Poor AMD

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murdock2525

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
1,126
0
0
Hey blaster...the only thing that kid is worried about is if LDT hypertransport comes out as a plugin for quake !!!
 

murdock2525

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
1,126
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Come on guys. The reason they're not producing these superchips is because no one will buy them. At least no one that they can really profit from.
Most corporations are still on 450-800 m systems.
MS found out with W2000 and OFF 2000 that it will take something incredible to get the masses to follow.
Computer sales are down. Not because of the economy but because the "normal " users are content with what they have.
If a 1.8 chip was available now I wouldn't but it for $200....It just wont help me for what I do.
My offices have Tbird 700's only because I like friggin gadgetry and the combo's were pretty cheap. Everyone thought I was nuts for upgrading from celeron 433's.
How damn fast can I work on a website or design a presentation. The software doesn't reqire it so neither do I.
The technology is certainly there for megaprocessors but why bother. If I was AMD I would try to cool the chip down and make it more compact for laptops and such.
Speed kills.
Compare the value of InWin, Antec and the other case manufacturers to 3Dcool,Colorcase and other hotrodder cases and you'll get my jist.
The "masses" don't need the exotics so a company of that size (Intel, AMD,Enlight)cannot profit from unneeded gadgetry.
Much like Billyboy aint doin so good pushing new Office apps to big corps when '97 does just fine.
The WIN2000 slack is a matter of stupidity for users of "98 but most companies are content with NT's reliability. It's reliable for a lumberyard or auto parts outfit so why waste the money for 2000/XP ? That remains to be seen.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
So, let me get this straight...

AMD could release the fastest (mhz) processor at a lower price than Intel, but they simply "choose" not to?

Joe Average consumer looks at a couple PC's at the local Best Buy. One is 1.5ghz, and the other is 1.6ghz. Not only is the 1.6ghz cheaper and has faster specs, but it also performs significantly faster. Explain to me why AMD would "choose" to not want this scenario.


"HOw about AMD's LDT/Hypertransport technology?"

Is there a cpu out that uses this?
 

jeffrey

Golden Member
Jun 7, 2000
1,790
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article

The desktop Palomino does not support PowerNow!, but it will still consume much less power than the Athlon Thunderbird at the same speed. In other words there are other architectural (not process-technology) enhancements that allow for lower power consumption. To make it even more clear: the power consumption does not come from fancy process technology enhancements like SOI. The new 0.13 micron process technology will feature SOI, but not the 0.18-micron process.

Mark did not want to discuss the architectural enhancements of the Palomino, but he confirmed that the chip has several architectural enhancements which boost performance. Also interesting was the claim that several applications will see a significant boost. Our industry sources say that the Palomino definitely has hardware prefetch, and we bet it has improved branch prediction too. These two features make the Palomino a very good server CPU, for example, to run TP (Transaction Processing) applications.

 

blaster31

Junior Member
Mar 21, 2001
10
0
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Wingnut Pez said about LDT/Hypertransport: What CPU uses this?

THat wasnt the point: that was brought up as a retort to the one fellow who claimed that it was exclusively Intel who made technology that others copy or follow...

With AMD getting the support of 100 + companies for LDT/Hypertransport technology, and being ahead in patents.. I wanted to show that it isnt entirely true, nor exclusively Intel's domain.

As for the CPU - the Athlon wasnt a copy.. unless you count supporting x86 instructions as copying Intel... it was designed for the Ev6 system bus, which if I'm not mistaken was ALpha's technology.. it wasnt designed for an Intel based board.

I kind of wish there were some AMD engineers on here.. just to balance out the discussion.. not that I think you and the other fella are being unreasonable (considering you work for Intel, you've done quite well trying to be objective) but you do have to admit you've got a pro_intel slant for obvious reasons.



 

PCResources

Banned
Oct 4, 2000
2,499
0
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<< well, intel is the one who brings the new technology for other to follow.. >>



I highly doubt that anyone who knows anything about it would agree with that statement...



<< Joe Average consumer looks at a couple PC's at the local Best Buy. One is 1.5ghz, and the other is 1.6ghz. Not only is the 1.6ghz cheaper and has faster specs, but it also performs significantly faster. Explain to me why AMD would &quot;choose&quot; to not want this scenario. >>



Well the average joe would by an Intel system either way, he is just not very well informed... We have all seen this in many threads around this forum &quot;intel is more stable&quot;, &quot;i want a CPU that will run all my stuff and i will not listen to you AMD lovers&quot;, &quot;intel is more expensive, and therefore higher quality&quot;... Well, every informed individual knows that all those statements are wrong, but the average joe does not...

The 1.2 T-bird is what people who know anything about price/performance ratios would buy over any Intel CPU, but then again, if you are looking for price/performance ratios then lower Mhz would be even better... This is a hint to everyone, figure it out...

Patrick Palm

PC Resources
 

seewhy

Senior member
Jan 22, 2000
315
0
0



<< Joe Average consumer looks at a couple PC's at the local Best Buy. One is 1.5ghz, and the other is 1.6ghz. Not only is the 1.6ghz cheaper and has faster specs, but it also performs significantly faster. Explain to me why AMD would &quot;choose&quot; to not want this scenario. >>



Because the fact is, not many people is buying P4 box, and AMD with their 1.2~1.3G machines hits the market sweet spot unlike P4's.

I don't know if I am the only one here who knows basic marketing. But there are things call market segmentation. P4 is doing really bad in position itself. Is it a high end chip?? Well, it cannot do SMP and there isn't really server boards supporting it right now. Is it a destop chip?? Well you have to use RDRAM and more expansive mobo which push the overall price over the sweet spot of destop at ~$1300 right now. Regular people are confused about P4, is it suppose to be a server chip?? desktop chip or what??

For people who knows, P4 is simply a waste of money for now, so there is no market there for people who knows technology.

So because of that, P4 are not selling well at all, just look at the fire sells at Dell on their P4s.

So why does AMD have to worry about P4??? Why does AMD have to push their product out of the door right now?? Why not wait til the economics is recovering a bit, people starting to buy new pc, and when the support for their chips are better when DDR price drop a little, 760MP chipset comes out and low cost DDR chipset is mature and everywhere??

What is the rush??
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
No seewhy, you aren't the only one who understands basic marketing.

But you are mixing two completely different consumers in your last post. Joe Average, and Joe Enthusiast. Joe Average buys a significantly larger amount of PC's than his cousin Joe Enthusiast.

Joe Average basically cares about three things when purchasing a PC. Price, brand recognition (both PC and cpu), and performance (in Joe Average's case, that means mhz rating.) Joe Average doesn't know (or care) what RDRAM is, except maybe that it's marketed as faster. Joe Average couldn't care less about SMP or the motherboard.
 

PCResources

Banned
Oct 4, 2000
2,499
0
0


<< Joe Average basically cares about three things when purchasing a PC. Price, brand recognition (both PC and cpu), and performance (in Joe Average's case, that means mhz rating.) Joe Average doesn't know (or care) what RDRAM is, except maybe that it's marketed as faster. Joe Average couldn't care less about SMP or the motherboard. >>



That is soo very true... and sad...

Joe Average will not buy an AMD box if no one that he trusts says it is both better and cheaper, and even then, any salesman will convince him to go with Intel...

Brand recognition is a big issue here... AMD is gaining, but it will take a lot of time before the average Joe thinks &quot;AMD, AMD is good, AMD is stable, AMD is fast&quot;...

I do my best, i only recommend AMD CPU's (well in some cases i have recommended P4's, but that is for the REALLY specialized market)... If intel can show me ONE CPU that has a great price/performance ratio then i would be interested... Nowdays, not even close...

Patrick Palm

PC Resources
 

FordLorider

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,493
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0
without wasting my time and reading this whole thread, AMD has great prices, I would have to say that is enough to attract plenty of buyers away from Intel for the time being.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
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&quot;without wasting my time and reading this whole thread&quot;

Why do you visit this msg board, if you feel that reading other people's opinions is &quot;wasting your time&quot;?

Maybe if you had read them, you'd realize there's a lot more to the market than price. Intel PC's generally cost more, yet they are outselling the others considerably.

 

seewhy

Senior member
Jan 22, 2000
315
0
0
Wingznut PEZ:

It's good to argue with someone with knowledge of the market, rather than some high school kid just saying, no Intel is da king because I say so, no AMD is da king because I say so...

Anyway, I didn't mixup the two market like you said. I said Joe Enthusiast isn't gonna touch P4 because they know P4 gets killed by AMD performance wise, not to mention price/performance ratio. I know you are probably gonna disagree with that, but you are probably the minority here. I mean real minority!!

As for Joe Average, well, not everyone is going to buy top of the line for their computing needs. (if market work that that, everyone will be drive BMW M5 here) My point about Joe Average is that P4 missed the market sweet spot of ~$1300, and it doesn't have a strong message to appeal to general public. That's why it isn't selling....Below is a quote from Zdnet about P4 sale in Jan.



<< Intel Corp.'s newest attraction, the high-powered Pentium 4 processor, flopped in its debut in U.S. retail stores, according to preliminary sales figures.

For December, the processor's first full month on the market, the 1.4GHz and 1.5GHz Pentium 4 appeared in only about 1 percent of all PCs sold at U.S. retail, according to data compiled by the market research firm PC Data. Direct-order sales were not included in the figures

By comparison, the Pentium III garnered 8 percent of unit sales in its first full month after its introduction in 1999, according to the research firm
>>



That is a pretty old article in Jan, but I read somewhere that on recent visits to Taiwan mobo manufactures (which as you know, pretty much covers all mobo makers), Wall St. analyst found that the support and production of AMD mobo is much stronger than P4.

Of course, other than marketing reasons, there are bunch of other reasons like system manufactures are waiting for DDR chipsets supporting P4, .13 die size and new connection type (the current socket will be phased out soon), that caused P4 to have such bad support and marketing from vendors like compaq, HP and other smaller ones (Dell being the #1 kiss @ss vendor of Intel is pretty much the only one really pushing p4 sales).

That is why AMD got nothing to worry about P4 as of now!!
 

Modus

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,235
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People are arguing about different things here.

Wingnutz PEZ is obviously correct that Intel continues to outsell AMD on the basis of ignorant brand loyalty and name recognition. Others are correct in arguing that AMD systems continue to be a better choice for almost every conceivable application, as they are faster and cheaper while displaying equal reliability.

This discussion, however, takes on new life with the news of AMD's recent AXIA core, which shows that even non-Palomino Athlons can hit 1.5 GHz with ease.

Modus
 

seewhy

Senior member
Jan 22, 2000
315
0
0


<< Wingnutz PEZ is obviously correct that Intel continues to outsell AMD on the basis of ignorant brand loyalty and name recognition. >>



I was talking specifically about P4 sales, AMD is doing well agaist P4 at the high end, and that was the reason for them not to hurry up the release of fastest processors.

Overall sales, Intel is still leading because Intel has the volume and relationship with the PC makers. General pulic perception is still a strong factor as well.

But if Intel continue to come out with products that are not better than their competition in term of both performance and price/performance ratio, or force people to accept unpopular standard, (ie RDRAMS) eventually the public perception will change and Intel will lose their lead.

Just one note....things are changing now. Few years ago, you won't see anything other than Intel on less technical publications such as PC Magzaine and such, even if there are mention of AMD, the reviews are heavily pro Intel. But things has been changing recently, and you can see that those magazines are starting to tell the real story where AMD out performa Intel with better price and no lost in quality. So while it is true that general public perception is pro Intel, but I doubt Intel can depend on this advantage forever without coming out with good products.
 

NucleusWDS

Senior member
Sep 20, 2000
673
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0
I don't know anyone called 'Joe Average' ... do you?

Anyone who knows a little ... I wouldn't call 'Joe Average'
Most of us with friends and family can understand the basics of a computer, and most certainly can see price/performance differences between Intel and AMD.

Clearly AMD has a better price/performance than Intel. Surely your 'Joe Average' would see that.
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
0
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Anyone who knows a little ... I wouldn't call 'Joe Average'

Most of us with friends and family can understand the basics of a computer, and most certainly can see price/performance differences between Intel and AMD.


a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing

basically if AMD continues the way they are going, they have a fairly good chance of making their name a much larger accepted brand.

HOWEVER, IMHO, if they bumped it up higher, made it clear to everyone that they don't want to play second fiddle to Intel (they clearly are not to the enthusiast), by doing what we are all wanting: massive CPU speed increases, coupled with some real high bandwidth motherboards.

the other side is this: AMD doesn't look at things like that. they see profits in the mid term future. Long term, if they didn't exhaust themselves by starting another mhz war, they'd come out in a better position, becuase with brand loyalty, even in a slump, you do well. in the short-medium term future, what they are doing is probably best.

Also, about the 'reliability' issue, it isn't REALLY different between Intel and AMD though AMD tends to have issues that Intel doesn't, simply becuase MS doesn't include patches, or anything like that for VIA chipsets.

one interesting thing I'd like to note, is that my friend had a bad experience with a Geforce card (he's very much into programming, though for some reason he had a problem with this). He bought it when it first came out, but AFAIK, had some sort of driver problems, becuase he said to me he didn't see any improvement in game performance over his S3 Trio card (either that, or he never enabled hardware acceleration mode in his games). The thing is, I tend to agree with him, on the reliability/ease of use issue for nVidia cards. I lended him my 3dfx Voodoo Banshee for about 6 months, and he was simply amazed by it. it simply worked, and that's the difference that I saw between nVidia and 3dfx. nVidia catered to the tweaker (both a good and bad thing), but 3dfx simply worked. for me, it's convenient not to have to troubleshoot my computer at all (I find things are VERY easy on my 2 computers now, I barely ever have to fix a problem), but it's also nice to be able to push the limits of performance. I've never run an nVidia card though, so I have not personal experience with them, but I'd have to say that I probably could handle it easily enough (if there ever was a problem), though I can't say the same about Joe Average users.

Mark did not want to discuss the architectural enhancements of the Palomino, but he confirmed that the chip has several architectural enhancements which boost performance. Also interesting was the claim that several applications will see a significant boost. Our industry sources say that the Palomino definitely has hardware prefetch, and we bet it has improved branch prediction too. These two features make the Palomino a very good server CPU, for example, to run TP (Transaction Processing) applications.

I personally was under the impression that AMD was saving their performance tweaks for the Thoroughbred (larger pipe to the cache, higher quality branch predictor (ala K6-2), and numerous others that I don't have a clue about seeing as I know nothing about this field). however, if they delay Palomino so much, it might either push back the thoroughbred, or become one with Thoroughbred (so they don't push back their Sledge/Clawhammer launch).

the P4 currently has not put monkey wrench in AMD's plans, in fact, it has only really let them out for an extra week's vacation. why? Intel was counting on a pattern that was obviously wrong. now that people have a taste of cheap power (relatively, compared to before the Pentium), they don't want the P4 and it's new RAM. most don't even want DDR SDRAM on AMD's athlon (though the switchover is inevitable), at least they have a choice. Intel's P3 has continued to be their only saving grace, but it isn't going any faster.

becuase of this so called depression (I could type up a storm on that too), AMD is playing their cards conservitavely, which guarantees more profits (why release the Palomino, when you can still make money on this current gen?). Whether or not that'll help stimulate the economy is probably NO, seeing as it doesn't generate interest. HOWEVER, seeing as AMD doesn't have to charge an arm and a leg (nor does intel, but they have more incentive to do so) for their chips, they don't have to release it, only to find that it's a flop, like the P4 before it, becuase it's compatable with most current chipsets, requiring less of an investment in the enthusiast community, and still bumping up the speed grade for the joe average popularity. Joe average, will probably not buy it, if the P4 is any indication, unless it is low cost.

there are many things I wanted to say, but don't have too much time to say. I agree with Modus, Wingnut, and seewhy, on most of the issues.
 

Degenerate

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2000
2,271
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0
i come fomr taiwan, and just to let you knowm intel's chips are selling better in taiwan that Amds, that is P3 against the athlons and tbirds.
 

Rectalfier

Golden Member
Nov 21, 1999
1,589
0
0
Intel is selling better than AMD everywhere, that's why AMD has %18 of the CPU market. If you are talking about retail AMD is beating Intel in a lot of countries.
 
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