Plasma creation

[saftey]

Anyone know how to create plasma besides the microwave/match trick?

 

[PowerMacG5]

If you are talking about plasma, as in the state of matter this will help you. But if you are talking about plasma in the new type of TV screens, this will not help you one bit.

Plasma is the state of matter where the nucleus of an atom is stripped from its electrons. Plasma consists of the nucleons, that is protons and neutrons. Plasma on the Sun is created from the extremely high temperature of fusion, which will cause the nucleus to separate from the electrons spontaneously. One way that is being used to create plasma for the current generation of fusion reactors (yes fusion reactors currently exist, but they don't put out more energy than we put in, yet) is by using a tokamak. The tokamak has a few different uses. One use is that it can be used to heat up the atoms to the extreme temperatures in which the plasma state exist, then because the plasma is positively charges it can be magnetically combined. Another use for the tokamak is to create extreme pressure in which the plasma state can exist. As most people who understand chemistry know, the pressure of a gas can change the rate of reaction, and pressure and volume are inverely proportional. As pressure is increase, volume is decreased. When you increase the pressure on a gas, the atoms/molecules will start to slow down, and in the case of most gases they will go to the liquid state at high enough pressure. Now in a tokamak, when the pressure is extreme, it take very little heat to start the formation of plasma. When using the tokamak to confine plasma, it must be kept inside a vacuum. If it is not confined in a vacuum, it would take a lot of energy to confine the plasma, and to keep it from touching any metal surfaces which would cause the plasma to immediately cool and the formation must begin again.

Hope this helps, and what are you talking about with the microwave/match trick

 

[Evadman]

If you put a lit match in the microwave you get an effect that "looks" like a plasma ball. I assume that is what he is speaking of. That is not actually plasma, just an excitement of the oxygen combining with the fuel. ( AFAIK )

 

[PowerMacG5]

Oh alright. Then what I say is still correct.

 

[Maggotry]

I work in a wafer fab. Some of the machines I work on use a process called PECVD (Plasma Enhanced Chemical Vapor Deposition). Here's a link to them. Anyway, a plasma is created inside the reactor by shooting RF through the gas shower. Depending on the plasma we need, it can be several combinations of RF and gas, each with different effects. We can vary the wattage and frequency of RF and all kinds of different gas mixtures. The gasses usually consist of a combination of N2, SiH4, NH3, O2, and C2F6.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Another simple definition for plasma that I could give is a "pool" of superheated and/or superpressurized nucleons. Plasma does not include electrons. Plasma is what happens to matter at very high temperature. At very low temperature something known as the Einstein-Bose condensate is formed. This occurs at near absolute zero (0 Kelvins). The Einstein-Bose condensate was just dicovered a few years ago. What occurs in this state of matter is very strange. As we know, at room temperature each atoms of an element, whether it is solid or liquid or gas, acts as its own atom. In the Einstein-Bose condensate, the different atoms start to act as one "super-atom". This super-atom acts as one atom, not the many different atoms that compose it. The properties of this condensate are also extremely different from any properties of solid, liquid, or gas matter that we know. Just wanted to add my two cents on the other end of the spectrum from plasma.

 

[saftey]

So your saying the microwave trick isnt real?

 

[Jerboy]

<< Anyone know how to create plasma besides the microwave/match trick? >>



It depends on your definition of plasma.

If you mean conductive gaseous state matter, this is how you create it:


You flick this

then it goes to plasma state in

here

When an element is in it's excited state, it emits certain spectrum. I believe an element has to be excited to plasma state before it can emit it's distinct spectral lines. Something clear like neon gaslooks clear at room temp or elevated temperature, but when it is excited to plasma state with electromagnetic energy or electron flows, it emits distinct red color.



this page says above is considered a plasma
basically the same as that page, but more details


KraziKid: what is the definition of plasma?

 

[Shalmanese]

Oh Plasma's Easy. All you need is:

1 (one) Universe for beginners Starter Kit - Small (DSE Cat No 94523456)
1 (one) Act of God (TM)

and Several billions of years.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Plasma is a highly ionised gas in which the number of free electrons is approximately equal to the number of positive ions. The free electrons are not orbitting the nucleus in the traditional sense (in orbitals, levels, sublevels, etc...). When we look at plasma, such as that of the Sun, or that created in a laboratory, what we see are the nucleons. If the plasma is stored correctly in a magnetic field, then it should retain its form, once plasma touches the container it will instantly recombine with its electrons and reform its atoms. The plasma state of any atom is considered to be when the electrons are not in orbit around the nucleus. As most people know, in an atom of matter (not antimatter) the nucleus has a positive charge, and the electrons have a negative charge. When an atom is not ionized the positive charges equal the negative charges, or in other terms the amount of protons equals the amount of electrons. In the plasma state there are no electrons orbitting the nucleus to cancel out the positive charge, therefore plasma is extremely postive. This property also allows us to store plasma in a magnetic field. A neutral atom will not be affected by a magnetic field, but ions are affected by magentic fields. When plasma exists, the atom is neither exciting or at rest because the elctrons are ripped off. The electrons are ripped off of the nucleus from the extreme amount collisions occuring at the temeprature for plasma to exist. The atoms are colliding so often that they cause the elctrons to refract off. When you talk about flourescent lights and the plasma state, the plasma state exist for less than a nanosecond. The reason flourescent lights emit color is from sending an electric charge through the gas, this causes the electrons to jump to a higher energy level, then as they return to the normal energy level they release energy in the form of light. Plasma sometimes occurs during this but it is completely unstable for a few reasons. One reason is that because the plasma generated is not magnetically stored, once the electrons separate the nucleus immediately touches the container and cools, causing recombination. This is an inefficient way of generating plasma. It is much easier to just heat up the elements that will make up the plasma, to over 50000 K and then store what occurs in a tokamak.

 

[Agent004]

<< Oh Plasma's Easy. All you need is:

1 (one) Universe for beginners Starter Kit - Small (DSE Cat No 94523456)
1 (one) Act of God (TM)

and Several billions of years. >>



LOL, Act of God We may well just wait until the universe 'dies'

 

[DRGrim]

Its spelled "tokamak"

 

[PowerMacG5]

My bad, i spelled it wrong once among 50 other times. DRGrim don't be a smart @$$. You probably have no idea what a tokamak is and what it is used for.

 

[DRGrim]

Until you edited your posts, you hadn't spelled it once correctly. I thought it strange seeing it spelled wrong 20 times in a row, so I informed you of the correct way.


<< You probably have no idea what a tokamak is and what it is used for. >>


Of course I don't. All I know about this deeply confusing and mystifying type of machine is how to spell its name.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Hey genious, DRGrim I did not edit my posts to change how to spell something. I added a little more pertinant information to each post.

 

[DRGrim]

Right. That's why it is spelled correctly now, and wasn't then. You admitted you spelled it wrong, and now it is spelled right. Not to mention that every post that you mention "tokamak" in has been edited. It doesn't take a genius to come to a conclusion.

I have no idea why you are reacting so hostility. Maybe next time you copy and paste info from the web, you should spell check it first.

 

[PowerMacG5]

I only changed the spelling in the last one. I do not copy and paste from the web. I am a physicist in a world wide company, and you are just a little boy that need to play with himself to get anything. If I were you I would shut up before you get into some trouble. I do not copy and paste ANYTHING from the web. Ask me any question and you will get an original response from me. You probably have no idea what a nucleon is, what the differences are between the different types of leptons, what the different types of quarks are, the difference between quarks and leptons, the difference between bottom and top quarks, up and down quarks, etc... Need I go on?

 

[DRGrim]

You are just contradicting yourself. First you say you didn't change the spelling, now you admit that you did.


<< I am a physicist in a world wide company... >>


You could be anyone.


<< ...and you are just a little boy... >>


Then again, I could be anyone also.


<< You probably have no idea what a nucleon is... etc etc >>


You have no reason to believe that. Furthermore, anyone on the planet who didn't already know could easily look up everything you mentioned in a high school physics textbook. This is not "elite" knowledge you are talking about here. Anyone with web access could read about leptons and paraphrase the info, without understanding a word. Again, I think you are reacting with unnecessary hostility. You shouldn't assume that everyone who try's to help you is an immature little kid who is just trying to steal your show. That's not always true.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Ask me a question about anything in physics, and I will give you an original answer.

 

[DRGrim]

I withdraw my statement.
Thank you Evadman.

 

[Evadman]

I misspell everything. I am typing up a post on AT not writing an article to be published. Most people do not worry about spelling here, unless it gets soooo bad that readability suffers.

And just to let both of you know, you are being childish. Personal attacks / Egging each other on are not needed here.

That being said, you both seem to know more about theoretical physics than I do which is pretty sad as I majored in it in college at ISU.

 

[PowerMacG5]

The higg is a particle. Is is believed to be the smallest particle which gives larger particles mass. As the mass of a subatomic particle increases, the amount of higgs around that particle increases. Scientists are currently looking for the higg at the particle accelerator at FermiLab, and when the new accelerator at CERN is completed, they will look there for the higg. The way they are trying to find the higg is by colliding protons and antiprotons. As most people know when a particle of matter meets its antimatter counterpart, they annhilate each other, and all that is left are the elementary particles that make up the protons and antiprotons, and radiation. The string theory or Super String Theory is a theory that in its most simplest form states that everything in the universe is composed of vibrating strings. In our macroscopic view of the world, we can only perceive 4 dimension, up/down, left/right, front/back, and time. In the superstring theory, it is believed that their exist 10 dimensions in space-time. These extra 6 dimensions are believed to exist in the microscopic view of the string. For every particle, the string vibrates in a different way. The simplest way I can put this is that the reason the string theory states that their exist 10 dimensions is because with three dimensions their are not enough ways to vibrate to explain all of the particles in the universe. One particle that I can use to demonstrate this theory is to look at the graviton. The graviton is the particle that carries the force of gravity. The reason that a graviton is not the same thing as a proton in the string theory is because as the string vibrates a different way, or if the string is in a loop, or straight, it will determine the particle that it creates.

I hope this is original enough for you.

 

[DRGrim]

Just to let you know, KraziKid, I never really doubted you ability as a physicist.

EDIT: Now I do.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Sorry, I typed that before you tried to make up. I took it off the post.

 

[hul]

In response to statements made by KraziKid...


As pressure is increase, volume is decreased. When you increase the pressure on a gas, the atoms/molecules will start to slow down, and in the case of most gases they will go to the liquid state at high enough pressure. Now in a tokamak, when the pressure is extreme, it take very little heat to start the formation of plasma.

On the contrary, higher gas pressures will require more energy (resistive heating) to change into a plasma. This is especially true for the Tokamak. If you increase the pressure/density of a plasma without increasing the heat, you will end up with a plasma of lower temperature. Why? A plasma under RF excitation behaves like a resistor. Increasing the plasma pressure increases its density, which in this analogy, increases its resistance. Thus, more RF power will be required to produce the same amount of heat.


Another simple definition for plasma that I could give is a "pool" of superheated and/or superpressurized nucleons. Plasma does not include electrons.

A plasma DOES include electrons. There exists a quasi-neutrality condition, which is frequently used in plasma dynamics? It pretty much assumes that the electron density is equal to the ion density, making the plasma neutral as a whole. Krazikid's third definition of plasma does include electrons, which is a contradiction from his "simple definition." However, in his third definition, a gross error is made...


In the plasma state there are no electrons orbitting the nucleus to cancel out the positive charge, therefore plasma is extremely postive. This property also allows us to store plasma in a magnetic field.

I cringed when I read this. In general, plasmas are neutral (macroscopic view)! There are free electrons running around the plasma to balance the positive charge of the ions. If you place an electric field upon the plasma, then the charges may begin to separate. And no, a plasma being "extremely positive" is not what enables its storage in a magnetic field. A neutral plasma can also be stored in a magnetic/electric field. The key point here is that a plasma has both ions and electrons, and from a macroscopic viewpoint, the plasma appears neutral. From a microscopic viewpoint, the "total charge" will be the sum of all ions and electrons within a Debye radius (a scale length used in plasma physics).

Pure electron plasmas exist. Pure ion plasmas exist. These are plasmas made in university/industry labs.