a bottle of wodka on the eye.
Alcohol is a drug and should be used in moderation. The point is, people need to be able to let go. And a moderate amount of alcohol can help with that.
But as with everything, alcohol requires responsibility.
The police kill many more people in the USA than do rampage killers per year. Additionally, the police have no obligation to protect anyone, and in large cites like NYC, it's difficult to even get police to come in the case of an average property crime. When it comes to violent crime, police response is almost never fast enough to stop a perpetrator before the act. I'm of the opinion that relaxation of private recording laws, plus super-cheap cameras and phones with automatic cloud storage will revolutionize the way people handle crime within a few generations, so admittedly I think self-policing/monitoring may limit the value of self-defense in the future.

I do agree that population density should be considered as a factor, and would add demographics/cultural issues. Many people say "Hey, you can only compare USA gun homicides to those in first-world Western nations, otherwise it's not fair!", neglecting to mention that the majority of gun violence occurs in isolated pockets in the ghettos where standard of living is far below that of a poor German or Australian neighborhood.

Well, i never said that the police is perfect everywhere. When a police officer gets little money to put his life on the line and citizens can shoot them at any moment, a police officer is not going to take much chance. Blame that on your country. Police officers are heroes in general and should be paid well. As should soldiers.
Does NYC not have a financial problem ? I do not know.

And again, it shows that when people live in poverty, and education is not possible as a means to get a good job. Most people will look at that guy with the big car and the money. That guy, usually a psychopath that turns into a dealer, pimp, crime lord. But he is rich and has power. In places where there is a lot of poverty, there will be people who look up to that guy. And will follow in his footsteps. And so , the spiral of crime will begin.
Again a problem created by the country.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,111
318
126
So when a person that beats another to death with only his fists, we blame him for his normal human anatomy (having fists) rather than the drug that temporarily fucked with his head? Plenty of people consume alcohol responsibly; of those that don't, plenty just pass out and vomit rather than assaulting or killing someone. What makes you think society accepts that kind of behavior? I mean, there are some Muslim countries out there with far worse income inequality, but probably thanks to a mixture of anti-alcohol laws and love for capital punishment, they have surprisingly low homicide rates. Indonesia, for example, has very high population density, a lot of poverty, and even the hot weather to encourage violence (studies show that summer and heat waves are strongly correlated with violence iirc), yet Indonesia beats most of Europe in terms of murder. In all fairness, they also have strict laws against firearms, but my point wrt that is how many factors there are that go into things like an entire nation's murder rate. Maybe the West doesn't need alcohol as much as we think we do?

I agree with many of your points on various influencing factors on homicides. I just don't see how a gun is anything more than just a tool that can be used to negative results, same as alcohol or anything else.
 
May 11, 2008
21,848
1,316
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So when a person that beats another to death with only his fists, we blame him for his normal human anatomy (having fists) rather than the drug that temporarily fucked with his head? Plenty of people consume alcohol responsibly; of those that don't, plenty just pass out and vomit rather than assaulting or killing someone. What makes you think society accepts that kind of behavior? I mean, there are some Muslim countries out there with far worse income inequality, but probably thanks to a mixture of anti-alcohol laws and love for capital punishment, they have surprisingly low homicide rates. Indonesia, for example, has very high population density, a lot of poverty, and even the hot weather to encourage violence (studies show that summer and heat waves are strongly correlated with violence iirc), yet Indonesia beats most of Europe in terms of murder. In all fairness, they also have strict laws against firearms, but my point wrt that is how many factors there are that go into things like an entire nation's murder rate. Maybe the West doesn't need alcohol as much as we think we do?

I agree with many of your points on various influencing factors on homicides. I just don't see how a gun is anything more than just a tool that can be used to negative results, same as alcohol or anything else.

You confuse two things. A gun does not mess with your mind unless you are a megalomaniac. Alcohol does mess with your mind. As does all drugs. For example, there are people that claim that weed can make you schizo. And that is not true unless you already have an underlying condition that is triggered by the weed. The same goes for all drugs. And as with all drugs, even weed can cause changes in the brain when used very long time. It depends on the person however how these changes will manifest it self. Some people are permanently laid back. Others become hostile when not having smoked for some time.

When people turn aggressive when consuming alcohol, there is something wrong with them. When you drink alcohol and become drunk, you loose your boundaries and reason.
Some people are uptight, so they drink a little bit to become relaxed in a social situation. but the keyword is little here. Responsibility. You are responsible for your actions, even when you are drunk. There is no excuse.
If you have a problem, if that may be stress, anger, anxiety or a real mental disorder, you should be aware that alcohol might worsen your problem.

Look, i agree that in the west, we might consume too much alcohol too often. But we do that because we live in a high stress civilization. Hence the stress related diseases that are too common here.

And in a lot of muslim countries, other substances are used instead of alcohol. It all comes down to the same thing. Muslims are also human, they also need something to let go, to relax. But then again, there is a lot of anger and frustration. If i look at the middle east, i see an Ireland of the recent past where Catholics and Protestants where willing to hurt and even kill each other while believing in the same god but having a different interpretation. And using the religion for political reasons.
The countries that do well, are usually oil nations with a lot of wealth. Crime exists everywhere where poverty exists. Nature is constantly rolling dices. With humans, that means brain configuration.
 

CraKaJaX

Lifer
Dec 26, 2004
11,905
148
101
A feeling of being utterly and completely trapped, and being tormented constantly by others.

Trapped animals can do some really crazy things. Humans are no different.

I agree. It's the nature of the beast. Though you have to think that at some point in this persons life, someone that is an acquaintance (friend, family, work, ANYTHING) would spot that this person as having a serious problem. I am sure that this is the case most of the time - but having that person seek out help for the twisted individual is where most people stop I think. "Yea, that's Johnny just being weird again....."
 

CraKaJaX

Lifer
Dec 26, 2004
11,905
148
101

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
afaik these kinds of rampage killings weren't even that common before the 60s or so, unless they just went unreported. Just look at this list of school massacres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(school_massacres)

1 in the 20s, 1 in the 50s, 2 in the 60s (interestingly on the same year), 3 in the 70s (2 also on the same year), 4 in the 80s, 11 in the 90s, 8 in the 00s, 7 so far this decade. What happened in society such that widely available guns used to be OK but now they're "archaic" and killing all our innocent little children?

Population growth, better news, worse mental treatment.

The one major study done showed that there has been no increase.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
What a dumb argument. You will be the first mass killer that sneezes on people in school ?

edit:
Volatile nature of people. Giving the opportunity and the mindset that it is oke to use those guns.
Guns do not kill people unless someone pulls the trigger. But when it is socially acceptable to pull that trigger... The threshold to do so becomes a lot lower. Especially when unhappy and not thinking over all the consequences.

You missed the point. The statistics behind actual law-abiding citizens, getting shot at isn't nearly as risky as any major activity you do every day that puts you at risk.

There were only ~11k deaths by homicide in 2013. If you strip out gang violence, drugs, other criminal activity (robbers...etc) the actual amount of deaths attributed to firearms is pretty low.

Your likelihood of being caught in a mass shooting is about as good as winning the lottery.
 

Blanky

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 2014
2,457
12
46
It is true mass shootings get all the news. For the same reason terrorism does instead of heart disease. We are numb to the occasional 1-2 deaths from the shootings that happen constantly in urban areas and are only awakened by mass shootings, even though odds of being caught in one are very low and few people die in them than the 1-2 regular occurrences.

/availability heuristic; people are terrible at analyzing risk
 

jaha2000

Senior member
Jul 28, 2008
949
0
0
Be another opportunity for our president to get the gun grabbers all fired up.
The only people this benifits? Stockholders for firearms and ammo companies.

Off to the store to buy more ammo before we see a sandy hook like shortage again!
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
618
121
Perhaps Zinfamous should be President. He'd be able to deal with this! But there's a catch, well, he should approve. Strip him of any Secret Service detail.

See how that shit works? Blow hard!
 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
5,664
201
106
What happened in society such that widely available guns used to be OK but now they're "archaic" and killing all our innocent little children?

Liberals happened to society and now they don't want to take responsibility for it. Instead they look for a way to blame the problem on an issue that they use to galvanize their base (conservatives do they same thing with different issues).

-KeithP
 

ALIVE

Golden Member
May 21, 2012
1,960
0
0
Rape is so common, if any woman that would shoot the rapist would do so, about 25 percent of the male population would die off immediately.

But i understand your point with your examples, when you live in an area where your nearest neighbor lives (for example) 10 miles away, a gun can be vital for survival. Even an animal with rabies is nothing but dangerous.

But in a city, there are too much people living together and emotions can run amok. In a city there is enough police to protect the people. Police officers should carry guns, but not only guns. People however in cities should not.
Police officers will not attack you out of nothing. And yes, corruption can happen but then again police officers are human too. And almost all police officers are fine people who serve, help and protect.

lol seriousy 25% of the population is rapist??'

well lets kill all the men because they can possible rape and get over with it.

if 25% of men where actually rapist then all the women would have been raped multiple times. Because he never catch the rapist at his first victim. So while there is rapist in society going with inflating numbers you are doing wrong for the actual rapes.

A rape is a rape id does not need fake numbers to make it worse. When we refer to a problem we need to refer it at their actual size and aspects. IF we stat throwing numbers for the impressions we just destroy the conversation.
 

ALIVE

Golden Member
May 21, 2012
1,960
0
0
afaik these kinds of rampage killings weren't even that common before the 60s or so, unless they just went unreported. Just look at this list of school massacres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(school_massacres)

1 in the 20s, 1 in the 50s, 2 in the 60s (interestingly on the same year), 3 in the 70s (2 also on the same year), 4 in the 80s, 11 in the 90s, 8 in the 00s, 7 so far this decade. What happened in society such that widely available guns used to be OK but now they're "archaic" and killing all our innocent little children?

go unreported!??!?!? i do not think that a attack in a school back in the times will not only be reported but also shock the nation. In contrast of today that you hear it and you just say ohhh another one.

society structure is not the same. availability on guns is the same. you have more violence in schools. so what changes in society and triggers this behavior. you know massacres is not a rain a you were unlucky you were outside it rained you got wet. there is a reason.

in all times society has people with medals problems. in my country we have the expression the village fool or crazy. so even in a society like a village it was common to have a crazy person.

so something changed, blaming guns or groups of people will not solve the problem. and what are we going to do if we can point the problem in a group?
put them in prison to be sure??? remove their rights just to be safe???

but that is racist. the pure form of racism. it does not matter which will be the targeted group.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,488
6,331
126
I know there have been some cases where people have done suicide encouragement via webcam & stuff, and of course are shocked when it happens. Then you have messed-up people like this:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/teen...ter-for-encouraging-friend-to-commit-suicide/

It's easy to be an anonymous jerk on the net, but every hateful thing you post online is affecting someone somewhere. A lot of people don't realize that or just don't care. I wonder how guilty those people feel after encouraging him to do something horrible & then he actually did it...why would you even encourage that behavior in the first place? Granted, a lot of those people were probably young teenagers who don't hesitate to cuss you out on Xbox with all sorts of hateful things, so you have a pretty wide range of audiences online I guess.

that is so fucking retarded. america - where no one wants to take responsibility so blame others.

sure what she did was evil and malicious, but against the law? fuck that. what about the whole freedom of speech thing? that's going out the window more and more every day.
 

ALIVE

Golden Member
May 21, 2012
1,960
0
0
that is so fucking retarded. america - where no one wants to take responsibility so blame others.

sure what she did was evil and malicious, but against the law? fuck that. what about the whole freedom of speech thing? that's going out the window more and more every day.

freedom of speech was abolished with political correct

the only reason we have so many words is to give us the possibility to express ourselves more accurate. the less words we loose ability in expressing ourselves. our day can not be good or bad it an also be great exceptional mediocrity awful i do not want to talk about it and many more.

the first lesson i learned when i went to school is that other kids will say what every they can thing to hurt me and because someone says something it does not make it true. if people can not tolerate and handle even that then they will never grow up and be able to face life.
 
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