Phenom vs. Conroe .

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Phynaz
There's nothing we can do to help AMD. They need to help themselves.

So says you. I'll disagree.

 

[AVAFREAK182]

Whats all this talk about apples? lol

 

[Mana]

Well, there are other reasons why I am pretty sure I am going with Phenom. I really like the featureset of the 790FX chipset, Overdrive intrigues me, I like AMDs powersaving features, and in terms of life, AM2+ will be around longer than LGA775.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: Mana
Well, there are other reasons why I am pretty sure I am going with Phenom. I really like the featureset of the 790FX chipset, Overdrive intrigues me, I like AMDs powersaving features, and in terms of life, AM2+ will be around longer than LGA775.

To each their own, I guess.

Sure, if outright performance or price/performance is not high on your list then the 790FX platform certainly looks the goods, and brings a lot of new features to the table as you said.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: harpoon84

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
MORE money? I was under the impression that AMD was to be very competitive with pricing because they couldn't compete directly against Intel performance wise. Am I wrong? And I need some of you folks to see the bigger picture here. Helping AMD out WILL help us in the end. They need the money, all they can get, to battle against Intel. Do you want to see Intels prices climb higher and higher? Like the days of K5/6? I sure don't. Bigger picture Harpoon. Bigger picture.

And by the way, I'm only asking people to consider buying AMD. If they do they do. If not, such is life.

I suggest you check the prices of the Phenoms. $270 for the 2.2GHz model, $320 for the 2.3GHz model.

Now, seeing as how a $270 Q6600 is already faster than the GP-9600 (going by these benchmarks) are you still suggesting people to buy AMD out of sympathy? Then there is the fact that you need DDR2-1066 to get the most out of Phenom, which makes it even worse price/performance wise, when a Q6600 does just fine and dandy with much cheaper DDR2-800 or even DDR2-667. Then there is the high prices of 790FX AM2+ boards... so no, I'm sorry, I do see the bigger picture, and it's that AMD needs to overhaul management and start EXECUTING, because their current lineup is not up to it.

They are in a much better financial position after the $700M stake bought by Abu Dhabi, so no excuses there either, if they can't deliver with this financial windfall, there is no saving them.

As for Intel returning to 90's style pricing, I seriously doubt it. CPUs are becoming a commodity nowadays, but if you are that paranoid over it then so be it.

I'll get back to you once you actually understand what I'm talking about. The bolded word above indicates that you do not. Let me know.

 

[kmmatney]

If these are competitive in price at stock speeds, then they should sell well. The vast majority of computers are not overclocked so its the stock speeds at a given price point which determine how these will sell.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Phynaz
There's nothing we can do to help AMD. They need to help themselves.

So says you. I'll disagree.

Keys, for once we agree. I now have all but 2 of 12 systems that are now intel ( 4 C2Q's and 6 C2D's) but if these new AMD quads can hit at least 2.8, I may give them a try, just to help my old friend out. They deserve my support, if for no other reason, than to keep my new friend Intel in check. I do overclock a lot, otherwise they would be right there anyway. I have had AMD systems 100% for 8 years, so I have done my duty in the past, I just went bang/buck with C2D and Q, after they took my F@H times in 1/2, but now it may be for another reason. If I give AMD 20% of my systems, at least I will help keep them in the ballpark.

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I'll get back to you once you actually understand what I'm talking about. The bolded word above indicates that you do not. Let me know.

I know what you're talking about. You said that if Phenom was competitively priced, you urge people to buy AMD for the 'better good'. That I can understand, support the struggling underdog etc. I have no problems with that.

The only problem is that Phenom is NOT competitively priced, not initially anyway. I suspect we will see price drops once Intel launches the 45nm quads though.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It's not like Phenom is going to be bad. All indicators thus far seem to point to a 10% improvement in ipc over K8, which is very nice considering the fact that we're also seeing quads. Had Intel continued in their funk that they were in back in the Prescott/Smithfield days we'd be clapping our hands with glee. Intel unleashed the power of their fully operational R&D department and changed the way we thought about CPU performance.

Let's face it, Core 2 has us a little spoiled, not like that's an entirely bad thing.

For me, and other AM2 budget buyers, Phenom chips may represent a drop-in upgrade that will be cheaper than buying a new Intel motherboard + chip. The only thing I can say against Phenom is that used Intel motherboards and processors may beat it out at a lower price depending on who's selling what.

Also, I think Phenom chips will be fun to tinker with (my X2-3600+ sure was), and people who go out of their way to tweak for low memory latency will get a better performance boost than what we see in a lot of benchmarks we're about to see from review sites. I'm really looking forward to the improved memory controllers on these things, especially in the cheap Phenom X2s based on the Rana core (no L3 cache). Rana performance will be heavily dependent on memory latency.

Furthermore, we're hearing from some folks about X2-6400+ procs hitting 3.5-3.6ghz on air. If Phenom X4s or even X2s can do that in the B2 or B3 stepping then you're in spitting distance of the 3.2-3.6ghz overclocks lots of people get on air with Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads. Most Penryn Quads won't be going too far past 3.6 ghz due to FSB concerns, not that that's going to be a terrible thing for Penryn owners . . . but if we have 3.6 ghz Penryns going head-to-head with 3.6 ghz Phenoms then things won't look so bad for AMD on the enthusiast front. Overall Phenom will probably be 10-17% slower per clock and will cost a smidgen less. Granted, that's a lot of "ifs" but it wouldn't surprise me if that's what really happens.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: DrMrLordX
Furthermore, we're hearing from some folks about X2-6400+ procs hitting 3.5-3.6ghz on air. If Phenom X4s or even X2s can do that in the B2 or B3 stepping then you're in spitting distance of the 3.2-3.6ghz overclocks lots of people get on air with Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads. Most Penryn Quads won't be going too far past 3.6 ghz due to FSB concerns, not that that's going to be a terrible thing for Penryn owners . . . but if we have 3.6 ghz Penryns going head-to-head with 3.6 ghz Phenoms then things won't look so bad for AMD on the enthusiast front. Overall Phenom will probably be 10-17% slower per clock and will cost a smidgen less. Granted, that's a lot of "ifs" but it wouldn't surprise me if that's what really happens.

Phenom X4s overclocking to 3.4-3.6 isn't really believable at this stage with the starting high end SKU at 2.4 GHZ, and Phenom X2 isn't going to be out till sometime in late Q1 2008 at the earliest likely due to needing sometime to get the Phenom X3s out.

By that time your looking at facing cheap Wolfdale-3M SKU's to fight against Rana, so I dunno how much success AMD will have at this point.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: myocardia
Oh yeah, have you heard anything in your investor phone calls about when there will be driver support for four video cards? I'm hoping it isn't true that it will be Q1, before the drivers support more than two, like has been rumored.

According to http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/...ases-radeon-hd-3870-x2 , there is support for crossfire for HD3870x2 cards, which means four GPUs, so I would think that quad-crossfire is also supported. Since Cat 7.11.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: myocardia
Oh yeah, have you heard anything in your investor phone calls about when there will be driver support for four video cards? I'm hoping it isn't true that it will be Q1, before the drivers support more than two, like has been rumored.

According to http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/...ases-radeon-hd-3870-x2 , there is support for crossfire for HD3870x2 cards, which means four GPUs, so I would think that quad-crossfire is also supported. Since Cat 7.11.

Umm, the Inquirer is one of the places where I read that AMD won't be releasing quad video card driver support until Q1 of '08, although like the rest, they gave absolutely no sources. So now, just a few days later, the Inq shows screenshots of quad card support? Well, at least I'm not surprised. If these guys were actual journalists, they'd be working somewhere that had at least a modicum of credibility.:laugh:

 

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Phenom X4s overclocking to 3.4-3.6 isn't really believable at this stage with the starting high end SKU at 2.4 GHZ, and Phenom X2 isn't going to be out till sometime in late Q1 2008 at the earliest likely due to needing sometime to get the Phenom X3s out.

On the B2 stepping, I agree. B3? Who knows. B3 promises parts launching with speeds as high as 3 ghz, on a quad. B2 is looking pretty bad and I honestly can't say that I want to buy one at this point.

By that time your looking at facing cheap Wolfdale-3M SKU's to fight against Rana, so I dunno how much success AMD will have at this point.

Well, again, it's about cheap upgrades for AM2 owners. A $50-$60 Rana hitting nice speeds would be a lot of fun for someone already running an X2-3600+.

 

[IEC]

I'll be waiting for the magical revised stepping that takes Phenom to 3.0GHz plus. Then I'll buy it along with spider and a pair of HD 3870s or 39xx's

I like my E2140 @ 2.8GHz a lot, but I feel compelled to support my old friend AMD once they get their game on a little bit more. At the very least I'll buy an HD 3870. It wasn't too long ago that AMD was the better value and I hope they can achieve that again for competition's sake.

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
MORE money? I was under the impression that AMD was to be very competitive with pricing because they couldn't compete directly against Intel performance wise. Am I wrong? And I need some of you folks to see the bigger picture here. Helping AMD out WILL help us in the end. They need the money, all they can get, to battle against Intel. Do you want to see Intels prices climb higher and higher? Like the days of K5/6? I sure don't. Bigger picture Harpoon. Bigger picture.

And by the way, I'm only asking people to consider buying AMD. If they do they do. If not, such is life.

After Anandtech's review, do you still stand by your point? Seriously...

 

[Keysplayr]

Actually, my point was in anticipation of a review like this. Seriously... You still don't get it. AMD will HAVE to adjust pricing especially after these reviews.

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Actually, my point was in anticipation of a review like this. Seriously... You still don't get it. AMD will HAVE to adjust pricing especially after these reviews.

You think?! But will they?

 

[Acanthus]

I believe i speak for the entire quad overlocking community when i say...

Boo AMD.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: harpoon84

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Actually, my point was in anticipation of a review like this. Seriously... You still don't get it. AMD will HAVE to adjust pricing especially after these reviews.

You think?! But will they?

Well, what do you think will happen?

 

[harpoon84]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Well, what do you think will happen?

How would I know, I don't work for AMD's pricing department. I hope they do, but it's not as simple as flicking a switch and saying 'yep, we'll match Intel on price/performance'.

Will it make sense for them to cut prices from a financial sense? They may wish to focus on their margins/ASPs, who knows. Don't forget that it costs AMD a lot more to make a Phenom than it does Intel to make a C2Q...

For price/performance parity with a Q6600, a yet to be released 2.6GHz Phenom 9900 would need to be priced at $250. The 2.2GHz part would need to be close to $200. That is asking a lot from AMD.

You seem convinced AMD will cut their prices though, so obviously we have nothing to worry about then.

 

[brxndxn]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Apples to Apples is my best against your best= Apples to Apples.

No, apples to apples = $200 CPU vs $200 CPU with everything else as close as possible.

Agreed..

There is absolutely no point comparing a $1000 processor to a $270 processor unless there is another $270 processor thrown in the comparison.

Hell, I wish reviews talked a LOT more about money.. It'd be nice to see reviews done that compare total systems at a set price point.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: harpoon84

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Well, what do you think will happen?

How would I know, I don't work for AMD's pricing department. I hope they do, but it's not as simple as flicking a switch and saying 'yep, we'll match Intel on price/performance'.

Will it make sense for them to cut prices from a financial sense? They may wish to focus on their margins/ASPs, who knows. Don't forget that it costs AMD a lot more to make a Phenom than it does Intel to make a C2Q...

For price/performance parity with a Q6600, a yet to be released 2.6GHz Phenom 9900 would need to be priced at $250. The 2.2GHz part would need to be close to $200. That is asking a lot from AMD.

You seem convinced AMD will cut their prices though, so obviously we have nothing to worry about then.

Naa, if AMD wanted to cut price they could've done it from the start to avoid all these bashing from review sites. They knew how Phenom performs and they know how Q6600 performs and how much it costs. My guess is that the yield for Phenom is not that good anyway, so they price it just high enough for "buy AMD to fight evil Intel" people and AMD only fanboys to buy them up at the price they introduce it at. The rest of us reasonable people can either go Intel way or wait until Phenom yield goes up so AMD can start selling them at lower price.

 

[Regs]

When did the "Spider" class initally get announced? All I heard 6-12 months ago was Stars and the Agenia class with AMD saying 2.4 GHz and 2.6 GHz. Now we have Spider which charges us a premium for 100Mhz increments. Over clocking or not, 100Mhz difference in processors isn't exactly marketing brilliance.

"At first Phenom was going to launch at either 2.8GHz or 2.6GHz; then we got word that it would be either 2.6GHz or 2.4GHz. A week ago the story was 2.4GHz and lower, then a few days ago we got the final launch frequencies: 2.2GHz and 2.3GHz. "


"Rather than paper launch a 2.4GHz part, AMD chose to go with more modest frequencies, promising faster, more competitive chips in Q1 2008. It's not the best PR story in the world, but it's the honest truth. "

AMD is not the best getting things out of the door on time but at least they're honest. Though now they promise a 2.4GHz and a 2.6GHz for Q1 of 08'. God help them if they have to eat their words again.

 

[Hulk]

I don't think the AMD offering is as gloom and doom as it could have been.

It could have NOT been released this quarter.
It could have been released at even slower speeds.
It could have had NO overclocking head room.
It could have been unstable from a microcode point of view. Anand mentioned no such problems.

It is NOT performing clock-for-clock with Core 2 Duo at this point in time but we don't know what revision, bios, and cache enhancements the next 6 months will bring. We do know that except for minor speed bumps they AMD will be competing with Penryn for at least the next year. And that is a known benchmark for them.

So what I'm saying is that if AMD can squeeze 5 or 10% IPC improvement out of Phenom and get the yields so they are putting out 3GHz chips they will be back in the game.

Think about it. A 10% performance improvement at the same clock for K8 meant virtually nothing against C2D but that same improvement for Phenom will bring clockspeed performance parity.

AMD has the basic hardware to get this done now they have to refine it and get the process up to speed. Remember this is the world's first native quad core chip. AMD did do that and I give them a lot of credit for that achievement.

I'm not going to beat around the bush I am pulling for AMD to succeed with Phenom even if that means just being competitive with Intel and not beating them performance-wise. As long as they can get out of the red Phenom is a success in my opinion. Hopefully that is still possible.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: harpoon84

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Actually, my point was in anticipation of a review like this. Seriously... You still don't get it. AMD will HAVE to adjust pricing especially after these reviews.

You think?! But will they?

Well, what do you think will happen?

Actually, making money on Phenom was never in the roadmap for this year...
I don't expect a major bump in performance for Phenom until March when the B3s hit the market (I'm very disappointed in the delay, but what can you do?).
That said, AMD is still going to make a lot of money this Xmas. While this rev of Phenom is a disappointment, the 38x0 cards certainly are not...and it's also possible that Spider will be successful as well.
At the moment, the 8800GTs (which according to Anand are the only Nvidia cards that now make sense) are out of stock everywhere, while the 38x0 cards are coming out in very large quantities and at MSRP. There is an expected shipment of ~1500 8800GT cards coming between now and Dec 31, but supposedly that's it for this year.

Then, there's Spider...if XfireX reviews well, AMD may get quite a few sales from gamers who want all 4 cards on-board.

At the end of the day, even if AMD stays flat on CPU sales, they're gonna make a huge increase in GPU sales this Xmas, so no worries mate.