OS X question

RichieZ

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2000
6,549
37
91
So I just got my ibook and I love it, everything just works, its super customizeable and I can access the shell.

Anyways I have a firewire hard disc that I use to store most of my files. Its formated in NTFS, I see that OS X can mount and read it, but is not able to write to the disk.

Is there anyway for me to get OS X to be able to write to a NTFS partiotion? Its a single 120GB partation, so I really don't want to convert it to FAT32
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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If this was Linux I would suggest the Captive NTFS driver, but I didn't even know OS X had native read capability for NTFS.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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I don't think it can write to NTFS. Check the darwin mailing lists though, there might be a way.
 

jemow2

Member
Jan 23, 2004
116
0
0
I have a 200GB Firewire drive that I shuffle back and forth between my ibook and PC with no problems. The drive is formatted to FAT32, I believe. Link
 

addragyn

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2000
1,198
0
0
You need to use FAT32. Just format the drive on the Mac and you'll be able to format it to the full capacity and use it on both machines.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Originally posted by: htmlmasterdave
Fat32... yuck Why is NTFS support such a problem anyways?

Microsoft isn't exactly giving away enough information on it.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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Why is NTFS support such a problem anyways?

Because MS won't give out the specs without making developers agree to restrictive licenses so they're stuck reverse engineering the filesystem which is a very long process.
 

addragyn

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2000
1,198
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WTF is wrong with FAT32 on a removeable drive?

OR

What is so great about using NTFS in that application?
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Originally posted by: addragyn
WTF is wrong with FAT32 on a removeable drive?

OR

What is so great about using NTFS in that application?

FAT32 is crap. NTFS offers basic features that are necessary these days.
 

sapiens74

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2004
2,162
0
0
I just format mine with DU and share it to my pc.

Most linux packages with work, at least with panther if you want to go that route.
 

addragyn

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2000
1,198
0
0
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

FAT32 is crap. NTFS offers basic features that are necessary these days.

On an external drive that is not permanently attached?
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Originally posted by: addragyn
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

FAT32 is crap. NTFS offers basic features that are necessary these days.

On an external drive that is not permanently attached?

Not permanently attached you say? Well in that case, my opinion is exactly the same.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
FAT32 is better in this specific application. I don't think you can create an NTFS partition in OSX, only mount one without any 3rd Party utilities. FAT32 will get the job done, and you can use it in just about any OS without the need for NTFS drivers. OSX's newfs_msdos can actually create partitions bigger than the standard FAT32 limits, so there shouldn't be any real issues using that filesystem for your removable drive.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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OSX's newfs_msdos can actually create partitions bigger than the standard FAT32 limits, so there shouldn't be any real issues using that filesystem for your removable drive.

You mean it'll create them larger than XP's built-in limitations. FAT is FAT, the limitations are there no matter what OS you use, for instance there's no way to create a file bigger than 4G on OSX just like you can't on Windows.
 

addragyn

Golden Member
Sep 21, 2000
1,198
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Being able to write to the drive is a *basic* feature.

Disk Utility will create larger than 32GB FAT32 partition. Just go to the Erase tad and select MS-Dos. Windows will see these partitions. I cannot attest to reliabilty but I've had no problems on OS X, XP or 2k. Test if you'lre sensitive to losing the data.


"NTFS offers basic features that are necessary these days."

What is so different about these days and those days?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Those days had crappy file systems, too. And they were crap back then, but you didn't have a choice. Now you do.


Remember back in the day when people would talk about "bit rot" and how operating systems would get gradually worse and worse, more and more unstable until files started corrupting and defrag utilities would freeze up?

Well "bit rot" doesn't exist. What it realy was, was in fact called "Fat32 sucks".

Anyways, the reason NTFS filesystems are a pain compatability wise is because Microsoft doesn't want it compatable. They simply dont' want to make it conveinent for people to use anything other then their stuff. It's how it is with almost everything they do.

Anyways Fat32 is adiquate for this purpose unless you do multimedia stuff. The file size limit is a kick in the pants for mpeg2 (DVD, DV, rip TV shows with mpeg2-enabled TV card, etc) stuff.
 

DnetMHZ

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2001
9,826
1
81
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: addragyn
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

FAT32 is crap. NTFS offers basic features that are necessary these days.

On an external drive that is not permanently attached?

Not permanently attached you say? Well in that case, my opinion is exactly the same.

I concur. :beer:

- M4H

I'd say you'd want NTFS even more on a removable drive just becuase of it's superior error recovery.
Error recovery is good on something you could potentially be carrying around/dropping/etc.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
how about running windows under qemu and using that to access the drive?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,204
126
Originally posted by: Childs
FAT32 is better in this specific application. I don't think you can create an NTFS partition in OSX, only mount one without any 3rd Party utilities. FAT32 will get the job done, and you can use it in just about any OS without the need for NTFS drivers. OSX's newfs_msdos can actually create partitions bigger than the standard FAT32 limits, so there shouldn't be any real issues using that filesystem for your removable drive.

"partitions bigger than the standard FAT32 limits"? You mean OSX can create FAT32 partitions in excess of 64 terabytes in size? Why would you want to?

All that we really need, is a way to chain together multiple FAT32 file cluster-chains, possibly at the directory level, just like LFNs, to allow breaking the 4GB file-size limit. Once that's done, and assuming that everyone can agree on that method, there's no real reason to ever use NTFS on a limited-access single-user workstation.

I wonder if the cluster-start field in LFN filename entries is actually used for anything. Hmm.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,204
126
Originally posted by: drag
Those days had crappy file systems, too. And they were crap back then, but you didn't have a choice. Now you do.

Remember back in the day when people would talk about "bit rot" and how operating systems would get gradually worse and worse, more and more unstable until files started corrupting and defrag utilities would freeze up?

Interesting that you should bring that up, drag, since as a matter of actual fact, FAT32 does not suffer from any such sort of condition that will render the system unbootable due to continued filesystem usage. (Other than performance slowdown.) NTFS, on the other hand, does. Severe cases of MFT fragmentation, can actually cause the system to not boot. IOW, NTFS can literally "paint itself into a corner". Just another way in which FAT32 is superior in its simplicity, lacking corner-cases that can lead to system failure.

Originally posted by: drag
Well "bit rot" doesn't exist. What it realy was, was in fact called "Fat32 sucks".
"Bit-rot" is real, and basically refers to data-corruption that is introduced, due to hardware failure, memory failure/instability, and essentially increases in entropy. In theory, it should never happen, but in the real world, it does.

Also, if NTFS suffers from a failure, MS recommends restoring from a backup, because they can't guarantee the integrity of user data stored in files after an "improper shutdown event".

Originally posted by: drag
Anyways, the reason NTFS filesystems are a pain compatibility wise is because Microsoft doesn't want it compatable. They simply dont' want to make it conveinent for people to use anything other then their stuff. It's how it is with almost everything they do.

That I'll heartily agree with. It's called "vendor lock-in". If they've got your data, locked away in their proprietary file formats and filesystems, then they can effectively hold you for "upgrade and interoperability ransom", in order for you to continue to access and share your data. It's how they make their money, and just one way how they enforce their NT OS (NTFS) and Office application suite (Office file formats) monopolies.

Originally posted by: drag
Anyways Fat32 is adiquate for this purpose unless you do multimedia stuff. The file size limit is a kick in the pants for mpeg2 (DVD, DV, rip TV shows with mpeg2-enabled TV card, etc) stuff.

Yep, that's pretty-much the singular greatest limitation with FAT32 - file sizes. If that could be fixed, FAT32 would be viable (although, certainly not 'desirable') for another ten years. Some apps (newest DVDShrink, for example) support application-based splitting of files into 2GB chunks. A reasonable idea, although not the best solution.

Btw, in all of my pro-FAT32 commentary, I'm not saying that it is the greatest thing ever; quite frankly, it does suck, but IMO it simply sucks less than the more-proprietary alternative, in many ways.

To make an analogy - consider vehicles, one made years ago, with a fairly simplistic design, mechnical throttle, carburator, etc. Now consider a more modern vehicle, where everything is computerized, there is nothing that you can easily work on, and instead have to take it to a shop and pay them $200 just to take a look at what's wrong, via some mfg-proprietary tool that reads the ECU codes. Which would you rather work on? Sure, the "old-fashioned" engine may not be as super-efficient with the gas mileage, as a computer-controlled one that can adjust the fuel-air mixture dynamically 100s of times a second, but if something *does* break, you can fix it easily, and diagnose it easily. Whereas, if the ECU-based car breaks - you have no choice but to bring it to the dealer/mechanic, becuase the vehicle mfg refuses to provide any information at all about how to diagnose and repair them. If they catch anyone doing so on their own, then they sue them.

FAT32 is like an old carburated car. NTFS is like some sleek new vehicle, with all of the latest computer-contolled bells and whistles, but you cannot access/fix it easily, in the case that something breaks.

(I suppose, to make the analogy complete - a "Mac car" would have the engine compartment welded shut completely, with two indicator lights on the dash, one with a green happy-face, and one with a red unhappy-face. OS X would be a car based on a heavy-duty humvee chassis/frame, with a sleek ferrari-like minivan-sized body, and would cost more than both combined. )
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
NTFS, on the other hand, does. Severe cases of MFT fragmentation, can actually cause the system to not boot. IOW, NTFS can literally "paint itself into a corner". Just another way in which FAT32 is superior in its simplicity, lacking corner-cases that can lead to system failure.

Oh please, stop pointing to problems fixed like 5 years ago. Please provide a link that says that can happen with Win2K or hell even NT 4.

Also, if NTFS suffers from a failure, MS recommends restoring from a backup, because they can't guarantee the integrity of user data stored in files after an "improper shutdown event".

The same non-guarantees are made with FAT.

That I'll heartily agree with. It's called "vendor lock-in". If they've got your data, locked away in their proprietary file formats and filesystems, then they can effectively hold you for "upgrade and interoperability ransom", in order for you to continue to access and share your data. It's how they make their money, and just one way how they enforce their NT OS (NTFS) and Office application suite (Office file formats) monopolies.

That I would agree with if it weren't for the fact that just about every OS can read NTFS just fine, it's the writing part that's tricky. So it's pretty simple to migrate from NTFS, it's just not possible to use it full time with a non-MS OS.

 

hopejr

Senior member
Nov 8, 2004
841
0
0
(I suppose, to make the analogy complete - a "Mac car" would have the engine compartment welded shut completely, with two indicator lights on the dash, one with a green happy-face, and one with a red unhappy-face. OS X would be a car based on a heavy-duty humvee chassis/frame, with a sleek ferrari-like minivan-sized body, and would cost more than both combined. )

ROFL. That's a funny one, but now with the completely user-serviceable iMac G5's, and even the PowerMac G5's, it's not quite accurate. Oh, and OS X doesn't cost as much as Windows, it's just the hardware
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: hopejr
(I suppose, to make the analogy complete - a "Mac car" would have the engine compartment welded shut completely, with two indicator lights on the dash, one with a green happy-face, and one with a red unhappy-face. OS X would be a car based on a heavy-duty humvee chassis/frame, with a sleek ferrari-like minivan-sized body, and would cost more than both combined. )

ROFL. That's a funny one, but now with the completely user-serviceable iMac G5's, and even the PowerMac G5's, it's not quite accurate. Oh, and OS X doesn't cost as much as Windows, it's just the hardware

Actually if you want to know the PowerG4's were the easiest computers to work on, ever. Such a wonderfull case design. Not the nicest looking thing, but the internal layout was a 100x better then any x86 PC ever made.
 
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