Pakistan and Osama Bin Laden

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
The first question to ask, is where did this notion come from that Pakistan was a US ally or an enemy?

After 911, the GWB needed a land route into Afghanistan. The list of options was short, either Pakistan or gasp Iran.

After taking a large bribe in military aid, the military dictator of Pakistan in Musharrif, leased to the USA a Pakistani land route into Afghanistan, and return the USA had agreed, they would confine any military actions to only Afghanistan. And the US also
promised to fix up Afghanistan in jig time, so the profitable Pakistani trade routes to the West and North permitted by the Taliban could be rapidly restored. And it was those very trade routes that explained why the ISI had formerly supported the Taliban.

But point being, there was never any alliance implied when the USA just leased a Pakistani road. And now that the USA has got the man they came for, its possible that Pakistan may terminate its lease, and say Nato go home. Because the whole Nato occupation of Afghanistan has had the net effect of badly destabilizing Pakistan.

In terms of the bulk of modern Pakistan falling under Al-Quida control, the point is and remains, the Taliban and Al-Quida message only sells in the remote and primitive Tribal areas of Pakistan. And at that, the Pakistani Tribal areas hold but a tiny fraction of the some 165 million population.

All good points.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
It has been widely reported that Dawood is also living in plain sight in a manion in Pakistan. Where did you read that he funded the building of the mansion and gave them a loan so the railways can continue to operate?

he did not fund the building of the mansion. He supports the people living in there

regarding the loan to pak railways. The article goes into specific numbers . IBN live is a subsidiary of CNN and so it isnt some crackpot website.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/will-dawood-ibrahim-save-pakistan-railways/140197-3.html

Also additional info. The house where UBL was spawn camp killed with a headshot was previously a ISI safe house. again it was previously a ISI official safe house. Investigations by Al Jazeera and Gulfnews reveal

http://amerpundit.com/2011/05/02/report-bin-ladens-compound-once-isi-safehouse/

The compound in Abbottabad where Osama Bin Laden was killed was once used as a safe house by Pakistan’s premier intelligence agency ISI, Gulf News has learnt.

“This area had been used as ISI’s safe house, but it was not under their use any more because they keep on changing their locations,” a senior intelligence official confided to Gulf News. However, he did not reveal when and for how long it was used by the ISI operatives. Another official cautiously said “it may not be the same house but the same compound or area used by the ISI”.

The official also confirmed that the house was rented out by Afghan nationals and is not owned by the government. The house is located just 800 metres away from the Pakistan Military Academy and some former senior military officials live nearby.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
why the hell would he make himself stick out like a sore thumb by building the biggest home with 20 ft high walls in a known terrorist sanctuary?
dumb...

The guy who evaded many traps would only live next to a army base , t if he had ironclad guarantees from ISI/ Pak Army that he would be safe. why else would he live in a town that is a garrison town.

That area is pretty well off and access is controlled. so you think the security wouldnt have figured out for 5 years that some funny business was going on. This is Pakistan.. everyone likes to talk and gossip at the nearest chaiwallah. fuck i wish I was living in that town. I would have got 50 mil and a US passport.damm..why wasnt I a pakistani living in abbotabad.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
7 years ago, I got a warning from a mod coz I said OBL was in pakistan and that place has to be nuked. Finally good to see that I have been proved right.. woohoo
 

cganesh75

Elite Member | For Sale/Trade
Super Moderator
Oct 8, 2005
9,541
34
101
7 years ago, I got a warning from a mod coz I said OBL was in pakistan and that place has to be nuked. Finally good to see that I have been proved right.. woohoo

i doubt you got warned for saying he is in pakistan, but probably for saying that pakistan needs to be nuked
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
The first question to ask, is where did this notion come from that Pakistan was a US ally or an enemy?

After 911, the GWB needed a land route into Afghanistan. The list of options was short, either Pakistan or gasp Iran.

After taking a large bribe in military aid, the military dictator of Pakistan in Musharrif, leased to the USA a Pakistani land route into Afghanistan, and return the USA had agreed, they would confine any military actions to only Afghanistan. And the US also
promised to fix up Afghanistan in jig time, so the profitable Pakistani trade routes to the West and North permitted by the Taliban could be rapidly restored. And it was those very trade routes that explained why the ISI had formerly supported the Taliban.

But point being, there was never any alliance implied when the USA just leased a Pakistani road. And now that the USA has got the man they came for, its possible that Pakistan may terminate its lease, and say Nato go home. Because the whole Nato occupation of Afghanistan has had the net effect of badly destabilizing Pakistan.

In terms of the bulk of modern Pakistan falling under Al-Quida control, the point is and remains, the Taliban and Al-Quida message only sells in the remote and primitive Tribal areas of Pakistan. And at that, the Pakistani Tribal areas hold but a tiny fraction of the some 165 million population.

I don't get it.US made pakistan a MNNA [ Major Non NAto Ally] in 2004 and that's when the taps were turned on,

F-16's , Apache's, were given to Pakistan for free to attack the taliban airforce.

Harpoons were given to Pakistan for free to fight the taliban navy.

HAARM missiles, sidewinders, AIM C were given to explicitly engage the taliban airforce and EW systems.

PLus atleast a billion in free cash every year to the military. so your first line is false. I mostly agree with what you say about Afghanistan, but not this.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
i doubt you got warned for saying he is in pakistan, but probably for saying that pakistan needs to be nuked

yup I know man..hahah, i hope when they find zawahari, mullah omar and Ilyas Kashmiri, they MOAB the shit out of these terrorist assholes and dont care abt the pakistani bases they live in/ next to.
 

Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,989
20
81
The immediate post-announcement focus is rightly on celebrating the retribution shot directly into OBL's face by a Navy Seal.

However, let's also discuss what this means for the US and Pakistan. Obama's speech obviously pointed to the positive aspects regarding Pakistan, their cooperation and that the death benefited Pakistan too.

I am mostly wondering how the fuck Pakistani citizens and officials allowed OBL to hide himself from the US in a populated part of their country. I don't believe people are good at keeping secrets anywhere in the world. If OBL was living in a densely populated part of pakistan, that basically means thousands of people through the grape vine intentionally chose to aid and abet him in his hiding. Fuck them. I'd also like to know more about the involvement of the Pakistani intelligence in this operation. Maybe they can save some face if they actually were the main source of the intelligence that lead to the operation but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.

My gut is telling me "fuck Pakistan" and that we should start treating the country as an enemy and realign ourselves with India (who can't all be as extreme as our Baasha.) In the end it depends on how much the current Pakistani government is really helping us and the details of this operation will shed light on that. If they can't show that they were fully instrumental in killing Obama they need to be cast aside as enemies. I think it's pretty clear their population is at odds with the US but that's another story.

The untouchable finds every excuse to slip in a moronic extrapolation of my views!

Regardless, both UK and the US have been absolute idiots in dealing with Pakistan.

Pakistan, as well as Bangladesh (used to be East Pakistan till 1971), was founded on hate, the hate of non-Muslims, and especially towards Hindus. That is why the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, said, "The Muslims of India are a nation (separate from the Hindus)!" They did not want to coexist with others and insisted that the hallowed land that is Bharat be vivisected.

Any ideology, nation, or creed where hate is the basis, will never stand on solid ground. Pakistan, in its very recent history, has fabricated its entire history and fooled its people into thinking that they are indeed a "separate" people, culture, and origin and are thus "superior" to their neighbors in India. In fact, the word Pakistan itself means 'Land of the Pure'. Folks who lived for centuries as neighbors became bitter enemies when the partition of India occurred in 1947 and more than a million people died as a result. Too bad no movies of the Partition made it to the world stage and "oscars".

Ever since the creation of Pakistan in 1947, the USA and UK have supported it monetarily, militarily, and diplomatically and continue to do so even today despite knowing they abet, support, and give refuge to terrorists who wish to do harm to India and other countries. In fact, there is mounting evidence that the fanatical filth in the west (missionary vermin) support the secessionist movements in India such as the Naxalites (communists), Kashmiri terrorists sponsored by Pakistan (Islamist terrorists), and Christian terrorists in North-Eastern India (Nagaland, Tripura, Manipur) under the guise of humanitarian "aid" and 'development'.

It is because of India's principled non-aligned stand that the US took exception and decided to give credence to Pakistan. Despite numerous instances of cross-border terrorism in India for decades, the US and UK turned a blind eye and kept harping about "human rights abuses" in Kashmir supposedly perpetrated by Indian military personnel! Of course when it suits them, these same civilians became "insurgents" and "terrorists".

For decades India has been dogmatically stating that Pakistan is engaging in support and export of terrorism to no avail from these so-called bastions of freedom in the west (LOL). In fact, when India conducted its nuclear tests in Pokhran in 1998, the US had the audacity to impose sanctions on India! Of course, that didn't mean jack shit to India and they went ahead with it anyway! In 2001, when a terrorist attack happens on US soil, it somehow becomes a "world" issue. Even then, when all evidence pointed towards Pakistan and its ISI, the US invades Iraq of all places.

To anyone who thinks that the Pakistani government and its ISI did not know of bin Laden's whereabouts needs to have his head checked. The town of Abbottabad being in close proximity to the capital Islamabad and being an affluent area where ex-Pakistan military officials lived, there is no doubt that the ISI and some elements in the Pakistani government were shielding him.

The US gives billions of dollars in "aid" to Pakistan and they divert a large portion of it to train terrorists to attack India in Kashmir and other places. This has gone on for decades. In fact, the US has given a whole fleet of F16 fighter jets to Pakistan recently to fight "terrorists"! LOL.. who live in mud-huts and have rifles from the 1970s. Right, one almost wonders if the west is using Pakistan as a proxy to wage war against India in order to weaken its astronomical growth and inevitable rise back to the global stage as it was prior to the 1800s.

In the end of course, as the motto of India says, Satyameva Jayate (Truth will Triumph)!

On that note, I am supremely glad India rejected the US fighter jet deal since the US always has strings attached to every deal. India is in a great position now to pick and choose whom it deals with. Next to building its arsenal itself, India has to choose to ally itself with those who at the least do not support her enemies like Pakistan and China.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
More and more evidence against Pakistan. Some of us have been speculating most of this for years.
 

Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,989
20
81
yup I know man..hahah, i hope when they find zawahari, mullah omar and Ilyas Kashmiri, they MOAB the shit out of these terrorist assholes and dont care abt the pakistani bases they live in/ next to.

Right.. too bad Kashmiri, Ibrahim, and Saeed and other turds are roaming around freely in Pakistan while Kasab and Afzal Guru are having biriyani with raitha in a jail in Mumbai instead of being hanged.. gotta love Indian "secularism" -- Don't execute convicted terrorists so that Muslims will vote for us..
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Agreed here. Not an Obama fan but I have to give credit to him on this operation. Where he differed from Bush was in his approach to Pakistan. Bush kept giving them free military aid $$ hoping it would translate into good will. But the Pakistanis, ever the crafty type, took our money while factions of their ISI were leaking info to the terrorists.


You still don't get it do you? These are the Hatfields and the McCoys. The only people they hate more then each other is anyone else. By taking money from the US and then pretending to be outraged at Obama defying them the government avoided retaliation. For all we know they secretly urging Obama on the whole time they complained.

Again, the only reason we're still there is because the fucks are completely insane and create a lot of trouble. Nobody will ever make real friends in the place because there's no such thing. To them a friend is someone who killed your people last year, but is now to your advantage to co-operate with this year, and who you intend to kill next year!
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
No, its Wuliheron who totally does not get it. Pakistan is not the Hatfields and the McCoys, they are and remain totally united on their main threat to survival, and that threat of India. Compared to that Indian threat, any US sympathy from Pakistan is merely a small side show hardly on any Pakistani radar. Normally any nation as large as 165 million is big nation status, but Pakistan is just a tiny midget compared to the Indian giant. And since Pakistan can do little to defuse the religious and ethnic tensions with India, the Pakistani priority was to secure alliances with the lands to the West, and that simply meant Afghanistan. And then that becomes the other Pakistan problem, an Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy is a wild card that can either be friend or foe.

But first Pakistan had to watch in only horror as the Russians moved into Afghanistan in the late nineteen seventies. Not knowing if a Russian victory meant Pakistan was next. So Pakistan was willing to do its small bit as the USA armed Mujaheddin rebels. But once the Russian bear got its nose tweaked, the USA abandoned Afghanistan as it once again descended into the Pakistani joker of a State of anarchy. In short how could Pakistan feel marginally safer without knowing if Afghanistan would be a future friend or foe? And so it become Pakistani military policy to aid the rising force of the Taliban. All nations on earth including the USA make such deals with the devil everyday.
And for Pakistan it paid giant dividends as it opened up new Pakistan trade routes with nations to the West and North.

Then came 911 and the whole world changed. Only a damn fool thinks its every nation's obligation to suspend it long term foreign policy just because the US stubbed its toe.

But still the USA was able to bribe the very Musharrif whom is now out of power because he believed GWB bullshit.

It is not a Pakistani obligation to bail out Nato stupidity. Learn it and live it, as even I as a USA citizen am now thrilled that Ossma Bin Laden now sleeps with the fishes. But still sadly, much of the Nato damage has been in destabilizing Pakistan. Meaning other nations will learn the lesson, just say no to Uncle Sam, when he says he promises I only want to lease a road.

As I US citizen, I can only say its the greater danger we should be afraid of. After all, the USA can not claim to be the leader of the free world when even our allies refuse to follow our foolish leaders.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
No, its Wuliheron who totally does not get it. Pakistan is not the Hatfields and the McCoys, they are and remain totally united on their main threat to survival, and that threat of India.


Some of them are now in little tiny pieces thanks to a few blowing themselves up in public places. Ooops! My bad! What did you use to reunite them? Super glue?





With friends like that who needs enemies.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
I'm pretty sure that he didn't really care any more about his safety. He was a marked man (10 years ago) and knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later.

He was comfortable in the "brothers" house in Pakistan.

I'm pretty sure there wasn't a big Government wide conspiracy to hide Obama in Pakistan (Countrywide conspiracy?) It's more like Lemon Law said; they really didn't spend much time thinking about Osama.

Sure some may have known - maybe even the "right people" knew, and had some big glorious plan to hide Obama... but odds are they didn't even have the slightest idea; or care.

-John
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
LOL at the ISI claiming it was a "joint operation". Yeah, you hid him there, and we came in and killed him.

At the moment, we need Pakistan more that Pakistan needs us because it's so much more practical to bring logistics in by ship and Afghanistan has no sea access. Also, there are surely other high value targets in Pakistan that we want to kill. It will be interesting to see if Pakistan takes steps to purge the ISI or continues business as usual. If the latter, we need to wind down and get out of Afghanistan as quickly as possible. If the former, we need to wind down and get out of Afghanistan as quickly as possible.

You ought to understand that it has been a question of whether the ISI would purge Pakistan. The ISI is run by some of the most dangerous people in the world and that's no exaggeration. They the major power in Pakistan. Consequently the civil government is in an awkward situation. If it's not careful then there is a good chance of a civil war resulting in a government with nuclear weapons that is supportive of Islamic extremists.

Given the choice of making a fuss and upsetting a very delicate balance of power with potential horrific consequences or putting up with the situation we went for the second and I agree. Make no mistake, getting Bin Laden is an awesome but not at the expense of people like him getting access to nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.
 

crisscross

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2001
1,598
0
71
I'm pretty sure that he didn't really care any more about his safety. He was a marked man (10 years ago) and knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later.

He was comfortable in the "brothers" house in Pakistan.

I'm pretty sure there wasn't a big Government wide conspiracy to hide Obama in Pakistan (Countrywide conspiracy?) It's more like Lemon Law said; they really didn't spend much time thinking about Osama.

Sure some may have known - maybe even the "right people" knew, and had some big glorious plan to hide Obama... but odds are they didn't even have the slightest idea; or care.

-John

Do you think the Government runs anything in Pakistan? It's the Army and by extension ISI and the top brass of both knew about this. Heck that mansion was an ISI constructed safe house for christs sake what more proof could you possibly want?
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
8,793
5
76
No, its Wuliheron who totally does not get it. Pakistan is not the Hatfields and the McCoys, they are and remain totally united on their main threat to survival, and that threat of India. Compared to that Indian threat, any US sympathy from Pakistan is merely a small side show hardly on any Pakistani radar. Normally any nation as large as 165 million is big nation status, but Pakistan is just a tiny midget compared to the Indian giant. And since Pakistan can do little to defuse the religious and ethnic tensions with India, the Pakistani priority was to secure alliances with the lands to the West, and that simply meant Afghanistan. And then that becomes the other Pakistan problem, an Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy is a wild card that can either be friend or foe.

And yet.. Pakistan creates more problems to India.. than what India did to Pakistan. The attitude of Pakistan still has not changed and still thinks that India is a major threat than the terrorists that are suicide bombing the shit out of the country.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You ought to understand that it has been a question of whether the ISI would purge Pakistan. The ISI is run by some of the most dangerous people in the world and that's no exaggeration. They the major power in Pakistan. Consequently the civil government is in an awkward situation. If it's not careful then there is a good chance of a civil war resulting in a government with nuclear weapons that is supportive of Islamic extremists.

Given the choice of making a fuss and upsetting a very delicate balance of power with potential horrific consequences or putting up with the situation we went for the second and I agree. Make no mistake, getting Bin Laden is an awesome but not at the expense of people like him getting access to nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.
Good points. We have historically supported their military, but I'm not sure how much power they now have relative to the ISI, or how pro-American the military remains. The ISI has been publicly slapped down a few times though - but then with Musharraf gone and several years of war next door . . .

Several years ago I used to spend a lot of time on English language beloved patriot boards, among others, mostly military boards which were by and large quite pro-American. Suddenly everyone was going apeshit and very anti-American for no apparent reason, nothing in the news, no one saying exactly why. I found out much later (when it became public) that the USA had delivered an ultimatum to Pakistan over certain specific people's access to nuclear weapons; we were evidently within days of taking out Pakistan's nuclear arsenal in a strategic first strike. Or at the least, we had given Pakistan that belief, enough so that it sent immediate ripples down to the low level, non-security clearance types talking with me.

If it happened then, it can certainly happen now in today's poisoned atmosphere. Things were at lot simpler for the beloved patriot military when all they had to do was take our money and not invade India.
 

crisscross

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2001
1,598
0
71
No, its Wuliheron who totally does not get it. Pakistan is not the Hatfields and the McCoys, they are and remain totally united on their main threat to survival, and that threat of India. Compared to that Indian threat, any US sympathy from Pakistan is merely a small side show hardly on any Pakistani radar. Normally any nation as large as 165 million is big nation status, but Pakistan is just a tiny midget compared to the Indian giant. And since Pakistan can do little to defuse the religious and ethnic tensions with India, the Pakistani priority was to secure alliances with the lands to the West, and that simply meant Afghanistan. And then that becomes the other Pakistan problem, an Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy is a wild card that can either be friend or foe.

But first Pakistan had to watch in only horror as the Russians moved into Afghanistan in the late nineteen seventies. Not knowing if a Russian victory meant Pakistan was next. So Pakistan was willing to do its small bit as the USA armed Mujaheddin rebels. But once the Russian bear got its nose tweaked, the USA abandoned Afghanistan as it once again descended into the Pakistani joker of a State of anarchy. In short how could Pakistan feel marginally safer without knowing if Afghanistan would be a future friend or foe? And so it become Pakistani military policy to aid the rising force of the Taliban. All nations on earth including the USA make such deals with the devil everyday.
And for Pakistan it paid giant dividends as it opened up new Pakistan trade routes with nations to the West and North.

Then came 911 and the whole world changed. Only a damn fool thinks its every nation's obligation to suspend it long term foreign policy just because the US stubbed its toe.

But still the USA was able to bribe the very Musharrif whom is now out of power because he believed GWB bullshit.

It is not a Pakistani obligation to bail out Nato stupidity. Learn it and live it, as even I as a USA citizen am now thrilled that Ossma Bin Laden now sleeps with the fishes. But still sadly, much of the Nato damage has been in destabilizing Pakistan. Meaning other nations will learn the lesson, just say no to Uncle Sam, when he says he promises I only want to lease a road.

As I US citizen, I can only say its the greater danger we should be afraid of. After all, the USA can not claim to be the leader of the free world when even our allies refuse to follow our foolish leaders.

Looks line you need some History lessons. Pakistan has an existential threat from India? when did India EVER attacked Pakistan? it has always been the other way round. India also has a no-first use policy on Nuclear weapons. So I don't get where this paranoia comes from.

You seem to parroting the lines of Pakistan war-mongers who keep playing up the fears of India attacking Pakistan every time to deflect attention from the shit hole they have turned Pakistan into.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Do you think the Government runs anything in Pakistan? It's the Army and by extension ISI and the top brass of both knew about this. Heck that mansion was an ISI constructed safe house for christs sake what more proof could you possibly want?
Do you understand what Government is? Hint; it's the "Government," the Army, and whatever this ISI you seem so proud of. That's the "Government" of Pakistan.

Which all means little shit to the rest of the world. The Government of Pakistan can fuck themselves all day and into Wednesday, for all we care.

And that's all they really seem capable of doing... is fucking themselves all day and into Wednesday.

To call them any sort of cohesive force, with cohesive thoughts and ideas... is giving them way too much credit. They are soly thugs.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Looks line you need some History lessons. Pakistan has an existential threat from India? when did India EVER attacked Pakistan? it has always been the other way round. India also has a no-first use policy on Nuclear weapons. So I don't get where this paranoia comes from.

You seem to parroting the lines of Pakistan war-mongers who keep playing up the fears of India attacking Pakistan every time to deflect attention from the shit hole they have turned Pakistan into.
India and Pakistan have been at war ever since Pakistan broke from India.

Everyone knows this.

-John
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
Do you understand what Government is? Hint; it's the "Government," the Army, and whatever this ISI you seem so proud of. That's the "Government" of Pakistan.

-John

That's good outrage. Would you give Pakistan and its nukes over to Bin Laden's successor to satisfy it?
 

crisscross

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2001
1,598
0
71
Do you understand what Government is? Hint; it's the "Government," the Army, and whatever this ISI you seem so proud of. That's the "Government" of Pakistan.

Which all means little shit to the rest of the world. The Government of Pakistan can fuck themselves all day and into Wednesday, for all we care.

And that's all they really seem capable of doing... is fucking themselves all day and into Wednesday.

To call them any sort of cohesive force, with cohesive thoughts and ideas... is giving them way too much credit. They are soly thugs.

-John
Reading comprehension is definitely not your strong suit is it? I am Indian not Pakistani why the hell would I be proud of the ISI which is the Pakistani Intelligence agency.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
That's good outrage. Would you give Pakistan and its nukes over to Bin Laden's successor to satisfy it?
Never, and that is not even on the table.

The world is done with Bin ladin. It was a big vast experiment (by the world) that taught all of us the lesson that this is unprofitable.

Taliban will never get Nukes. Pakistan, but a few, understand what Nukes are. Same with India. France has a few, buried deeply so not to offend anyone.

-John
 
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