Our supposed EV future....(updated)

[Red Squirrel]

Not true for all of Canada: Quebec has a ban for new ICE car sales in 2035, B.C. has set for 2040, Montreal is banning ICE in downtown core in 2030, although no such country-wide ban currently officially proposed, there has been talk about 2040 at a federal level.
So it doesn't take "an incredible leap of imagination" to see that such laws are very likely coming to Ontario too.

Infrastructure laws for new construction are great, but it doesn't address existing buildings. And even here you can see a city here and there with their own plans and policies, i.e. an uncoordinated effort of various entities.
Yes, there's still 15-20 years, I'm not saying we need to panic, but retrofitting an existing building isn't an "afternoon's worth of laying some cable", and in condo-style buildings it will certainly be coming out of tenant's pockets, people do have a right to worry about it even if it's just about the cost. And if this is left to each building to figure it out, I can guarantee not every case will go smoothly or in time.

I find energy/green related policies here tend to depend a lot on who is in power and it changes every term. So these plans of 2030 or whatever are way too far ahead to mean anything. Minute conservatives win in a given province, those plans are out the window, then liberals win, they reinstate them, and back and forth it goes. Same with anything federal. Though I think whatever happens we will see a shift towards EVs especially if companies can manage to make them cheaper. Technically they should be cheaper, it's just that they don't have mass adoption yet so it's kind of a chicken and egg game. Once they can sell a decent amount the price per unit will drop quite drastically I think. They are also seen as a niche "luxery" thing right now. If that can die out and they can be treated as regular cars that will help too. me personally I just can't justify buying new, so I really hope we start seeing more EVs so that there can eventually be a used market. There is a bit of a used market down south like the GTA etc but not here. I get excited like a little girl seeing a pony if I even see a Tesla on the road here lol.

 

[iCyborg]

And more FUD. You act like unless every single parking spot in a city has a charger, it's some kind of epic disaster.

And more belittling the concerns of people living in buildings with the same argument "infrastructure will be built. in time. by someone".

 

[iCyborg]

I find energy/green related policies here tend to depend a lot on who is in power and it changes every term. So these plans of 2030 or whatever are way too far ahead to mean anything. Minute conservatives win in a given province, those plans are out the window, then liberals win, they reinstate them, and back and forth it goes. Same with anything federal.
...
There is a bit of a used market down south like the GTA etc but not here. I get excited like a little girl seeing a pony if I even see a Tesla on the road here lol.

And if greens come into power, we're f***.
Yeah, if the timelines turn out to be overly optimistic, most likely they will be pushed, but you can't always rely on the government to behave rationally. Then there's the history of large public infrastructure works being on time and not going over budget (and not causing a mess for months/years where it's being done).

EVs are not uncommon in GTA, especially Teslas, in a typical 20-25min drive I will see a couple. Maybe not especially Teslas, but those are easiest to identify as EVs. Though my area generally has lots of fancy cars, I've already seen a few Taycans.

 

[Torn Mind]

I find energy/green related policies here tend to depend a lot on who is in power and it changes every term. So these plans of 2030 or whatever are way too far ahead to mean anything. Minute conservatives win in a given province, those plans are out the window, then liberals win, they reinstate them, and back and forth it goes. Same with anything federal. Though I think whatever happens we will see a shift towards EVs especially if companies can manage to make them cheaper. Technically they should be cheaper, it's just that they don't have mass adoption yet so it's kind of a chicken and egg game. Once they can sell a decent amount the price per unit will drop quite drastically I think. They are also seen as a niche "luxery" thing right now. If that can die out and they can be treated as regular cars that will help too. me personally I just can't justify buying new, so I really hope we start seeing more EVs so that there can eventually be a used market. There is a bit of a used market down south like the GTA etc but not here. I get excited like a little girl seeing a pony if I even see a Tesla on the road here lol.

It will be a vehicle for the rich for a long while. That's why the wealthiest states can afford to push it as hard as they can. Yes, Californians have a right to install chargers on properties. They also have to pay for it if the landlord of the place haven't met certain requirements. So it essentially an added cost to the price tag of the vehicle, possibly with a every move made. Some tenants are well paid, but others clearly cannot afford the EV merry go round.

Electric Vehicle Charging Stations for California Landlords - Kimball Tirey & St. John LLP

Jamie Sternberg, Esq. Updated October, 2019 California law provides a framework for California tenants to request permission from their landlords to install electric vehicle charging stations. Those laws are found at Civil Code §1947.6 (residential tenancies) and Civil Code §1952.7...

www.kts-law.com

Condos are different because common area charging points are something everyone pays for. Some "condos" are not the high-rise multi families but actually townhouses called a condo.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I think it's proposal, but good for them. But you know they would probably even better to just work on car free zones. Those are awesome.

And more FUD. You act like unless every single parking spot in a city has a charger, it's some kind of epic disaster.

The new construction being required to have 100% EV charging is only part of the infrastructure drive that is going on, there is also charger installation incentives for older buildings, there is more chargers every day in every city, so even without a dedicated spot, you will more than likely be able to charge at a public charger, and charging speeds keep increasing as well, so you probably need less time at a public charger than you do today,

There was no "fear, uncertainty nor doubt" posted. If you want to disagree it is better to be constructive and not dismissive and judgemental.

and factor in that in 15-20 years there is a good chance that self driving EV Taxi service will drastically reduce car ownership as well, as it will probably be cheaper to just take a Robo-Taxi than it is to own a car.

This is already being hit from multiple angles, and we are still 15 years from a deadline. It really isn't a serious worry.

I mentioned this earlier. At first they will take our ICE cars away, then they will ban personal car ownership altogether and force everyone onto taxis or buses.

No thank you.

 

[Heartbreaker]

There was no "fear, uncertainty nor doubt" posted. If you want to disagree it is better to be constructive and not dismissive and judgemental.

Your original post is textbook FUD and full of inaccuracies. It's just standard anti-EV ranting.

I mentioned this earlier. At first they will take our ICE cars away, then they will ban personal car ownership altogether and force everyone onto taxis or buses.

Yeah, no FUD there.

"They" aren't taking away your personal car, it's about people realizing that they save significant money, by switching from an ownership model, to car sharing model, when self driving significantly drops the costs of car sharing.

When I lived in suburbs and worked in the city core, parking in the city core alone was ~$300 month, and many apartment building in the city you can pay near that to have a parking spot as well. That $600/month, or $7200/year just for parking. Add that to car payments, insurance, gas, maintenance, and you are looking at $10000 to $15000 per year to own your own car in the city.

Now if you can get self driving car sharing for $5000/year, you save a pile of money ditching your car, and many people will jump on that voluntarily.

It's already happening on the small scale, but the economics aren't that great for most people yet:

Lyft says nearly 250K of its passengers ditched a personal car in 2017 | TechCrunch

Lyft has a new report out detailing its 'economic impact' for 2017, and the document includes a lot of stats on its performance throughout the year. The

techcrunch.com

But if you eliminate the biggest expense (The driver) then the economics get much better for a LOT more people, and you don't have to deal with potentially annoying drivers.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Your original post is textbook FUD and full of inaccuracies. It's just standard anti-EV ranting.





Yeah, no FUD there.

"They" aren't taking away your personal car, it's about people realizing that they save significant money, by switching from an ownership model, to car sharing model, when self driving significantly drops the costs of car sharing.

When I lived in suburbs and worked in the city core, parking in the city core alone was ~$300 month, and many apartment building in the city you can pay near that to have a parking spot as well. That $600/month, or $7200/year just for parking. Add that to car payments, insurance, gas, maintenance, and you are looking at $10000 to $15000 per year to own your own car in the city.

Now if you can get self driving car sharing for $5000/year, you save a pile of money ditching your car, and many people will jump on that voluntarily.

You don't appear to understand anyone who disagrees with you.

Sad.

 

[Heartbreaker]

You don't appear to understand anyone who disagrees with you.

Sad.

Coming from you, that's a compliment, as you seem to disagree with nearly everyone, and can't even adjust your position when it's pointed out where you were incorrect.

 

[Commodus]

Adding to the transition: Volvo has announced that it'll go all-electric by 2030.

That's not completely surprising when Polestar will only produce EVs going forward, and Volvo is an upscale brand focused on safety and responsibility, but it's still a big deal. I wouldn't be shocked (har) if more brands follow suit and prompt accelerated development of the infrastructure needed to support them.

Sorry, Felix, but the transition to EVs is happening. You can do the right thing and get onboard, or watch as the world moves on without you.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Coming from you, that's a compliment, as you seem to disagree with nearly everyone, and can't even adjust your position when it's pointed out where you were incorrect.

Why am I incorrect? You are being absolutist.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Adding to the transition: Volvo has announced that it'll go all-electric by 2030.

That's not completely surprising when Polestar will only produce EVs going forward, and Volvo is an upscale brand focused on safety and responsibility, but it's still a big deal. I wouldn't be shocked (har) if more brands follow suit and prompt accelerated development of the infrastructure needed to support them.

Sorry, Felix, but the transition to EVs is happening. You can do the right thing and get onboard, or watch as the world moves on without you.

I'm just arguing for freedom of choice. I am actually intrigued by some EVs and hope one day to even buy one if I am so inclined.

For now I'm an ICE enthusiast.

 

[Commodus]

I'm just arguing for freedom of choice. I am actually intrigued by some EVs and hope one day to even buy one if I am so inclined.

For now I'm an ICE enthusiast.

Well, the environment won't particularly care about freedom of choice... and let's face it, the market is going in that EV direction regardless. It's just a question of whether you get ahead of the curve or go into it kicking and screaming.

I see government mandates a bit like JFK's "put someone on the Moon by the end of the decade" goal. It's a catalyst for something that was likely to happen regardless, but will now happen sooner to the benefit of everyone.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Why am I incorrect? You are being absolutist.

The whole part you edited into your first post was essentially debunked, when you posted it as a separate message, yet you edited and left debunked nonsense into your first post.

Your claim, that they are "going to take away our cars" is made up BS, that you never acknowledge.

Your position is a lot more absolutist with nonsense like that.

I am pointing out the inevitability of this change and that the FUD over infrastructure is just that, FUD. Infrastructure is already being tackled on multiple fronts 15-20 years ahead of any deadlines.

 

[FelixDeCat]

.....and so it begins....

A California city just voted to ban new gas stations as the state eyes an all-electric future

California plans to ban the sale of gas-powered cars by 2035. Petaluma's city council decided to outlaw the construction of new gas stations.

www.businessinsider.com

The first shot fired in the war against ICE transportation.

 

[Torn Mind]

.....and so it begins....

A California city just voted to ban new gas stations as the state eyes an all-electric future

California plans to ban the sale of gas-powered cars by 2035. Petaluma's city council decided to outlaw the construction of new gas stations.

www.businessinsider.com

The first shot fired in the war against ICE transportation.

Eh, not really a big deal. No new gas stations....

Old gas stations with plenty of traffic don't close.

 

[Dulanic]

I've owned my EV for a year and a half now. I have done 3 long distance trips in it. Overall very happy with my choice.

Total electricity cost has been $420, majority of that the long distance trips. At home the cost is very low. No maintenance costs at all so far. I change at home the majority of the time so it's just convenient.

Best part is it is downright fun to drive. I can only imagine how much better it will get from here.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I've owned my EV for a year and a half now. I have done 3 long distance trips in it. Overall very happy with my choice.

Total electricity cost has been $420, majority of that the long distance trips. At home the cost is very low. No maintenance costs at all so far. I change at home the majority of the time so it's just convenient.

Best part is it is downright fun to drive. I can only imagine how much better it will get from here.

Thanks Dulanic, I appreciate thoughtful insight from an actual EV owner.

Do you think the choice of owning one should be left to the consumer/marketplace?

 

[Heartbreaker]

Do you think the choice of owning one should be left to the consumer/marketplace?

You are beating a dead horse here. The world is moving to EVs whether you like it or not, and most will do it by choice before any deadline. But you likely have decades to keep driving ICE cars if you insist.

There are always hold outs, when the world moves on. You can be one if you want to. Heartland USA will likely only move on in 2040. You can buy the last ICE cars before the end of ICE sales.

With good maintenance, your brand new MY 2040 ICE car will last until 2055 or so.

If you are old enough, that might be past the end of your driving years, so you may never have to deal with owning an EV if it bothers you so much.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I do think they should push towards being all EV, BUT they need to make EVs more wildly available first. I can buy a decent ICE vehicle for under 15k on the used market right now. I want to be able to buy an EV on the used market for the same price range. Until that becomes reality I hope they don't force them. I really want an EV but they are just out of reach for me right now. I can't justify buying new. That's like 1/2 the cost of a house.

 

[ondma]

You are beating a dead horse here. The world is moving to EVs whether you like it or not, and most will do it by choice before any deadline. But you likely have decades to keep driving ICE cars if you insist.

There are always hold outs, when the world moves on. You can be one if you want to. Heartland USA will likely only move on in 2040. You can buy the last ICE cars before the end of ICE sales.

With good maintenance, your brand new MY 2040 ICE car will last until 2055 or so.

If you are old enough, that might be past the end of your driving years, so you may never have to deal with owning an EV if it bothers you so much.

Owning an EV wouldn't "bother" me at all, if I could get one for 25k, didnt have to worry about having the range cut by 50% in subzero weather, and it had 500 mile plus range. Whether you like it, or more accurately, are willing to admit it, EVs currently have serious disadvantages for some users. Hopefully, those will be addressed, especially the price, as more EVs come on line and used models become more readily available.

 

[iCyborg]

As per link above, Volvo is shifting to EV only from 2030, Jaguar said 2025, GM 2035, Audi said before 2030 for A4/6/8 and other models soon to follow.
ICE market for new cars post 2035 will be slim pickings...

 

[Heartbreaker]

Whether you like it, or more accurately, are willing to admit it, EVs currently have serious disadvantages for some users.

Never said or claimed otherwise.

 

[manly]

I do think they should push towards being all EV, BUT they need to make EVs more wildly available first. I can buy a decent ICE vehicle for under 15k on the used market right now. I want to be able to buy an EV on the used market for the same price range. Until that becomes reality I hope they don't force them. I really want an EV but they are just out of reach for me right now. I can't justify buying new. That's like 1/2 the cost of a house.

Thanks, Captain Obvious. Global EV sales were shy of 5% of new auto sales last year, and that includes PHEV. It'll be a while until you have a robust market of used EV cars, and longer yet before governments ban the sale of new ICE cars. Guys like the OP will be in a nursing home before they pry the ICE car keys from his cold hands.

 

[Torn Mind]

As per link above, Volvo is shifting to EV only from 2030, Jaguar said 2025, GM 2035, Audi said before 2030 for A4/6/8 and other models soon to follow.
ICE market for new cars post 2035 will be slim pickings...

GM couldn't make a 4-banger if their (customer's) life depended on it, literally

You hope the don't botch wiring and software like they did with their ignition modules. (but they probably will SOMEHOW).

 

[Dulanic]

Thanks Dulanic, I appreciate thoughtful insight from an actual EV owner.

Do you think the choice of owning one should be left to the consumer/marketplace?

This has been addressed by others, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. It is up to the consumer/marketplace. I do see EV's coming down to price parity with ICE vehicles within 5-7 years.

I do think they should push towards being all EV, BUT they need to make EVs more wildly available first. I can buy a decent ICE vehicle for under 15k on the used market right now. I want to be able to buy an EV on the used market for the same price range. Until that becomes reality I hope they don't force them. I really want an EV but they are just out of reach for me right now. I can't justify buying new. That's like 1/2 the cost of a house.

Agree, though I think a lot of people think the downsides are worse than they are. It costs more to be on the leading edge of a market always. Costs will keep coming down and down. It will get cheaper when they improve batteries even more by removing cobalt etc... I only bought it because of the fact that my employer gave me some cash towards it and the tax break. Used prices continue to be high mostly because demand and supply.

Having owned a EV, I found that there has been little to no downsides so far. There are the concerns I had and how they have been worked out.

• Range - I get ~250-300 miles of range and that is more than I'd ever need. If I travel long distance, it has had little impact on the overall trip time. I drove > 1000 miles I think twice, so 4 drives round trip. Yes, I had to stop to charge, but that just was times I would have already needed to stop for bathroom, lunch etc... and charging time is going down insanely fast. The newest chargers are 250kW. Within 10 years, I see it barely taking longer than filling up a gas tank.
• Range Loss - I've seen < 5% decrease in range, and most people don't see more than 10% in 5 years, that's not bad.
• Cold Weather - Yes, this has a impact, no question, but I've never had to adjust anything because of it. And now with heat pumps, this is even less of a impact.
• Where to charge? - These cars make it seriously easy by planning out exactly what to do on your trips. You know ahead of time what and where you need to go.

Now to the massive benefits I've seen:

• Maintenance - $0 so far. I use my brakes ummm once a drive? I totally see my breaks lasing 100,000 miles. I will need to change my cabin filter soon.
• Speed/Torque - They are just FUN to drive, the instant torque is just FUN. It is much more fun than my muscle cars growing up. Do I miss the sound of a V8? Sometimes, but it is more than made up for.
• Cost per mile - This has been a huge win for me. I've gone 16,000 miles at the total cost of ~$400. If I was still driving my gas car, that cost would have been closer to $1500. At home cost was only $178 over this time-frame, so the majority of the cost to me was from my trips. Those cost, while less than gas, a lot more than at home.