Oxidizied / flaking clear coat solution,

[ino uno soweno]

I sanded the clear coat on the rear bar and boot lid, orbital sander, p120, ( but if I was a new guy at this , I would start with p240, until you have the hang of it) when I get close to the paint I change over #1400 sanding disk, and just skim to the solid red colour, then #1500 sanding paper to finish off the clear coat,
Please note, when sanding clear coat, the dust is white, the paint dust is red, or whatever colour you are doing,, so it is real easy to tell when it hits paint, then I buff as quick as I can, because buffing brings out the faults, I really like Farecla G3 Regular grade, paste compound, ( because I can buff clean the tail light lenses, as can be seen in the picture,)
After it is buffed,
I use #1500 on the sander, and sand again until all small orange peel bumps are flat,sand all lumps or bumps, so far I have not really taken much of the paint thickness , Due to the fact that the sander is variable speed, yes I give it all it has got on the flat horizontal areas, but the concave sections like under the taillights it is easy to sand on a angle at very low RPM< , to the point where the disk is not spinning, please note I place the sanding pad slightly off set, and the sand paper sticks out a 1/16&#8221; on one side, so when I am sanding a concave shape, or in gaps and corners, I turn the disc around until the slightly protruding sand paper edge is touching the paint, and run the sander on the lowest RPM, the disc does not turn, but still vibrates and I work it up and down, and methodically work in and around each corner, I even turn the sander upside down and sand the high side of the concave, I am only sanding with the leading edge with minimum distortion of the soft disc padding,(I use my buff the same way, ) then I general hand rub, with dry #1500, always wipping the dust off to see and check the surface,
Tip with sanding oxidized or flaking clear coat, is it sands down a white clear coat colour very quick,P120-p140 oxidized clear coat is damage and soft depending on how badly damaged, until it is nearly about to break into the paint, then it " let&#8217;s go ", the last layer of clear has UV damage and is not really attached to the paint surface in most places,, Like it should be, You got to watch for that point, or dig in to the colour,
With that in mind I should mention that when sanding flat surface or horizontal surfaces, there should be no down ward pressure on the machine, they sand very well under their own weight, P120-P240, you only have to keep your hand on top of it to guide it, and both hands to hold while working vertical surfaces, no need to force the machine, and these sanders work much better if the holes on the sanding pad line up with the holes in the head, and i hold a dust cloth in my other hand, to remove the excess dust, which stops the sanding pad from clogging, and cut quicker for longer,

I Work the sander in one direction for the first cut, over a small area, then wipe the dust off and look over the hole area,then change direction and sand, Looking for dents that are &#8220;sticking up&#8221;, and not in, if you&#8217;re not watching you can quickly hit a meta spotl, I usually cover an area thinking I have passed the sander over the surface 3-4 times over the area,, then I wipe it clean, and check the surface, when I find a high dent, on the bonnet in particular, I use the clean flat end of a screw driver, to feel ( not look ) for a high dent, then press down gently but firmly, then I try to feel the bump again with the screw driver,, do same again if required, if not I just run the sander over it, and level the surface, but in my opinion is it is all about &#8220; even&#8221; sanding over small areas, few feet square, never start sanding on the flaking edge or heavy oxidized areas, start on what looks to be good clear coat and work out or in to the flaking edges, and do not sand areas of exposed paint until all the clear coat is almost removed,

Please note the black arrows show a pinkish colour, this is a fine layer of clear coat still there, the white arrows show that I started sanding then remembered to take this picture,

Back asap,

 

[ino uno soweno]

Above pic shows the rear has been machine sanded with#1500, also shows the 3M Foam polishing pad glaze, dark, no silicone, and my favourite polymer polish protection, Once a year car polish is only available at Autobahn, will finish buffing asap,

 

[ino uno soweno]

 

[ino uno soweno]

Sorry,
This pic shows the roof, removing the clear coat,
Please note, bottom of pic shows right hand side of car, my method of removing clear coat is to “hand hold” rough sand paper ( no block ) and scratch deep into the surface, the thought behind is , 1, I am trying to leave deep starches, I know most scratches will all be of same depth , I am removing the clear coat “evenly” over small areas, as well wiping the all dust off, finding raised dints is easy,



I am having more distractions, so back asap.

 

[phucheneh]

How does sanding without a block make it 'more even'?

And no offense, but this is dumb. You realize how soft basecoat is, right? It's not catalyzed/hardened like clearcoat.

 

[ino uno soweno]

How does sanding without a block make it 'more even'?

Arr thanks for high lighting that. ; I was trying to get that point across, did not sound right to me either,

If you could agree that sanding with a block removes the high spots first, which would mean that the thickness of clear coat surface was being sanded according to the high spots first?.

Resulting in thin clear coat over the high spots, which are and will showing up first?
And leaving thicker and varying thickness of layers of clear coat, in amongst the high spot, which is hard to machine sand, cause I keep backing over the high spots, with sander by accident,
On the other hand as to say, and my line of thought and actions is If I do not use the block, and only I use even pressure on 8 fingers across the hand held paper, my fingers follow and scratch the surface of the existing contours across say 10” wide, and cause and only cause say 40 micron deep starches (around ½ the thickness of a human hair,) deep scratches, evenly across say 2’ x 2’ square area on the roof, or bonnet following the existing contours, and no thought of ?? Flatness,
I then know I can sand the area quickly with P120, no pressure forcing down on the machine, I am just guiding the sander, 5” dia soft sanding foam rubber sort of flating thing, also follows the surface contours, and rip sands quickly, until the scratches are removed, then I stop sanding, and scratch a new lot of scratches, I mean I can raise the RPM to max and “quickly sand an even layer, according to the contours of the surface, maybe 20 micron, evenly removed over 2’ x 2’ square surface, easy and quickly, I do that ? 2-4 times and over 2’ x 2’ surface area the white clear coat dust changes to a browner gum colour, that is a little gummy to sand, before or just on top of the colour layer,, I remove most of the gum with p120, then change sanding pads to #400 or # 800 to get on the paint only surface, when the dust just changes to bright red I back off, and change to #1200-#1500 over the 2’ x 2’ area, then quick buff and quick machine sand #1500 and I can see and quickly sand the small bumps in the original paint surface, I could at that point use a block flat sand, but I am not because I would prefer to leave as much paint there as possible, it is good paint, nice bright colour, so I am going for the smooth contours or the original smooth contours, and “ even” paint depth over the whole car,
As opposed to flat blocked thin patchy look on the car, more “ even to the contour of the surface”, not more even flat,
If it was a stretch flat clear coat long limo with a flaky problem, the above method should be applied, starting with a blocked flat paint job, would result in a block flat contour removal of the clear coat, at colour , if flat contours is the right words, ??

And no offense, but this is dumb. You realize how soft basecoat is, right? It's not catalyzed/hardened like clearcoat.

And no offence to you either but my experience is mainly with Acrylic, Urethane with harder, and considering I basically only tec paint my cars with the POR-15 range of paints, Morristown, NJ, USA, last 7 years, at a big bill, I do not think, according to what they say, and that is the primer under coat are 2 pack hard, the colour coat is 2 pack hard, the clear coat is 2 pack hard, we do not use the word soft, and I do not lend myself to rumours that hard layers of hard on hard paint tend to delaminate, because I tend over rough up the clean metal surface right at the start knowing POr-15 is self levelling even on vertical surfaces, yes, that surprised me too, and tough too, but you got to put 3-4 coats next to wet, that is long days painting,
So do you mean the base coat is the colour, in base colour, or base coat as primers and filler type under coat, ??.
Ok, back to the picture, and please note this side of the roof shows the scratches, the other side of the roof shows clear coat removed with #1500 machine sand shine, not buffed yet, around that is light coloured clear coat #400 sanded feathering off to shinny strip down the middle which is flaking bubbles quick sanded and buffed bright shine,
Next pic shows all or almost all clear coat removed, which I am having trouble with photobucket, so I will post reply, and pica sap,
Next pic after that did not turn out , but would show parts of the roof again buffed and shinny which reveal small scratches along the top of the screen, and other small probs, which I will sand out again, with #1500, and buff again to check for any other missed spots, or scratches, then a final sand with #2000, and final or second final buff with M3 foam buffing compound,
Back asap.

 

[ino uno soweno]

 

[ino uno soweno]

I did manage to find the roughly buffed roof picture, shows lots of clouds reflecting, but it does show me a few light scratches,

testing

 

[ino uno soweno]

Next is cloudy sky picture of the previously scratched bonnet, the previous scratches were only in the clear coat so they sanded out quick and easy, there are no scratches left in the bonnet, as can be seen,

 

[Soundmanred]

Loving the 2+2 nonmatching rims.
Must be a trend with kids these days.

 

[ino uno soweno]

Loving the 2+2 nonmatching rims.
Must be a trend with kids these days.

:biggrin: yes, nice aye,


17" wheel are in the shed, we just don't want to get the dirty yet,

 

[ino uno soweno]

Please note, left side taillight shows reflection of building, the 3M buffing compound is excellent for buffing tail plastic lights and plastic head light covers , they are a mirror finish, I re sanded the rear end of the car with #1500 -#2000 then buffed it, ,

Please note, #1500 is sand paper, but #2000 is a great polishing tool, #2000 is so fine it results in a very good shine, almost as good as buffing compound, and is excellent tool or way of finding imperfections,
A tip for new guys is when sanding with a machine, the sanding pad becomes“ clogged “ with build up materials, a real easy way to clean the pad is keep a clean soft wire brush or stainless steel scourer pad handy, and just touch it on the spinning sanding pad, and like magic, the clog bits just clean off, it has been my observation that regular cleaning #1200 through to #2000 makes them last much longer, they sand / cut cleaner and faster, and again, for much “ longer”,

 

[sontakke]

I am extremely impressed. However, the point raised earlier stands. You have to have something to protect all of the hard work that you have put in. That basecoat needs clear coat as protectant. Do you plan on getting it cleared after you have fixed it?

May be you can find some of the newer high tech sealants to protect the paint without clear coat but it will be short lived. I guess you could reapply the sealant ever few months and keep the car looking new forever. Is that what you plan to do?

 

[phucheneh]

I am also impressed. But still think you will be waxing/polishing/sealing (some combination of) more than a Maaco enamel paint job. If they even still do that...they've probably moved on to single stage urethane for cheapo sprays.

 

[ino uno soweno]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks guys, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]First please let me make one thing clear, that is I have actually only done about 5 hours work on the car, so far over the last ? 7 days, I am not working all day on the car, and lucky to get more then ½ hour work on it a day, I just have lots of other stuff to do, what I am doing is very little at all hand rubbing, a lot of quick methodical machine sanding and buffing, and not physical, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As to a protective coating, I prefer what I have experienced for over 17 years, during which I have experienced many times, where I apply this coating over a car, and apply another coat 3 months later as manufactures specification, ( I believe this coating gets harder with time and strong sun, say maybe 5,months,) and I believe it gets harder than any base colour coat, and or any 2 pk clear coating, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] I myself wash my and family cars mostly by car wash using the big broom to cover the car suds and scrub, ( I do look and I do not see scuff marks from the broom, ) then high pressure water blast the lot off, and then shammy it dry, ( what I call a quick wash ) I continue to do same for the next 2-3 years, applying a new coating around 12 -18 months, 20mins applying and removing, very easy, during that period I do not apply any wax, or other polish and quite often, I do just wipe or dust it clean from dust and bird shits with a microfiber cloth which is finely abrasive, my observation is the microfiber rips through road grim, everything, when I hand wash a car with this hard protective coating, I use a micro fibre cloth instead of a sponge, which appears to buff the shine brighter, and again shammy dry, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Using 80x magnification, I can see and have observed oxidization on paint , plastics, metals for over 30 years, I have observed under high magnification, oxidization right from the beginning, while still looks shinny and undamaged to the eye, I have also observed under high imagination polymer oxidization on the surface of this coating in about 8 - 14months, but I also observed that the microfiber cloth is most suited to removal of that oxidized polymer molecules, ( ions ) the same way I have shown buffing with a fine compound removes surface oxidization on paint, and shines the surface, and buffing with same fine compound also removes oxidization on plastic taillights, and shines the surface, same as buffing alloy removes oxidization and shines the surface, so my line of thought is I buff the hard polymer surface with the microfiber cloth, every time I wipe it or wash the coating car, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One other relevant point with this protective coating is the zinc cross linked technology, [/FONT]
My belief is zinc oxide reflects and scatters UV radiation,
Zinc absorbs UV radiation via a process of electron excitation called band-gap absorption. Since energy always has to go somewhere, and UV is quite strong, zinc absorbs UV and turns UV radiation into comparably harmless infrared, which it disposes of as heat. With proven long term aspects,
Meaning that UV radiation only acts and causes oxidization on the polymer surface only, and from my observations under high magnification that oxidization is removed by washing the car with a slightly abrasive microfiber cloth,
This coating is thin, perhaps 1/30th the thickness of a factory clear coat thickness, and can easy be removed if required, by buffing with med grade, ( no sanding required, ), [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is actually a blend of advanced polymers that creates a superior protective layer to your car’s finish while adding a deep gloss. Nu Finish uses zinc cross-linking technology that bonds to your car’s paint, giving it a full year’s worth of protection in just one application. A surface treated with Nu Finish will continue to bead water even after 52 automatic car washes.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.nufinish.com/car-care/car-wax-vs-car-polish[/FONT]
Something , I have some confusion about is the word “ soft “, the reason why I am confused is that the paint we are specifically referring to above is a off the gun 2k paint and a 2k clear coat, so there is a special hardener added to the base colour paint coating, to make it hard, ??. and cannot in my mind be compared to word soft, if you were to ask me if the clear coat on this car is harder to sand than the base colour coat, My thoughts are based on my experience in painting this paint and my observations of two pack paint applications for many years,
That is the colour base coat can be a single thin layer off the gun, because it will have a clear coat cover, 3-4 times thicker then the base colour coat for protection, the mind set being the thick clear coat will protect the thin base coat,, so when I am sanding flaky or oxidized clear coat, off base colour coat, I remember that the thin coat of base colour coat will sand through very quick because it is so thin, not really because it is so soft, but because it is thin, please also note, human nature is a major factor when considering aftermarket resprays, and specifically where the paint might be thicker or thinner on any given surface on a aftermarket resprayed car, simply because there are quality control people behind the spray painter to make sure there is a constant thickness over the body,
Please note I checked the damaged front guards and paint chips on the car, and noted the base colour coat is fairly thick, as is the clear top coat,
No work on the car today, just rain,

 

[ino uno soweno]

I am extremely impressed. However, the point raised earlier stands. You have to have something to protect all of the hard work that you have put in. That basecoat needs clear coat as protectant. Do you plan on getting it cleared after you have fixed it?

May be you can find some of the newer high tech sealants to protect the paint without clear coat but it will be short lived. I guess you could reapply the sealant ever few months and keep the car looking new forever. Is that what you plan to do?

07-16-2013 04:54 PM phucheneh I am also impressed. But still think you will be waxing/polishing/sealing (some combination of) more than a Maaco enamel paint job. If they even still do that...they've probably moved on to single stage urethane for cheapo sprays.


Any feed back from you guys please,

 

[ino uno soweno]

 

[ino uno soweno]

07-16-2013 04:54 PM phucheneh I am also impressed. But still think you will be waxing/polishing/sealing (some combination of) more than a Maaco enamel paint job. If they even still do that...they've probably moved on to single stage urethane for cheapo sprays.



The above pic shows a buffed clean roof, please note the reflection of the stainless steel scour pad, the used white /red pink microfiber cloths, ( 40 cloths, $12 at Masters) the reflection of the 80x stereoscope, you can see the eye cups in the reflection, the reflection of the small silver and black object, is a Miniature Jewellers 10x single eye magnification device, ( $12 ) the larger silver cylinder is the battery holder and light, ( has a million uses, including checking and monitoring actual metal grindings when doing your own changing oil, wear on disassembled metal parts, removing splitters from skin, ) heaps more, please note all reflections are mirror image, in direct but weak sun light,

I have in the past 15 years used the above magnification to observe small tests on how hard is this polymer surface compared to the slightly abrasive materials such as microfiber cloth, results were very fine rubbing marks can be made to dull the shine using too much force, but those can be buffed up again with much less force, best used to dry dust and buff, the microfibers swallow dust particles which removes dust factor and no stretching, vertically a dust off dry wash from storage, excellent for bucket wash,
Next is the stainless steel mesh pad, which dulls the polished polymer surfaces easy with some pressure, and also again buffs to the best shine, and removes tougher grime, mainly a lot of light buffing on a polished surface, please note, each s/s strand is thin and wide,
Steel wool is too fine and Sharpe for any paint, just polishes dull, and will not buff up again, please note no steel wool on paint, however stainless steel is known to polish some alloys, perhaps copper , ,
So those are 2 good slightly abrasive materials that will not scratch the polymer, but will scraps most everything including slightly oxidized polymer ions clean off the surface,

 

[ino uno soweno]

I also like a good leather animal skin shammy, one that squeals when you rub it on paint as it is drying, I am reminded of the barber that quickly sharpens a fine metal cut throat razor with leather, only leather strap, so there is a abrasive effect from leather on a surface like paint that does not scratch or dull the surface except under extreme pressure, but still mildly abrasive, enough polish a good quality hard metal very smooth and sharp, and is directly related to,
Another line of thought and fact is as you drive along your paint is continually bombarded with “ microscopic " free floating polution, so small particules stay and hang in the air, sap from plants containing toxic heavy metals,, bug guts, bird shut, road grime, most are chemically active, themselves in an oxidizing state, and some immediately reacting with the surface of your paint, some stronger but take longer, that a car wash won’t remove, and the start of surface oxidization of car waxes and clear coat very quickly , all pumped up by UV radiation on every good hot day,,
Just to give you my idea of the effect of oxidization, please imagine a plastic bumper held on with rusty bolt and a rusty washer, and the metal washer is corroded behind the washer, where it lays on plastic, once you get bolt unlocked and out the washer is often a bit stuck to the plastic, this bond is the visible appearance of rust stain impregnated in to the plastic surface where the washer was located, , under magnification, shows the oxidizing metal has oxidized plastic on the surface, as opposed to removal of a not rusty clean washer which just shows washer imprint and clean flattened shinny plastic,
Also there is the situation where work ute “paint “ is often covered in fine air born metal grinding dust, the hole ute gets bad surface oxidization, small brown rust dots everywhere, very quickly,


Please note I am referring to a seasoned and cured polymer coating, perhaps at least 3 months old, not a fresh polymer coat as seen on the red GT4, which I will soon give another coat when the whole car is finished, I also use the s/s pad to wipe off machine sanded dust, which can get a little hard packed, for the microfiber cloth to remove, but the s/s pad removes fine sanding marks if ya press a little harder while I am sanding, also cleans the sanding pad quickly,
[FONT=&quot]UPDATE on car, some pics, some buffing, rained most all day yesterday.

Please note, to those of you who have tried Once a year car polish, and are not happy, please try my tips cause it has been my experience over the last 6 years, pictures coming, 2007 -2013,





[/FONT]

 

[ino uno soweno]

So we are focusing on
May be you can find some of the newer high tech sealants to protect the paint without clear coat but it will be short lived. I guess you could reapply the sealant ever few months and keep the car looking new forever. Is that what you plan to do?[/QUOTE]
Please note, I applied this polymer coating to this wagon, 2007, and again in 2009, and parked it here 2010, it looked clean and shinny then,
The wagon has no clear coat as per standard, never been repainted or repaired, 68,000k, as can be seen there is no shine, and please note the wiper arm is beginning rust. And small plastic strip has crept along and out of position,

 

[ino uno soweno]

 

[ino uno soweno]

[FONT=&quot]Plastic and paint show oxidization, and growths,??.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Plastic roof strip is twisted from sun damage, thick oxidization on the paint, and not wash for about 4 years,[/FONT]

 

[ino uno soweno]

It is in the bone yard,

 

[ino uno soweno]

PIc 1,Shows bucket with dishwashing liquid and water, shammy and microfiber cloth, please note, built up grim and metal dusts rust spots on the surface of bonnet and guard,

 

[ino uno soweno]

Pic 2,Shows guard and half bonnet up to the small black plastic window washer jet, have been washed down, and buffed with microfiber cloth, and dried with the shammy, when dry, I rubbed /buffed with a squeezed out damp shammy, the rest of the bonnet is as is and un washed last 4 years,,