Poll: Creation vs Evolution

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petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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Patsum123, may I suggest that you read the other pages as the questions you raise have already been addressed.

In re "also... didnt the sun use to revolve around the earth, and earth used to be flat?"

Nope.

You are confusing Catholocism with Christianity.

Dave
 

Zuph

Member
Apr 15, 2001
194
0
0
I beleive in evolution, but i wouldn't say i'm an Athiest. I don't beleive in the exhistance or non-exhistance of any deity. According to dictionary.com:

<< ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
>>



There ya go.
 

agentK

Senior member
Aug 4, 2001
494
0
0


<<

<< and we've no evidence which is sufficient to prove that biogenesis is impossible >>

...thus proving it is a bunk theory...
>>



Amen! Amen! Amen!
 

mentatmule

Junior Member
Dec 23, 2001
12
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0

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
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0
Mentamule, you should try reading this: http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/stengercritique.html

As for your logic page, hehe... I've taken like three of them in college... Doesn't do anything for me... I've personally made no positive confirmations, so its pointless to talk about logic and fallacies in logic. However, the more I read up on this matter in regards to this thread, the more I am convinced there is an intelligent designer behind all this.

Have you by any chance read all the posts in this thread?
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
However, the more I read up on this matter in regards to this thread, the more I am convinced there is an intelligent designer behind all this.

That's because you're limiting yourself to human reasoning, you're thinking in popular human terms. Why not just accept that you lack even a basis with which to understand how & why? To be convinced of anything when it comes to the question of our existance is both arrogant and incorrect.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81
Just something I noticed in the newspaper about evolution and HIV.

USA Today, Wed. December 19, 2001 - page 9D

Increased drug resistance makes HIV difficult to treat
That is evolution right there at work. It is in the newspaper, so it has to be true, right?

Pertrek I just noticed something, and I quote:



<< a) the "panda's second thumb thing" is "evolution in progress".

b) individuals who believe in evolution, believe the "panda's second thumb thing" is "evolution in progress".

once again statement a is false, and statement b is true.
>>



The thing to zoom in on is this statement of yours: "individuals who believe in evolution . . ."

The problem in that logic, is that there is nothing to believe in. That is something that I personally think many people miss. Evolution is not a belief system. It is not a dogma, does not involve karma, does not involve praying, meditating or doing good deads. It is not a religion, therefore nothing to believe in.

It would be akin to saying to you believe in gravity? There is nothing to believe in when it comes to gravity. Yet it is nothing more than a theory, but you do not have to feel it in your soul and have a belief in it.
What about something called the Heliocentric Theory? That is nothing to believe in, but that simpley states the Earth revolves around the Sun, well technically that the Sun is the center of our Solar System, but same point. There is nothing to belive in though, for a dogma to be proper you have to share in some belief, but just simpling knowing what we laymen my call a 'fact' such as gravity, and we go around the sun does not require any belief system.

Evolution falls into this. It is a scientific principal, it doesn't require a scientists to share some belief or some dogma for it to 'work' for them. It is a matter if they understand it or not.
I don't believe in evolution because there is nothing to believe in. But, I understand what I can of it, recognize it and move on with life. Kinda like gravity again, I don't have to belive in it for gravity to work.

So, my personal opinion on that is until people stop realizing that science is not a belief system but more of a practice in learning and the pruisuit of knowledge then people will always be confused about to believe or not believe in evolution.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
Babbles, would you agree or disagree that there is more than one understood meaning/definition of the word evolution?

Dave
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,247
6,635
126
What is interesting is that we are 98+%=2 chimps, less so to monkeys and lemurs and so on down the branches of the evolutionary tree and still share some genes with the most primitive of organisms. If we were created by God he left all the evidence that he did it by evolution.
 

Jfrag Teh Foul

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
3,146
0
0
Ok, after reading ALL of the threads on this post I think one thing is being left out. Religion is a belief. Evolution is a belief (yes, a belief... if it were more it would be known as the Law of Evolution rather than merely the Theory of Evolution). On both subjects we have been shown evidence that supports both of them, but in the end both are speculative to the person perceiving them. With that in mind, you have to admit that this could go on ad infinitum with no clear winner of the debate.

I have thought on this subject for quite a few years and come up a believer in Christ. Not because, I am a "weak minded"(my IQ is 126) or "weak willed" (I am a Sergeant of the US Infantry... HUA!) but because of the way the world and its workings have presented themselves to me. I grew up in a household that really never went to church or would be considered devout by any means... in fact my mother had a bronze statue of a confused ape holding a book of Darwin's theories. What led me to my belief that Christ is my savior was my checking into the subject, in-depth, myself... then allowing myself to make the decision based off of what I learned. From my decision am I biased? Not really, you can see a "behavioral evolution" of mankind just by reading the history of the past 100 years. But I do not subscribe to the thought that a "biological evolution" is the end all of the never ending question of how I got here. In the same token though, I will respect the evolutionists who are mindful enough to bring good discussion to the table... which some have done. Not saying that I only found fault with the evolutionists. I think its safe to say that only some of the Creationists were able to do the same.

Really, the only thing that could possibly make me faulter from my stance as a creationist is all of the flaming that has taken place over this subject... It is the one true point of evidence that could be said to remind me that people could come from an ape. Whether you are a Creationist or an Evolutionist respect should be given. Acting ape-like and calling the other person a doo-doo head will do two things... 1. Immediately turn their ears off to your opinion... which basically nullifies your chance to make any kind of rational point and 2. cause this thread to veer further from the intended discussion.

Everyone has a mind of their own to make perceptions of our environment. In the end, though, death is going to be the only real way that any of us will ever know the truth. Not sitting around, discussing possibilities of weakness in the opponent's court.

For me, my decision is the right one.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81


<< Religion is a belief. Evolution is a belief (yes, a belief... if it were more it would be known as the Law of Evolution rather than merely the Theory of Evolution). >>



Jfrag, God bless you for serving our country, but as much as I hate it, I must respectivaly disagree with that above statement.

A science theory is much, much more than what a non-science person may take it for. I suppose many folks think that a theory is just a hunch, or an idea, a speculation if you will. However, in the science community a theory means a great deal more. A scientific hunch, or guess is called a hypothesis (oh yeah, that little word). Then again you also have a null-hypothesis which is actually what you statistically try to prove. That is something interesting to note, for those that have not carried out science experiments (beyond high school) you generally try to prove your null-hypothesis wrong instead of trying to prove you hypothesis right.
Anyhow, I digress. In science I theory is all but what you may refer to as a law. Technically speaking, gravity is a theory (nut just a mere belief). The Earth orbiting the sun (versus what the Church enforced about the sun orbiting the Earth) is just a mere theory as well. There is a geological thoery called uniformitarianism, which may or may not be familar but it basically says that geological forces in the past may happen now and in the future. In otherwords California had Earthquakes in the long past, the recent past, in the present day and probably in the future. It has rained in Seattle in the past it may rain today, and it may rain in the future. Pretty simple logic, right? Well that is a mere theory as well.
Practically all of Einstein's work are theories, but we take them all for laws.

Anyhow minor linguistics I suppose, but the vocabulary can be misleading which takes me to my next point.



<< Babbles, would you agree or disagree that there is more than one understood meaning/definition of the word evolution? >>



I hate to say it, but that is a very poor argumentive point to highlight semantics as the underlining issue.
Anyhow, of course there are different definitions. My computer has evolved over the past year. So has my taste in food.
However, when it comes to the point of scientific biological evolution; as in random mutations that are favored upon my natural selection. Then I would have to say there is one definition of that meaning.
That is what is great about science. Facts, definitions, yadda yadda yadda. Pentane is not soluable in water always, not depending on somebody's definition. You excrete thru your rectal sphincter, not depending on somebody's definition of excrete.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81
A few other things interesting I would like to note.

It was a monk, Gregor Mendel, that started the study of genetics.

The Catholic priest Georges Lemaitre originated the 'Big Bang' theory, but he called it the 'primeval atom' or something close to that.

Circa 1996 Pope John Paul II made a statement that Darwinian evolution was a firm scientifc result and accepting Darwinian evolution was 'compatible' with the traditional Chrisitan understanding of God. So, how would papal infalliabilty collide with that statement?

Also, kinda on the same logic, I belive it was Newton who said something to the effect that all of his research and principals were brought to light only to the greater glory of God.

I need to hunt down my source, but in one of my phycis books (not textbooks, but other type of text) some physcisits noted that the Big Bang happened, and what not, but do not dare ask him 'who' caused it and why.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
Evolution goes beyond just the word, it is in everything. Television didn't just pop out of no where, pizza didn't fall from the sky. The nature of life is to push foward (although not always in the right direction, in the case of humans). It's easy to get caught up in your own little world, but if tomorrow every person where to die, the earth would no cease revolving around the sun; life in the universe would go on. How can you believe that you're a special creation by a nice old man in a white robe who sits in the sky, especially among the infinite other creation myths? Mix inherent human arrogance & weakness with our infinite capacity for creativity and self-delusion, add a dash of cultural short-sightedness, and you have religion.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
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Wow this thread is up over 300 posts. Come on, keep it going! If we all try real hard, we can get to 1000!!! YAY US

 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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0
Babbles, while a simple yes or no would have sufficed, based on your answer it appears you agree. Next question then, the understood meaning/definition of the word evolution is based on the context wherein the word is used is it not?

Dave
 

tarzanx

Member
Jul 18, 2000
46
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0


<< Circa 1996 Pope John Paul II made a statement that Darwinian evolution was a firm scientifc result and accepting Darwinian evolution was 'compatible' with the traditional Chrisitan understanding of God. So, how would papal infalliabilty collide with that statement? >>



That's one important thing to notice. Strange it hasn't been mentioned before. It seems like the only ones left who really believe in Creation are uninformed people who don't know about science and then the few religious ones who try to convince the rest that some old, white male created us all some thousands years ago and that science is wrong in the theory of Evolution - even though it's basically taken for granted by most people nowadays.



<< Mix inherent human arrogance & weakness with our infinite capacity for creativity and self-delusion, add a dash of cultural short-sightedness, and you have religion >>


Amen!!! a bit rude but true I think.
 

Jfrag Teh Foul

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
3,146
0
0
I think the major point that I was trying for was simply this. Check it ALL out yourselves. Rely neither on other peoples words or theories. People are flawed and biased. Prove them to yourselves. It should take you a while, but you will arrive at an answer. It may not be the same answer that I have chosen to believe, but at least the groundwork was there for the choice that you made. Then you will see the unimportance of proving yourself to everyone when the only person that had to be convinced was you. That was what I did.

I went in with no preconceived notions that either side was right. I then read extensively both cases. At first, I must admit, I did side with evolutionary theories, but there is one flaw with them that can't be fixed by science. Evolution can't explain away my soul. Spirituality is the crux of the evolutionist camp. Biologically speaking, they can theorize or give supposition to just about anything physical, but they still can't explain why we have a soul. Do the other animals in the world have souls? No. They are merely a stimulus/response package. They can have personality to a degree, but they have no notion of living through morality. Keep that question in mind while studying.

P.S. Babbles, a theory is one step above a hypothesis (educated guess) and it is defined as a supposition or statements that are based on a group of facts... in evolutionary theory not all of the facts are there (which, in the same token, could be said the same for creationists as well) which is why I said that evolution is a belief.

 

NorthenLove

Banned
Oct 2, 2001
525
0
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<< Patsum123, may I suggest that you read the other pages as the questions you raise have already been addressed.

In re "also... didnt the sun use to revolve around the earth, and earth used to be flat?"

Nope.

You are confusing Catholocism with Christianity.

Dave
>>




No offense but Catholocism is Christianity!!!!


P.S. My vote goes towards Santa Claus as being the creator of all life!! Anyone who does not believe in Santa Claus as your true GOD and SAVIOR will parish in the unholy fire of WAL-MART Hell and your childerns, childerns, childerns will suffer the fate of using COMPAQ ( COMCRAP ) computers till the end of time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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NorthenLove, your statement "No offense but Catholocism is Christianity" is based on your review of which books?
 

exp

Platinum Member
May 9, 2001
2,150
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<< Exp, it's unfortunate that rather than responding to my previous email wherein it was proved that in light of the facts, faith in evolution is absurd; you chose instead to scoff at the fact that this thread is still here. >>



Sorry, petrek, I missed this post earlier. Regardless, I know your game too well now to fall into that trap again. In short, I have ignored your posts ever since you first began to ignore mine. Let's review the "creationist" argument to date:

-- Creationists began this thread by arguing against "evolution" as defined by dictionaries and encyclopedias, entirely useless sources when it comes to scientific terms. Other posters have since provided a more natural definition (i.e. based on changes in allelic frequencies within a population).

-- Creationists held that evolution is not factual, because it is a theory and not a law, revealing a gross misunderstanding of the scientific terms "hypothesis", "theory", and "law". The relationship between those three terms was then clarified for you.

-- Creationists insisted that the Theory of Evolution concerns also the origin of life itself, rather than just the origin of the species. This (common) misconception was also rectified when you were introduced to the concept of abiogenesis.

-- Creationists believed that Gould's PE has replaced "evolution", by which I assume they mean phyletic gradualism, and that PE is a saltational theory. Yet again you were corrected on both counts.

-- Creationists argued that there was no evidence whatsoever for speciation. When I provided links to the TalkOrigins index of speciation events with research papers cited therein you chose to ignore them. Later, when I called you out to respond you insisted that you would be back later to refute this evidence. I am still waiting for that rebuttal.

-- I then provided a widely-accepted definition of the word "species" (the BSC) and one specific example of a speciation event (Reish's polychaetes) under that definition, so that anyone who was genuinely interested in learning more about evolution would not have to wade through mountains of research papers at random to find relevant data. This evidence was also promptly ignored by anti-evolution poster(s) here.

-- Some creationists have now resorted to arguing that it is impossible to really know anything, a pathetic premise that clearly illustrates how precarious their position has become. That is akin to me saying "This shirt is blue," and receiving the creationist retorts "Well, can we actually KNOW that?" or "What IS 'blue', really??" Thank God that that sort of complacent, nonconstructive attitude is in the minority here, or we would undoubtedly still be languishing in the Stone Age right now.

-- Some creationists now argue that we have not observed the creation of "dogs from cats", whatever that is supposed to mean. Apparently now that your earlier position--that not even the creation of slightly different species (e.g. "fly from fly") has been observed--has been discredited you have resorted to the argument that the new species formed in such instances are "not different enough" for you. According to you "fly from fly" is not real speciation (despite the fact that there are many recognized species of flies, including some so similar that only an expert can identify them), but "cat from dog" (a meaningless example anyway since they are not of the same lineage) would be. Ironically, the fact that we have not observed the divergent development of two so morphologically different species actually supports our current understanding of evolution, as we would not expect such a process to have occurred in the short time that humans (and scientists in particular) have been around to witness and catalog it.

For whatever reason, you have chosen to continuously (and ineffectually) attack the theory of evolution, no matter how overwhelming the evidence arrayed against you. The extent of your desperation is clear by the very term you use for other posters: "evolutionists". What does that label even mean? Do you call someone who accepts the Newton's Law of Gravity a "gravitationist"? Am I a "precipitationist" because I recognize that it is snowing outside?? If I missed something here then by all means correct me, petrek, but from what I can see this debate is--and probably always was--pointless. All pretense of legitimate interest in the other side's viewpoint has vanished. The record of this thread speaks for itself: Creationists are backpedaling like hell and abandoning their positions as usual, all the while regurgitating the same tired arguments as before, complete with bible quotations, strawmen, slippery slopes and more. And I and like-minded posters have, in turn, become weary of regurgitating the same evidence time and time again.

As for you specifically, petrek, I must have missed your post that "proved that...faith in evolution is absurd." Of course, I did notice that you are still trying to intertwine the science of evolution with religious terms ("faith in evolution"). Get this straight: EVOLUTION != RELIGION. As most of your brethren have realized (including the Pope himself), it is very possible to reconcile the Theory of Evolution with Christianity. Either way, I see no reason to address whatever it was you had to say until I have first received a satisfactory response to my post containing evidence of speciation. How ironic that the very accusations of dodginess you fling at me apply most notably to yourself.
 

NorthenLove

Banned
Oct 2, 2001
525
0
0


<< NorthenLove, your statement "No offense but Catholocism is Christianity" is based on? >>




It's based on history. Christians are divided in two groups ever since Martin Luther started the Reformation Movement which eventually led to the splitting of the Christian church into two groups: Catholics ( Those that primarily follow the old testament ) and Protestants ( Those that primarly follow the new testament ) and Protestants are also sub-divided into several other splinter groups etc.........but all are considered Protestant and both Catholics and Protestants are considered Christians as a whole despite their differences.
 

Jfrag Teh Foul

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
3,146
0
0
A question for Exp...

This is not an attack, just a curiosity of mine.

I want to know where you fit the human soul and morality into the equation?

 

NorthenLove

Banned
Oct 2, 2001
525
0
0
I may not be Exp but my opinion is that morality is in the eye of the beholder/society you live in and basiclly the common sense thinking you get by having one of the biggest and most complex brains on the planet to do more thinking and analyizing with. All due to the fact that humans developed a larger brain to make up for the lack of strength, speed, great vision/hearing, traits and adapatablity that other animals have/had over us. Or highly developed brain allows us to use are inteligence to combat stuff like that and come up with complex ideas, plans and ways of thinking to succed in the great struggle we call life. Of which is the need to further procreation and survial of the human race in a hosilte world. Basiclly morallity can in my opinion be broken down like this: "Life is already a bitch way make it worse by screwing others and eventually yourself over when you can work toegthier and acomplish a lot more as a group if you treat others around you a nice manner."


As far a the human soul goes I have yet to see/read of concrete evidence that the human soul exits? Descirbe to what a soul is and then ask the next guy in China or in Africa what a soul is and you'll get many differrent answers all based on what religon they believe in but yet you won't get any real proof or answer as what a soul is and if there even is a soul.
 
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