Plasma creation

[DRGrim]

There are free electrons running around the plasma to balance the positive charge of the ions

Does this mean that plasma made out of ions, with a covering of electrons only on the outside surface?

In general, plasmas are neutral ... Pure electron plasmas exist. Pure ion plasmas exist

Isn't this a contradiction? Or am I missing something? You seem to understand this better then Krazi...

 

[Sohcan]

The higg is a particle. Is is believed to be the smallest particle which gives larger particles mass

Huh? Could you clarify what you mean by "the smallest particle?" The Higgs boson is expected to have a rest mass on the order of 100 GeV/c^2, more massive than the weak gauge bosons (at 81 and 91 GeV/c^2 for W and Z, respectively) and far more massive than any other elementary hadron or lepton, save the top quark at 174 GeV/c^2.

 

[PowerMacG5]

The Higgs (yes, they also go by the name Higgs boson, and Higgs field, I prefer Higg) are the smallest particles theorized before the string theory comes into play. To have a huge resting mass, you do not have to be huge yourself. Read this article:

The Hunt for The God Particle

This should clarify everything. If their is something still not clarified let me know.

 

[Sohcan]

Okay, you just need to be more careful with the word "smallest," as it can carry a few meanings, especially since (IIRC) QED treats electrons as point particles.

This should clarify everything. If their is something still not clarified let me know.

That's okay, I actually do part-time work for the CMS group, which is building one of the detectors (the Compact Muon Solenoid) for CERN's LHC collider...I've heard the presentations of the physicists that I work with a number of times.

 

[PowerMacG5]

You are one of the people constructing the new hadron collider for CERN near Geneva?

 

[Sohcan]

Well, I wouldn't call myself "one of the people constructing" CMS/LHC, rather a graduating undergrad majoring in physics and comp sci who does grunt work for dataset simulation production. Our group is involved in building one of the calorimeter triggers for CMS. I'm attending grad school for CS in the fall, so I haven't been too involved with the physics behind LHC. There's a wealth of information here and here if you're interested.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Oh, okay.

 

[hul]

I previously wrote:
There are free electrons running around the plasma to balance the positive charge of the ions

And the question is:
Does this mean that plasma made out of ions, with a covering of electrons only on the outside surface?

I wrote "running around," but I meant (and should have written) "running within." The electrons are mixed in with the ions. But the electrons do not "attach" themselves to the ions because the kinetic energies of the particles are higher than the ionizaion energies of the "would be" neutral atoms.



Previously, I also wrote:
In general, plasmas are neutral ... Pure electron plasmas exist. Pure ion plasmas exist
(see above for missing ...)

The questions are:
Isn't this a contradiction? Or am I missing something?

Actually, I should have been more responsible with my wording (sorry DRGrim).

Plasmas created by resistive heating (DC, RF, etc.) are modeled as qusi-neutral/neutral plasmas. A pure ion plasma is a special case where one creates a plasma and exposes it to a static electric field. The electrons will go in one direction, the ions opposite. Because of the electrons lesser mass, the electrons will be first to leave the "area." The ions move slower, so there will be a period of time where one has a pure ion plasma. The behavior of this "ion plasma" can be modeled by plasma physics.

An electron plasma can be created with a cathode-ray tube. I think the confusion (from my view) lies in our previous definitions of plasma. My professor calls it a plasma because the electron beam can be modeled with plasma physics. This model includes the Magnetohydrodynamic, Two-Fluid, or Vlasov equations.


In summation, the previous definitions of plasma were made in the context of a globally accepted standard (soup of ions and electrons). The pure ion/electron plasma does not fit the previous definition (because of the word "pure"), and yet behaves in accordance to plasma dynamics, which is why I called it a pure electron/ion plasma.

You will not see/hear anyone call the CRT electron beam a plasma, because in the traditional sense: it's not a plasma. But in the community of plasma physicists (or in a plasma physics class), you would hear some calling it an "electron plasma," only because it's behavior is predicted by the same model used to predict traditional plasmas.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Hul, your new definitions can be considered completely different from your previous one. In your effort to discredit me, you have now proven that what I say is correct for the widely accepted definition of plasma.

 

[hul]

Hul, your new definitions can be considered completely different from your previous one.

They are not different definitions. I only extended the general definition of plasma to a special case.


In your effort to discredit me, you have now proven that what I say is correct for the widely accepted definition of plasma.

No, what you said about the accepted definition is still incorrect:
1)Now in a tokamak, when the pressure is extreme, it take very little heat to start the formation of plasma.

2)Plasma does not include electrons.

3)...therefore plasma is extremely postive. This property also allows us to store plasma in a magnetic field.

Furthermore, I am not writing to discredit you. I am writing so that others may get the facts.

 

[Bulldozer2003]

Two things:
Is it really plasma in those little glass globes that you touch and the "plasma" goes to your hand?


And KraziKid: Stop being such a smart ass, none of your claim are backed up by anything. Most make sense, but then again, jsut insert a few buzz words into a BS story and it sounds plausible to those who don't know what those buzz words are.You've read a few books on matter and energy and you think your expert. Quit the Act. We shall see how much of an adult you are by whether you choose to turn this thread into a flame war or ignore my comments. May I quote you:"My bad, i spelled it wrong once among 50 other times. DRGrim don't be a smart @$$. You probably have no idea what a tokamak is and what it is used for."

Sorry to everyone else for distracting from the thread.

 

[Sahakiel]

It's always fun to watch an smart aleck ass who thinks s/he knows everything get his/her pride torn to shreds.
The problem has always been identifying the ass.

 

[Jerboy]

So KraziKid, what is the difference between "match in microwave" and "fluorescent lamp" as far as plasma quality?

 

[Evadman]

A floresent light is not a plasma AFAIK. There aer just electrons going froma higher energy state and "falling" to a regular state. When they "fall" they release a short flash of radiation. The gas does not ionize and turn into plasma. The electons have to leave the atom for plasma to be created if I remember correctly. There may be some plasma that is created, but if it is, it is very short lived and not intended.