Pentium III Tualatin oc'ing

[chew]

Pentium III 1266 512k
I got lucky and scored 2 of them , and am now looking for a dualy mb for them. However it looks like either the chips or the mbs (in particular dual setup) doesn't have much success in oc'ing:frown: In particular I'm looking at the IWill DVD266u-RN board.
Anybody have any experience/thoughts?

 

[oldfart]

I have (one). It overclocks pretty well. I run it @ 152 FSB, 1.44 Ghz, stock 1.45 Vcore, stock HS/Fan. My ram and PCI bus speed is the limiting factor, not the CPU.

 

[MilkPowderR]

<< Pentium III 1266 512k
I got lucky and scored 2 of them , and am now looking for a dualy mb for them. However it looks like either the chips or the mbs (in particular dual setup) doesn't have much success in oc'ing:frown: In particular I'm looking at the IWill DVD266u-RN board.
Anybody have any experience/thoughts? >>



Iwill DVD266u-RN is an awesome board. If you got some good DDR RAM and keep OC'ing. Doing 166mhz FSB shouldn't be a problem but ofcourse start@ lower number and see how it progresses. Nice chips you got there. I envy ya.

 

[Idoxash]

why worry of oc/ing it that baby runns fast as it is.....man i wish i had two of them in smp but i'm lucky that i have just one haha....anyway that's a kick cpu there!!!

 

[chew]

thx for the replies, just a couple more Qs

oldfart, mind if I ask what board you are running on?
Milkpowder, you say it's an awesome board, just wondering if you've seen one in action, any probs you might know of?

 

[oldfart]

Mine is a single, not dual. Look at my system rigs below for all the specs.

 

[techwanabe]

<<

<< Pentium III 1266 512k
I got lucky and scored 2 of them , and am now looking for a dualy mb for them. However it looks like either the chips or the mbs (in particular dual setup) doesn't have much success in oc'ing:frown: In particular I'm looking at the IWill DVD266u-RN board.
Anybody have any experience/thoughts? >>



Iwill DVD266u-RN is an awesome board. If you got some good DDR RAM and keep OC'ing. Doing 166mhz FSB shouldn't be a problem but ofcourse start@ lower number and see how it progresses. Nice chips you got there. I envy ya. >>


Can a Tualy based system use DDR memory? if so can it use the double data rate to increase memory bandwidth? I thought that it would not use DDR?

 

[MilkPowderR]

Chew, I haven't actually had experience with the board but have heard from some owners and review about that board. It should perform well with great stability. I can't say for sure what issues of problems it may have. Sorry.

Techwannabe, yeah those IWill DVD 266 series are DDR platform. They only take DDR RAM so it is a great advantage for the Pentium systems. This is the board I really wanted to get for my 2- P3 1000E's. And DDR should work with the tually because these boards do support Tualatin and since it is a DDR board.

 

[techwanabe]

That is very interesting about running a Celeron or PIII on DDR memory.

I was under the impression that the CPU itself had to support DDR memory to take advantage of the "double memory bandwidth" and I thought it simply wasn't in the Penitum architecture to use DDR memory. Even if the mobo supports it, the effect would be as if it were standard PC133 SDR memory in actual benchmarks since the CPU doesn't. If the Penium CPU can support DDR, then why haven't there been mobo's out to take advantage of this before? Or is this a feature new with the Tualatin version?

What does Oldfart have to say about this?

 

[oldfart]

I've never tried a DDR PIII setup. I have read reviews that say a PIII does not benefit from DDR mem. Maybe a PIII-S would? Maybe in a dual it would? Not sure.

 

[Richardito]

<< That is very interesting about running a Celeron or PIII on DDR memory.

I was under the impression that the CPU itself had to support DDR memory to take advantage of the "double memory bandwidth" and I thought it simply wasn't in the Penitum architecture to use DDR memory. Even if the mobo supports it, the effect would be as if it were standard PC133 SDR memory in actual benchmarks since the CPU doesn't. If the Penium CPU can support DDR, then why haven't there been mobo's out to take advantage of this before? Or is this a feature new with the Tualatin version?

What does Oldfart have to say about this? >>



The CPU doesn't has to support DDR, only the motherboard/chipset. As the FSB increases so does the communication in the Northbridge of the mobo and more juice is extracted from the DDR memory. A FSB speed of 66 or 100MHz with DDR shouldn't give you a huge performance difference. 133MHz of FSB is much better. The best performance of DDR is shown in P4 and AMD systems with high FSB speeds.

 

[techwanabe]

This is all very interesting since I am evaluating hardware to upgrade. On thing which had me leaning toward the Tualatin w/new mobo was I could save $$ by reusing my SDRAM and case. But if DDR memory could offer a significant boost over a SDR system on the same platform, I might as well be spend on the new case and get me an AMD Athlon XP system. Heck, then I could give my PIII system to my daughter or sell it.

In the mean time, I'd like to learn more about the PIII/Tualatin systems on DDR. Like I'd like to see some real data or benchmarks. If anyone can provide links comparing SDR and DDR PIIITualatin systems with each other, please post them. Thanx.

 

[oldfart]

I don't have time to look it up now, but I have read several reviews of DDR P3 boards and there was no real gain by going to DDR. Its not the bus speed. Its the way the bus is structured. Do some research and you will see the same.

 

[oldfart]

See the reply HERE as to why DDR doesn't help a PIII. Use a good 815E B step mobo and clock it up to 150 or so FSB. My setup (see my rigs) runs very nicely. I get a 532/519 mem bench in Sisoft 2001te, which is not bad at all.

 

[techwanabe]

Andy Hui comes through again. Seems there is no purpose for these DDR PIII mother boards other than to confuse the consumer or give some users a false sense that they are gaining something. With DDR memory being more expensive than standard SDRAM, there is even less insentive to do this.

 

[chew]

Although I agree generally that DDR is not worth it on P3, I still think a few points can be made.

The P3 CPU FSB runs at 133, and the memory bus on a DDR board is 266 (effectively), so you would assume that extra 133 is wasted. But remember, this happens via the chipset's memory controller, and the CPU is NOT the only thing in the system that directly accesses memory. There are a number of devices that use DMA access to the memory, so any time more than one device wants to read/write from the memory, they must wait for the memory controller to become free. Therefore the faster the memory bus is running, the faster the other device gets access to the memory.
Of course, realistically only the CPU is reading/writing large amounts of data to the memory, but the fact that other devices jump in and interfere occasionally can affect performance. The main one to remember is your AGP video card, any game that uses a lot of large textures that can't be stored directly can use the AGP's ability to operate directly on the system memory.

Another point is the chipset's DDR implementation. Remember when DDR first became available for Athlon systems, say the KT266? Everybody was disappointed with the improvement in performance it offered. It wasn't until the KT266A (or before it, SIS735 or even AMD760) that we saw performance improvements as expected. It seems safe to say the same applies for the P3 DDR chipsets. Although you can check here to see that there is some performance gain to be had with DDR, at least on dual CPU setups.
As some extra info, there is a (p)review of the IWill DVDu266-RN that uses the new Apollo Pro 266T chipset that posts some nice benchmarks here. Oldfart you mention Sisoft memory benchmarks of 532/519, is that at the CPU's normal 1266/133fsb, or at your overclocked 1444/152fsb? Even on a 1133/133fsb this board scores 556/582.. perhaps we have the improved memory performance on the 266T chipset that was previously lacking.

But in all, besides my extended ranting, I do agree that the 133FSB of P3 seriously limits the advantage of DDR memory, not worth the extra money unless you want that extra few percent at any cost. My main reason is limited options.. can anyone suggest ANY other dual Tualatin board not designed for the server market?

 

[techwanabe]

Thanks Chew for adding your comments on other aspects of DDR memory usage. Those comments seem to make sense and may make a difference in certain circumstances. You are right, it probably isn't worth the expense for someone who already is using standard PC133 memory, but if already has some DDR memory, might as well get one of these. Or possibly a PIII/Tualatin based server might benefit too?

Back on the topic of overclocking Tualatins:

Oldfart, I'm still brain pickin so here's some more questions... What kind of CPU temperatures can be expected if a 1.0A Tualy Celeron is OC'd to FSB 133? Do you think my existing Taisol HSF would be adequate for cooling this kind of rig? To be honest, I don't consider myself a hard core overclocker so I don't won't to get into setups which require expensive, noisy or exotic cooling solution. Rather, I'd like to be able to put together a modestly priced upgrade which is stable and reliable.

 

[oldfart]

Chew, some interesting info. I'm not really up on the SMP stuff. From what I see, mobo selection is pretty limited. I'm not a fan of VIA chipsets, but there may not be much of a choice. My mem scores @ 133 MHz FSB are 458/441. The mem scores on that DDR board do look very good.

techwanabe, when I was running the 1.0A @ 1.4 GHz, 1.65 Vcore, I was using a Taisol CEK734092 HS/Fan and it worked fine.

I'm like you as far as overclocking goes. I dont like a noisy, hot, unstable system. This is why I'm so happy with the PIII-S 1.26 @ 1.44. Stock 1.45 Vcore, stock HS/Fan. Stable as a rock. The C1.0A @ 1.4 was perectly stable @ 1.65 Vcore. If you are going for 1.33, you should have no problems.

 

[techwanabe]

Oldfart, Thats good info! It would be nice to use that Taisol I got. I don't recall the model number of it, but it was a Taisol I bought from Mikewarrior2 IIRC, back in December 2000 which was the only one listed on the website as compatable with Pentium III FC-PGA. It dropped my PIII550E cpu around 6+ degrees average. I was getting maximum temperatures of 56 degrees C when clocked at 733 mhz, but it never got above ~48 degrees after replacing the stock HSF.

Just curious, you didn't mention any temperatures. Have you monitored them on the OC'd Tually 1.0A at 1.4 that you were running? If so would you mind sharing those temps?

 

[oldfart]

I never got around to installing MBM when I was playing with the 1.0A. Dont have any temps for ya. Check the Taisol web site. They have documents on the various HS/Fans they sell.

 

[techwanabe]

nuther Q for ya Oldfart. I just went through the whole bother of reloading windows, software and drivers etc... on my P3V4X PIII550E system. However, I did not load drivers or anything specific to my present mobo (even tho I have the ASUS 3in1 drivers). Assuming I didn't load any mobo specific stuff, do you think I could install my present master HD to a new mobo (e.g. ASUS TUSL2) and go to town without having to reinstall everything? Do you do this?

 

[oldfart]

I did it going from one 815E board to another with Win2K. I had to clean up some stuff, but it went ok. Going from VIA to Intel would be harder. Even though you didn't load any drivers, Windows still installed stuff to support the old mobo. Clean is always a good idea.

If you are going to build a C1.0A and overclock it, you will also have to do a "wire trick" mod. Here is the problem: Lets say you do 1.0A @ 133 FSB, 1.33 GHz, 1.6 Vcore (a guess). When you turn on the PC or restart, the mobo posts using the default 1.475 Vcore, then raises it to what you have set in the bios after POST. The problem is, 1.475 is not enough to POST @ 1.33 GHz. The wire trick (it's easy to do). Will have the CPU POST @ 1.675, then it is set to whatever you have in the BIOS after inital POST.

 

[techwanabe]

Well, guess I'm stuck reloading everything dang it.

Where is the methodolgy for the "wire trick" mod so I can study up. Thanks

 

[Zap]

I just picked up an MSI 694T Pro motherboard because I was thinking about getting a Celeron 1200 (might do 1600??? anyone here do that?) but have been disappointed with it. Tried my old P3 700 (does 933 stable on a BX133 board) and it wouldn't let me do more than 756!!! The voltage only does +.1v max. Disappointing. I'd been reading about Tualatins doing nice overclocks, but I don't think my board will do it. What boards are you guys running for OCing Tualatins?

Techwannabe, the "wire trick" is to get a strand of wire (really thin, maybe pick apart a stranded wire to get a single strand) and wrap it around two of the pins on your processor, thus shorting them out on each other. I think (but not sure) the pins are VID2 to VSS. Go to Intel's Developer Site and download the spec sheets in PDF format to get the exact pins.

It seems to me as if the Tually Cellys are like the older P3 Cu chips... 256k 8-way set associative cache, 100MHz FSB... plus having prefetch and .13 micron to run cooler. Am I right in assuming that a Celeron 1.0A would perform similar or better than a P3 1000/100?

 

[oldfart]

A better method is the pin hole method. Take a tiny strand of wire (hair thin!), bend it into a U, drop it into the socket. Wire wrapping the pins is hard and doesn't let the CPU sit in the socket correctly. For the Tually, you want VID1 and VID2 connected.

techwanabe, I'll email you a diagram.