Philosophy of Liberty

[bfdd]

Just thought I'd drop this here to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

 

[chris9641]

Good video, thanks for sharing. It brings up some good general concepts.

If you have the time, what do you think about this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66iq40acSGM&feature=related.
It goes deeper into the psychological aspects of the general concepts in the video you linked.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Spot on, it is time to stop doing nothing.

 

[sixone]

Just thought I'd drop this here to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

Very good!

 

[bfdd]

Good video, thanks for sharing. It brings up some good general concepts.

If you have the time, what do you think about this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66iq40acSGM&feature=related.
It goes deeper into the psychological aspects of the general concepts in the video you linked.

Yeah, I have seen that one before though I had just recently watched it again because I saw it was in the related links. Alan Watts is great, it's neat to hear someone so elegantly say the thoughts I've had. Thanks for that share btw, maybe others haven't seen it.

 

[chris9641]

Spot on, it is time to stop doing nothing.

Yea that's the problem. This is obviously something our generation (<30) has to figure out, how to fix the current broken system of today? It's hard to fix a corrupt system by means of that corrupt system...

I think one problem is that it's really difficult for older people to recognize that we are so massively different from where they were at the same age(the mental development of the 20 year old today vs the 20 year of old of 1980). We are so much more aware, yet they still think they can treat us as if we're morons, continuing to hide, lie, cover up,manipulate. That may have worked before, where the only information outlets were tv news and newspapers(christ...), but that shit aint flying anymore.

The internet and technology has made such an impact on our consciousness, that I think we are completely different people, with different priorities and values. But as long as they keep a stranglehold on this system, we're going to keep going in this retro direction of running things.

 

[bfdd]

chris we run into a problem of justifying the actions as defense to aggression. I mean really what we're talking about is throwing out our current system and replacing it or at least modifying it heavily. This would most likely require drastic action from our populace and probably some violence. That is just something I can't even comprehend on how to justify.

 

[chris9641]

chris we run into a problem of justifying the actions as defense to aggression. I mean really what we're talking about is throwing out our current system and replacing it or at least modifying it heavily. This would most likely require drastic action from our populace and probably some violence. That is just something I can't even comprehend on how to justify.

The only thing I can see fixing this without violence is the continuance of technology improving and kind of fixing things slowly and naturally, but this is probably way too optimistic... it seems like violence is going to be inevitable, the current system just seems to unsustainable to continue as status quo wants.

 

[bfdd]

The only thing I can see fixing this without violence is the continuance of technology improving and kind of fixing things slowly and naturally, but this is probably way too optimistic... it seems like violence is going to be inevitable, the current system just seems to unsustainable to continue as status quo wants.

That's kind of what I'm hoping for as well. The internet will be the driving force behind the demolishing of huge entities like the major governments and giant corporations.

 

[chris9641]

That's kind of what I'm hoping for as well. The internet will be the driving force behind the demolishing of huge entities like the major governments and giant corporations.

It definitely is the optimistic way of seeing the future of technology, but check out the mini series Black Mirror for some of the potential ways technology can fuck us up.

 

[bfdd]

It definitely is the optimistic way of seeing the future of technology, but check out the mini series Black Mirror for some of the potential ways technology can fuck us up.

Just read the synopsis. Sounds like a good show, though I'm not sure I entirely agree with some of the outcomes in the episodes or that's how people would react. Remember that's a show about the UK and they have a vastly different culture than ours. There they are raised to know they're nothing more than serfs, that they're owned by someone. They've always had the crown overhead. We, for the most part, have been raised differently so those outcomes could be VERY different here in the States. For instance imagine one of our "royalty" was kidnapped. No one here would ever settle for someone fucking an animal on TV, our prudishness would most likely save us from that. Though we'd probably be far more inclined to turn violent.

 

[gevorg]

End of Liberty

 

[Perknose]

Alan Watts is great, it's neat to hear someone so elegantly say the thoughts I've had.

You and Chris like Alan Watts? Great! Congratulations! Your quest had led you directly to the philosophical and intellectual neighborhood in which I live.

Libertarianism is all about the individual, right? Their rights, the lack of the right of government to put any restrictions on those rights, yes?

But Mr. Alan Watts,, by virtue of his being steeped in Zen Buddhism, believes this Libertarian view of the individual is a delusional myth.

Watts fundamentally believes that the idea of each perons as a separate entity from anyone and anything else, is a societally taught hallucination, a delusional concept which every single Libertarian, and most all of Western society, has utterly wrong.

Watts believes, as all Zen Buddhists do, that we are part of one sacred and indivisible whole. Therefore, in society, you cannot let another starve, or go without health care, for you would be doing this to a part of yourself. This is as far from the primitive tenets of Libertarian individualism as you can get.

So, yeah, welcome to the wisdom of Alan Watts. If you like what he says that agrees with what you believe (and there is much that does), then you owe it to yourself to take a couple of minutes to understand the moral, philosophical and cosmological base from which everything he believes stems.

Alan Watts Speaks​

In case you somehow still don't get it . . . one single, simple sentence from his lips.

 

[bfdd]

Perknose, simply because I like Alan Watts and think similarly about certain things doesn't necessarily mean I agree with him about everything Though the make up of the human mind and thought and what you're saying I do mostly agree with and it is something I'm constantly mulling over in my head as it pertains to my more "libertarian" like views. I do believe both can coincide quite well, but it definitely takes some acrobatics. Plus I'm more of the "be a better individual, in order to better the whole" kind of person. I believe "individualism" helps promote a strong individual, it simply shouldn't be the only driving factor. Like I personally try to be a better person, not only for myself, but so I may be of use to others in some facility.

 

[chris9641]

You and Chris like Alan Watts? Great! Congratulations! Your quest had led you directly to the philosophical and intellectual neighborhood in which I live.

Libertarianism is all about the individual, right? Their rights, the lack of the right of government to put any restrictions on those rights, yes?

But Mr. Alan Watts,, by virtue of his being steeped in Zen Buddhism, believes this Libertarian view of the individual is a delusional myth.

Watts fundamentally believes that the idea of each perons as a separate entity from anyone and anything else, is a societally taught hallucination, a delusional concept which every single Libertarian, and most all of Western society, has utterly wrong.

Watts believes, as all Zen Buddhists do, that we are part of one sacred and indivisible whole. Therefore, in society, you cannot let another starve, or go without health care, for you would be doing this to a part of yourself. This is as far from the primitive tenets of Libertarian individualism as you can get.

So, yeah, welcome to the wisdom of Alan Watts. If you like what he says that agrees with what you believe (and there is much that does), then you owe it to yourself to take a couple of minutes to understand the moral, philosophical and cosmological base from which everything he believes stems.

Alan Watts Speaks​

In case you somehow still don't get it . . . one single, simple sentence from his lips.

Definitely thanks Perknose... I disagree with you though that Libertarianism(individual rights) has to negate the integration of the whole, or for me at least. I think a freer educational system that is open to discussing the larger philosophical questions leads to a less 'I' oriented mind. It's a difficult situation on trying to solve the food and health problems though.

 

[MrMuppet]

Just thought I'd drop this here to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

0:23 is a non sequitur already. It's not valid/"credible" to assume that everything has to have an owner as an axiom.

 

[MrMuppet]

If you have the time, what do you think about this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66iq40acSGM&feature=related.

Alan Watts is great, it's neat to hear someone so elegantly say the thoughts I've had.

I love Alan Watts, he is a great "spiritual entertainer"!

 

[bfdd]

0:23 is a non sequitur already. It's not valid/"credible" to assume that everything has to have an owner as an axiom.

How so?

 

[MrMuppet]

How so?

Who owns the Andromeda Galaxy? Things don't have to be owned.

If I claim you don't own the Andromeda Galaxy, I'm not implying another person does. I just think you're being silly.

You first need to credibly argue the position that something has to have an owner, before you use it as a premise for another argument.

It's false dichotomy. It's like saying "to deny that rust is blue is implying that rust is green". No, it's not. Rust doesn't have to be either, rust can be red.

 

[chris9641]

Who owns the Andromeda Galaxy? Things don't have to be owned.

If I claim you don't own the Andromeda Galaxy, I'm not implying another person does. I just think you're being silly.

You first need to credibly argue the position that something has to have an owner, before you use it as a premise for another argument.

It's false dichotomy. It's like saying "to deny that rust is blue is implying that rust is green". No, it's not. Rust doesn't have to be either, rust can be red.

You're bringing up some tenets of a 'resourced base economy'.

I haven't done much research into RBE though, but proponents say it's feasible.

 

[bfdd]

Who owns the Andromeda Galaxy? Things don't have to be owned.

If I claim you don't own the Andromeda Galaxy, I'm not implying another person does. I just think you're being silly.

You first need to credibly argue the position that something has to have an owner, before you use it as a premise for another argument.

It's false dichotomy. It's like saying "to deny that rust is blue is implying that rust is green". No, it's not. Rust doesn't have to be either, rust can be red.

The Andromeda Galaxy is owned by the Andromeda Galaxy. I fail to see how that isn't a given? Unless ownership is claimed and can be proven, self-governance takes its place. Just like a hydrogen atom, uninfluenced by man, will act upon its own will. Owning itself. Since it isn't man and isn't governed by the rules of our own existence, it may be claimed by a human. Though then we can get into the argument of what's life and consciousness and if we have the right to claim owner ship over other living things etc etc etc.

Like I personally believe the Sun to be a living thing.

 

[chris9641]

Since we brought up Alan Watts, have any of you heard of Terance Mckenna?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygl4ngvXGJM

 

[Perknose]

Since we brought up Alan Watts, have any of you heard of Terance Mckenna?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygl4ngvXGJM

I remember him well, though I would never say I was an acolyte. I really do like his thought on conspiracy theorists . . . very grown up and all.

Conspiracy theory, in my humble opinion, is a kind of epistemological cartoon about reality.

[...]

I believe that the truth of the matter is far more terrifying, that the real truth that dare not speak itself is that no one is in control, absolutely no one. This stuff is ruled by the equations of dynamics and chaos. There may be entities seeking control, but to seek control is to take enormous aggravation upon yourself. It's like trying to control a dream.

 

[chris9641]

I remember him well, though I would never say I was an acolyte. I really do like his thought on conspiracy theorists . . . very grown up and all.

Hah, yea I agree that's a great quote, but, and maybe it's just ego, it leaves open an excuse for complacency.



Bfdd watch the last 40min of this video someone told me to check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrHeg77LF4Y&t=76m0s and tell me what you think because it's freaking me the fuck out.

 

[bfdd]

will do chris, just packed my hash pipe as I have a few hours before work.

edit- that was before I clicked the link and realized it was Zeitgeist. Yeah, that's movie is meant to do that. It's meh imo, tries to be smarter than it is and to much conspiracy theory thrown around.