Pakistan army victorious in Bajaur

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
maybe read up on human psychology. The point is, the people in the tribal regions of Pakistan did not hate Nato before, but those drones change that completely.

maybe you should put down the books on the subject, for a minute, and go meet a few of the subjects in person.

I'm doing both, and therefore learning the lessons you won't find in the books or on your interwebs.

I'm experiencing the truth, the reality.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Yea this is awesome. Sounds like Pakistan ( a client of mine) has been stepping it up. Hopefully Obama's Surge in afghanistan will have the two sides playing tennis with the taliban going between Pakistan and Afghanistan. With Pakistan still pegging at the other five provinces and the US kicking it up in Afghanistan, the Taliban will have nowhere to hide except in the mountains (which we can carpet bomb).

1. A surge wouldn't work in Afghanistan, a tactical change would, i'm not in charge and i can't fix it but we need to round them up and basically kill all of them, not just go after camp after camp after camp.

2. No, you can't carpet bomb those areas, if you could it would already be done, there have to be troops on the ground to guide airforce.

The Taliban needs to be eradicated, we can agree on that.

Every serious analysis that considers the Taliban says that there are various degrees of them, and that only a certain portion cannot be compromised with at all. That is not to say the others are all happy men - some of these men are absolutely horrible in wanting to deny girls education, etc. But they are not the same ideologues who want to go out and attack 'teh ebil west' because they feel the urge in their blood. Others are brought in due to clan/tribe ties.
By stating that the Taliban in its entirety needs to be eradicated is a gross mis evaluation. I'm thinking of this from the perspective to bring peace as fast as possible.
Besides, its much easier to try to fragment them and emphasize the differences so as to keep them separated (think of what Israeli governments and military do in Palestine) than to lump them together and try to unite them.
Of course, the whole analysis I heard was a series on PBS, which few of you may entirely hate, but it sure beat the living crap out of the 'bomb harder' analysis.

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Yea this is awesome. Sounds like Pakistan ( a client of mine) has been stepping it up. Hopefully Obama's Surge in afghanistan will have the two sides playing tennis with the taliban going between Pakistan and Afghanistan. With Pakistan still pegging at the other five provinces and the US kicking it up in Afghanistan, the Taliban will have nowhere to hide except in the mountains (which we can carpet bomb).

1. A surge wouldn't work in Afghanistan, a tactical change would, i'm not in charge and i can't fix it but we need to round them up and basically kill all of them, not just go after camp after camp after camp.

2. No, you can't carpet bomb those areas, if you could it would already be done, there have to be troops on the ground to guide airforce.

The Taliban needs to be eradicated, we can agree on that.

Every serious analysis that considers the Taliban says that there are various degrees of them, and that only a certain portion cannot be compromised with at all. That is not to say the others are all happy men - some of these men are absolutely horrible in wanting to deny girls education, etc. But they are not the same ideologues who want to go out and attack 'teh ebil west' because they feel the urge in their blood. Others are brought in due to clan/tribe ties.
By stating that the Taliban in its entirety needs to be eradicated is a gross mis evaluation. I'm thinking of this from the perspective to bring peace as fast as possible.
Besides, its much easier to try to fragment them and emphasize the differences so as to keep them separated (think of what Israeli governments and military do in Palestine) than to lump them together and try to unite them.
Of course, the whole analysis I heard was a series on PBS, which few of you may entirely hate, but it sure beat the living crap out of the 'bomb harder' analysis.

the sad part is that the degrees are:

1) in power and imposing prehistoric bullshit
2) not in power and waiting to get to #1

otherwise they are something else, not taliban...

one of the sad things about humans is that sometimes you need to kill them to get their attention... and you have to kill enough to make the rest catch on that the behavior of those getting killed is not to be emulated...

think of it this way, if republicans did the things the taliban does over here, you'd be all for killing them... that ought to make it easier for y'all to accept...

these are simple people... debate and engagement is kind of lost on them when it comes to their world view...

 

[Lemon law]

It would be wonderful if cubeless had anything but hot air to say, but when we have less than a Nato 100,000 troops being the killers and 200 million being the people to kill or else, we have to take into consideration the law of comparative tonages. Basically, if Nato follows the the cubeless plan, there are two ways for them to go. (1) Like the GOP in the election of 06 and 08, as they go from dominant to a distinct minority when they lose the people's consent. (2) Then there is always the Shah of Iran method, wake up one day and realize that most everyone hates you and even the people who prop up your power want you gone, and then you grab what you can carry and flee like a thief in the night because the jigs up. Wait too long, and you will never live to see where they finally display your corpse.

In our American revolution the Brits were in the position of Nato also, we can see where it got them Brits when they said its our way or the highway.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Had Pakistan not been so willing to crawl into bed with the Taliban, then they would not have such a problem.

When the Taliban were pushed out of Afghanistan they ran to Pakistan. And Pakistan was willing to let them in.

Now the Taliban have become strong enough to demand and force Pakistan to cede territory

If Pakistan created the Taliban they were forced to do so by the USA. So shut your trap and fuck off.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
If Pakistan created the Taliban they were forced to do so by the USA. So shut your trap and fuck off.

Who? What? When? When? Where? How? Why?

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
If Pakistan created the Taliban they were forced to do so by the USA. So shut your trap and fuck off.

Who? What? When? When? Where? How? Why?

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Actually palehorse, if you got off your high horse, you might realize TheGreenBean has a point.
Not as a absolute and provable point, but as something that is by in large true.

The Taliban's almost lone virtue was to restore some modicum of order and to remove corruption after the Afghan civil war, displacing the very corrupt Northern Alliance in the process. Which was also great for Pakistan which needs a stable Afghanistan.

The Nato invasion again displaced the Taliban and largely restored the corrupt Northern Alliance, which in and of itself might not be bad, except palehorse and Nato have not built a damn thing in eight years to redeem themselves in any way. Leaving Afghanistan in the same place it was in 1994, badly in need of a force that will reduce corruption and anarchy.

We would hope that Nato would be that force and instead its in bed with the Northern Alliance and corruption. As a result the Afghan people and Pakistan lose, while palehorse and JOS will have a perpetual fruitless job, and Al-Quida is the big winner in the resulting regional anarchy that will never end.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Actually palehorse, if you got off your high horse, you might realize TheGreenBean has a point. Not as a absolute and provable point, but as something that is by in large true.

The man just made the claim that Pakistan created the Taliban at the behest of the U.S. government, and you give validity to that nonsense?!

Jesus... I don't know why we even bother trying to reason with the likes of you.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
If Pakistan created the Taliban they were forced to do so by the USA. So shut your trap and fuck off.

Who? What? When? When? Where? How? Why?

The taliban were better than what the USA left Afghanistan with. At least stability wise and economically. Why the fuck are you Americans too arrogant to accept your mistakes? We made a mistake but if the Americans hadn't left there would have been no problem to begin with. The Taliban are partly America's fault but are too busy playing god to admit it.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Actually palehorse, if you got off your high horse, you might realize TheGreenBean has a point. Not as a absolute and provable point, but as something that is by in large true.

The man just made the claim that Pakistan created the Taliban at the behest of the U.S. government, and you give validity to that nonsense?!

Jesus... I don't know why we even bother trying to reason with the likes of you.

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No, palehorse, your claim of "The man just made the claim that Pakistan created the Taliban at the behest of the U.S. government, and you give validity to that nonsense?!" , is incorrect.

The point being, when the USA abandoned Afghanistan as an unneeded tool after the nose of the Russian bear was tweaked, that same US policy made an Afghan civil war inevitable and also made inevitable some force like the Taliban to end that civil war.

Of course the US bears some of the responsibility for the creation of the Taliban, not as a direct intent, but still, those idiots who had only short terms gains in mind when they manipulated people in the 1980's often live long enough to see their brainfarts come back to bite us big time. And in the same sense we can say the USA had its role in creating Al-Quida at the same time.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Had Pakistan not been so willing to crawl into bed with the Taliban, then they would not have such a problem.

When the Taliban were pushed out of Afghanistan they ran to Pakistan. And Pakistan was willing to let them in.

Now the Taliban have become strong enough to demand and force Pakistan to cede territory

If Pakistan created the Taliban they were forced to do so by the USA. So shut your trap and fuck off.

I never stated that Pakistan created the Taliban.

I stated that Pakistan has been willing to crawl into bed with them and are now getting burned by it.

Pakistan was asked initially to close their borders to the fleeing Taliban/AQ groups streaming across the passes.

Pakistan refused.

Now, Pakistan is seeing what they were warned about.

 

[Lemon law]

In a sense common Courtesy is only partially correct in saying, "I never stated that Pakistan created the Taliban.

I stated that Pakistan has been willing to crawl into bed with them and are now getting burned by it.

Pakistan was asked initially to close their borders to the fleeing Taliban/AQ groups streaming across the passes.

Pakistan refused.

Now, Pakistan is seeing what they were warned about."

The main error is that we can think of Pakistan or Nato or the USA as some sort of a single individual, with one voice, and one common purpose.

And only in that sense is Common Courtesy correct because certain elements inside of Pakistan aided in the rise of the Taliban, and once established, both Pakistan and the USA opened formal or informal relations with the Taliban. So in that sense, the bed Pakistan crawled into was already full of US and other national interests.

And its all well and fine to say that Pakistan was asked to close its borders as the joint Nato and Northern Alliance forces initially routed the Taliban out of Afghanistan in early 2002, but the error basically lies with the assumption that the Pakistani army ever had control of the autonomous border regions of Pakistan. Its was not a matter of Pakistan refused, it was a matter that they did not have the ability or even wanted the ability to suddenly close their borders with Afghanistan.

And now going back, we have to talk about the initial deal Pakistan made with GWB. And the deal was basically a simple lease. In exchange for military aid,
Pakistan leases the US and Nato a land route into Afghanistan. In the process the USA and Nato promise to limit all military activity to only Afghanistan.
Nothing in that original agreement stated that Pakistan was supposed to be a US partner or anything else.

But now the still loosely held Pakistani border areas are now home to many Taliban, some Al-Quida, some foreign fighters, and of course the original residents. Which should be none of Nato's business, because, by in large, these mostly Taliban types cause little trouble.

But when the USA comes in with drones or pressures the Pakistani army into fighting in the Tribal regions, its stirs everything up, it pisses everyone off, and starts to resemble the mess the USA and Nato created in Afghanistan. If Pakistan ignored the USA and kept NATO the hell out of PAKISTAN PERIOD, they would have little problems with the Taliban in the tribal regions.

And now that is what Taliban leaders are publically saying, as long as Pakistan permits the US access to Pakistani territory, the Taliban will stage two terrorist attacks per week inside of Pakistan. And now Pakistan is seeing why Musharraf was so insistent that Nato stay out of Pakistan itself.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So who will control Pakistan. the Taliban or Pakistan

 

[EagleKeeper]

Also, the US/NATO stated that the Taliban/AQ would not be allowed to hide under another countries sovereignty.

We did not go after the Taliban in NW Pakistan until it was shown that Pakistan was not interested in stopping the Taliban from staging from within Pakistan and also that elements inside the PAkistan government were supporting the Taliban.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So who will control Pakistan. the Taliban or Pakistan

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There is no question that the Taliban has zero appeal in the modern areas of Pakistan. They can't expand into the modern areas and they well know it.

In the tribal areas, there may or may not be a control question. As it is, long before the Taliban was even created, much of the Governance in the Tribal areas was in the form of basic Sharia law, but not so Taliban specific as actually bar all female education. And now in parts of the tribal areas on Pakistan, full Sharia law, Taliban style is being instituted just for the purpose of avoiding local warfare with the Pakistani army. Its more a matter that the tribal regions want to retain their own autonomous status because power is shared with too many tribes and groups.

The real question is and remains, if left alone, will the Taliban moderate its stance? Especially since modernization will creep into the tribal areas and make it increasingly obvious to all that
that their governance is incompatible with the times.

If we look at history, usually, if left alone, such nutty religious theocracies last about 20 years,
before doing some major moderation, sadly if not left alone, they last far longer without moderating their views. And the more we stress the Taliban, the more firmly they will cling to their beliefs.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So who will control Pakistan. the Taliban or Pakistan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no question that the Taliban has zero appeal in the modern areas of Pakistan. They can't expand into the modern areas and they well know it.

In the tribal areas, there may or may not be a control question. As it is, long before the Taliban was even created, much of the Governance in the Tribal areas was in the form of basic Sharia law, but not so Taliban specific as actually bar all female education. And now in parts of the tribal areas on Pakistan, full Sharia law, Taliban style is being instituted just for the purpose of avoiding local warfare with the Pakistani army. Its more a matter that the tribal regions want to retain their own autonomous status because power is shared with too many tribes and groups.

The real question is and remains, if left alone, will the Taliban moderate its stance? Especially since modernization will creep into the tribal areas and make it increasingly obvious to all that
that their governance is incompatible with the times.

If we look at history, usually, if left alone, such nutty religious theocracies last about 20 years,
before doing some major moderation, sadly if not left alone, they last far longer without moderating their views. And the more we stress the Taliban, the more firmly they will cling to their beliefs.

I agree. There is no question of the Taliban coming to power. They may spread fear but taking control of institutions - that's not going to happen. I think traitor Zardari is overplaying the threat the Taliban poses to make a few quick bucks.

The taliban are quickly losing support. It would've happened even faster if the Americans did not interfere! The whole problem is that they have portrayed this war as a war against "extremist Islam." That clear shows how ignorant they are. They could simply have said that it's an operation against militancy and has nothing to do with religious fundamentalism or extremism. That way the peaceful but strict follwers of the faith would not feel agitated. If the CIA does not have a hidden agenda, they are extremely stupid.

Besides America waged war against the Taliban; not the other way round.

__

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani Muslim League-N chief Mian Nawaz Sharif says that he has nothing personal against President Asif Ali Zardari, adding that his differences were based on principles.

Speaking to reporters after meeting with US officials here on Tuesday, he said: ?I have categorically shared my stance with US officials.?

He said drone attacks in tribal areas by US forces are 'counterproductive'.

?US President Barack Obama will have to change its policy about drone strikes,? he commented. Two-time prime minister stressed that the whole nation needed to unite to deal with the prevailing challenges.

To a question, he said that he has no intention to rejoin federal cabinet. ?It was party?s decision to part ways with the federal government.?

PML-N chief further said that charter of democracy (CoD) should be implemented now He urged the need to stabilize the country on economic and political fronts.

?I have complete confidence in judiciary following the restoration of Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry,? he added.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Another victory for the Pakistanis!

Text

Pakistani troops took the main town in strategically important Buner Valley on Wednesday after dropping by helicopter behind Taliban lines, killing over 50 militants in two days of fighting

Hopefully the government will crush these threats before they become even more serious. I do not like reading articles speculating about Pakistan collapsing, so hopefully news like this will help alleviate those fears.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Another victory for the Pakistanis!

Text

Pakistani troops took the main town in strategically important Buner Valley on Wednesday after dropping by helicopter behind Taliban lines, killing over 50 militants in two days of fighting

Hopefully the government will crush these threats before they become even more serious. I do not like reading articles speculating about Pakistan collapsing, so hopefully news like this will help alleviate those fears.

What's actually happening isn't clear yet as the Pakistani army has apparently barred reporters and severed telecom links with the area in question.