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<< *sigh*
Your first couple posts were very well-thought out and sensible, but with each new one, they get more baseless and obnoxious. You seem to be unable, like every other atheist parrot on this board, to comprehend the concept of faith. When did anyone say that creationism was a scientifically acceptable theory? Then again, so many scientific "laws" have been disproved, I fail to see why believing in many scientific theories is any more "intelligent" then believing in a religion. Both involve a good deal of faith in what you can't see and don't know. >>
It's actually very simple:
There's faith and blind faith. Faith is, for example, thinking that biogenesis is a very good theory and then try to find more evidence for it.
Blind faith, however, is accepting a 'theory', even if it's a theory without a shred of evidence, and not based on any observations, thus unrelated to the 'real' world. This kind of faith is called 'superstition' as well.
And FYI, 'scientifically acceptable' means nothing more than that there are any observations or mathematical evidence which lead to the formulation of the theory.
'theories' created by religions are usually not based on either observations or mathematical evidence and therefore unacceptable. Too irrelevant to be even considered. >>
Too irrelevant to be considered by you perhaps, but don't think people don't base their religious beliefs on observation. It's just a matter of how you explain what you observe--a few hundred years ago, you could put a scientist and a priest in the same room, light a candle and put a glass dome over it and watch the candle spontaneously go out.
The scientist says the dome filled with phlogiston leaving no room for the flame.
The priest says God put the candle out.
Both would be wrong. Some religious types refuse to allow their own beliefs to evolve, despite what they do observe. Then again, often times scientists are unwilling to accept a theory that violates previously established models.
One is no better than the next.
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<< If life is meaningless and purposeless yet still exists, that doesn't disprove the existence of a meaningless purposeless god.--If we can exist for no reason, so can he. >>
I never stated otherwise.
You clearly misunderstood me. I was referring to the fact that many theists belief in an 'afterlife' and that their god(s) have some 'grand scheme', they [the believers] will be part of.
This 'grand scheme', no matter how 'grand' it is, it'll be just as futile. If life is a mere test, then it's a test carried out by a some supernatural force/being which is apparantly unaware of the fact that no matter what it does, it'll not matter and that none of its plans actually matter.
Hmm.. I don't seem to be able to catch the essence of what I meant in words. Ah well, perhaps another time.... >>
I think I see what you're getting at. Does this God have a God? Is our universe a microcosm within another universe? Do the fish in my aquarium wonder where the food comes from? If they were to grow lungs and legs and climb out of the tank, they would find me, just a guy with hobby who wonders where things around him come from and if I could somehow get out of this universe, I'd find God, but God's just another guy who likes to keep his own toy universe.
All the dragonfly larvae watch as the fully-grown dragonflies leave. They all say to each other "When I get my wings and see what it's like up there, I'll come back and tell you."
And they get their wings and fly away. But when they try to return, they find they can't break the surface tension of the water to get back under. There's nothing special up there, but each generation of larvae will think that there is because no one can come back form "Chandrasekhar's Other Limit" to tell them the truth.
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<< Furthermore, why would God's causing evolution and the organization of the universe make him a loser? >>
Although the universe possesses some strange kind of beauty, I personally wouldn't consider for a moment that there might be some intelligence behind the structure of the universe. This particular structure does not require some kind of external force to regulate it. >>
Regulate, no. Maintain? Maybe. As an aquarist, I have to set up a balance in my tank. Before my fish can live in the tank, there has to be an ecosystem built-up. Nitrogen-fixing bacteria need to grow, but they need fish excrement to grow. A garbage team of bottom feeders and suckers clean the tank, and heat and filtration keep the water livable.
Once the system is established, it self-regulates. Overpopulate the tank and the fish die off. Still, however, the self-contained universe requires periodic maintenance--change the filter, clean the gravel, add more water.
The universe may be no different. We don't really know.
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<< I'm pretty impressed by the elegant mechanical way the universe is organized....one of the reasons I do believe in a god. Dust particles coagulated to form all the stars, planets and life forms in the universe? If you can accept that, but you can't accept the possibility that it was caused by a sentient force, you're only thinking it halfway through. >>
Have you ever seen fractals? Pretty fascinating things. So complicated and each with its own beauty, every single one different from the rest, yet they're all created using relatively simple mathematics. >>
I don't follow you here...fractals are a creation of man, developed not randomly, but by graphing the results of those mathematics. Sierpinski's Triangle didn't randomly appear as a collision of two particles. You're driving my point home--If we had to do a bit of work to generate fractals, it's not so much a silly concept that someone or something had to work to generate life....
But anyway, you're back to the well-thought out and interesting side of debating Props to you.
And a big raspberry to Pope EXman I:
<< But Hey that makes sence because my beef would be with the 20 "Practicing Christians" that believe in evolution. Sounds like Church goers that are "Practicing Posing Christians" >>
Well, Mr. Mouthpiece-Of-God, don't you worry about me. Remember two things--only God is the judge of a man's heart, and those who come to judge will themselves be judged in the end. That and I have a virtually infinite supply of Get Out Of Hell Free cards (see above link). Soemone I knew once commented that if Jesus came back Sunday and brought the "Saved" home, the prisons would be empty and the churches would be full.
There's more to our religion than sitting in church listening to another human's flawed take on the concept. You should take the time to learn for yourself....a Christian should never accuse is brother of not being true to his faith.
But who am I but a born-again Heretic, apparently?