Prescott Questions for an AMD traitor

[flloyd]

After almost 7 years of loyal AMD usage (just the K6-2 500 and Duron 600 though) I'm strangly making the move to Intel now despite some its inferior properties compared to AMD. The reason for this is despite their high heat and slower perfromance in most uses, I am choosing them for thier better "extras":

1. "Very Good" onboard audio (according to RMAA)
2. Great SATA with NCQ and Matrix RAID (50 GB fast RAID 0, 275GB secure RAID 1)
3. Hyperthreading (for when I'm messing around with different things)
4. Good performance on video encoding
5. 6 Pin Onboard Firewire (for my iPod)

I have chose to build a system around a Micro-ATX case as I want more flexibility to fit it under my desk and save some space as well as for looks. For these reasons I find that an Intel system will best fit my needs as I will only have 1 or 2 free PCI slots for possible future expansion (I will already have TV card) and thus don't want to use cards for good sound, Firewire, etc. My main uses will be audio and video encoding, PVR, and maybe some light gaming (NBA 2005, Age of Empire type games, etc).

Here is the full system that I am thinking of. I am going to see how the onboard video goes and upgrade to the 6600 if I don't like the 2D quality or do decide I want something more for games. So my questions are:

1. Is there anything obviously wrong with this system?
2. The case's included PSU appears like it should be adequate for my system, correct?
3. Is there any particular Prescott revision I should be looking/wait for as far as better thermal/performance properties are concerned?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and or comments.

 

[Duvie]

I wont heckle you cause your reasons are sound.....Have fun with it and dont give a crap what ppl say here anyways...except for me ofcourse!!!...Most of them just want to justify there purchases...

I however will bash even the products I buy.....


For that I have a few thoughts....

1)Acoustical matting...why dont you also say insulator...With prescotts and undoubtedly using stock cooler you wnat a very well ventilated boxes...Well ventilated boxes find acoustical matting unnecessarily or ineffective...However to use it right means to really seal it up more and thus retain heat...

I would say look for a case that can accomodate 92mm fans. They usually have lwer rpms and thus often lower noise, while pushing the same or more versus smaller size fans....


2) You will TV card then but why dont you look at a nice integrated one like the x700 AIW??? Save that PCI slot altogether...keeps case open and better for ventialtion...

3) I would look for something better then the INwin...There is better out there for good prices.

4) 300gb in single drive??? Will you be doing any edting of that video?? If so mayb look at getting 2 SATA drives and running them in a Raid configuration... If not, then forget about it.

I still question whether the SATA II native NCQ is going to translate much in real world to offset the cost and need of that large of a drive

5) did you have a DVD writer in there???

 

[mwmorph]

actually, get 3 120gb drives in a Raid 5. i just cant really trust raid 0. too easy to fail on you

 

[flloyd]

Originally posted by: Duvie
I wont heckle you cause your reasons are sound

Thanks

For that I have a few thoughts....

1)Acoustical matting...why dont you also say insulator...With prescotts and undoubtedly using stock cooler you wnat a very well ventilated boxes...Well ventilated boxes find acoustical matting unnecessarily or ineffective...However to use it right means to really seal it up more and thus retain heat...

I would say look for a case that can accomodate 92mm fans. They usually have lower rpms and thus often lower noise, while pushing the same or more versus smaller size fans....

Yeah, that was the only accoustical matting on Newegg's site and people seemed to like it. However after I did some research last night at silentpcreview.com the opinion seemed to range from "will help lower pitch of sound but not volume" to "worthless." I think I'm going to try and go without it and if I need some I'll get Acoustipack, which is much better rated (though 4 times the price).

Also the case does come with a 90mm rear fan (hopefully not too loud and hopefully they mean 92mm).

2) You will TV card then but why dont you look at a nice integrated one like the x700 AIW??? Save that PCI slot altogether...keeps case open and better for ventialtion...

I've had two AIW's before (Rage 128 and currently original Radeon) so I'm aware of them as an option. I'm not going to get a 3rd one for three reasons. Primarily because they are software based and thus produce lower quality images as well as use up CPU. Second they are thus unsupported by MCE2005 and most 3rd party PVRs. Finally I'm not sure if I'm going to get a discrete card so I may save myself $100+.

3) I would look for something better then the INwin...There is better out there for good prices.

I'm not sold on it either though its really the only appealing black or black/silver mATX case I can find. The only other option seems to be the Antec Aria which is $50 more (that's okay) but seems to have some other issues such as overheating, loud fan, possibly weaker PSU, etc so I decided to take a chance on this Inwin. I beilve I saw somewhere that there Powerman PSUs are really rebadged Sparkle's which are supposed to be decent. Hopefully the PSU and case fan end up decently quiet.

4) 300gb in single drive??? Will you be doing any edting of that video?? If so maybe look at getting 2 SATA drives and running them in a Raid configuration... If not, then forget about it.

I still question whether the SATA II native NCQ is going to translate much in real world to offset the cost and need of that large of a drive

I did have 2 drives selected. That's why I want the Intel Matrix Raid, 50 GB (2x25 GB) is in RAID 0 and 275 GB (2x275 GB) is in RAID 1 for storage.

I'm not totally sold on NCQ either but it does seem to have its benefits particularly when trying to do 2 tasks at once which is when I most notice my slow drives. If it doesn't work out, the most performance hit I've seen it take is 2-4%.

5) did you have a DVD writer in there???

Yep just got the Plextor 716A for 140-(50+30)=60. Plus a 50 pack of Fujifilm DVD-R for 40-40=0.

Thanks for your suggestions they are appreciated.

 

[flloyd]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
actually, get 3 120gb drives in a Raid 5. i just cant really trust raid 0. too easy to fail on you

Check out Intel Matrix RAID it has better than RAID 5 capability at a much lower cost.

RAID 5 doesn't make much sense with Matrix RAID as an option (for the average home user in my opinion). The extra cost, power, and heat of 3-5 drives (RAID 5 doesn't tend to outperform RAID 0 until you reach 5 drives because of the parity hit) isn't worth it. Plus RAID 5 either requires a $100+ RAID card or a motherboard supporting it onboard (which the ones I'm interested in don't). And onboard RAID 5 while very impressive (better than RAID cards) in read performance is atrocious at writing.

I dont mind if the 50GB RAID 0 array of my drive dies (it will only have my OS, apps, etc) my 275GB RAID 1 array will still be as safe as if it were a RAID 5 array.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[flloyd]

My most important concern (because I have no clue) is whether there is a specific Prescott revision that is out right now and I should be looking out for (due to better heat management or performance)? Or is their possibly a new one coming soon that I should be waiting for?

Thanks

 

[Duvie]

I think the sought after one is the E0 or something revision...temps are supposed to be much better and maybe have the Intels 64bit....

I am sorry I have already fallen behind on the p4's.....

I wouldn't wait cause I think it will be awhile....

 

[stevty2889]

E0 stepping should be cooler for the Prescott. The ones with EM64T enabled will be coming out soon, and have 2mb of L2 cache, rather than 1 meg, so would likely be even better for video editing/encoding, but I don't think current chipsets will support them, and not sure exactly how soon they will start showing up. I wouldn't trust the PSU coming with that case, looks to be a bit weak and cheaply made. Prescotts are power hungry, and along with a 6600GT, I just wouldn't take the chance. Also make sure your case has good airflow, as prescotts run hot. A 3ghz should be ok, but 3.4 and up run pretty warm, and tend to have thermal throttling kick in. Are you going with at least 1 gig of ram? Other than that looks to be a great video editing system.

 

[Zebo]

After almost 7 years of loyal AMD usage (just the K6-2 500 and Duron 600 though) I'm strangly making the move to Intel now despite some its inferior properties compared to AMD. The reason for this is despite their high heat and slower perfromance in most uses, I am choosing them for thier better "extras":
----------------------------------
This is just crazy talk. At no time has AMD had such a better chip than Intel. If thier was ever a time to buy AMD it is now. They run cooler, faster, and have future with dual core and 64 bitness.


1. "Very Good" onboard audio (according to RMAA)
----------------------------
Wait for DFI or MSI NF4 boards both will have beter sound than that. DFI will have kyrian audio MSI will have creative LIVE? on-board.

2. Great SATA with NCQ and Matrix RAID (50 GB fast RAID 0, 275GB secure RAID 1)
------------------------
ALL NF4 Ultra and SLI have that.

3. Hyperthreading (for when I'm messing around with different things)
-----------------------
Overrated and IMO AMD 64's Low latency and snappy feel more than makes up for HT gimmick which really means Intel is slower most of the time unless they get lucky and find something to use it's wasted CPU cycles.

4. Good performance on video encoding
------------------------
It's a wash. Read more reviews. AMD wins plenty.

5. 6 Pin Onboard Firewire (for my iPod)
-------------------
ALL NF4 Ultra and SLI have that.

 

[dguy6789]

Dont get an aiw card. Because when the video card goes out of date, you will be forced to either use it and have bad 3d performance, or not use it and spend more cash. I would recomend a seperate card, and like a 6600, as your rig shows.

 

[mwmorph]

yeah a plug in pci card would only be about 50-100. not much more than you would pay for the extra aiw prenimum (considering it lasts forever or at least till pci is phased out.)

 

[flloyd]

Originally posted by: Zebo

This is just crazy talk. At no time has AMD had such a better chip than Intel. If thier was ever a time to buy AMD it is now. They run cooler, faster, and have future with dual core and 64 bitness.
----------------------------------
No it's not. I believe I listed good reasons for my choice. I realize that the Intel is hotter and slower, in fact I specifically stated that. See: "despite their high heat and slower perfromance in most uses," above.


Wait for DFI or MSI NF4 boards both will have beter sound than that. DFI will have kyrian audio MSI will have creative LIVE? on-board.
----------------------------------
I have seen no objective tests, or even subjective, to back of your Karajan claim. In fact DFI didn't even go with the ALC658 which would have at least allowed for variable sampling rate and 20bit DACs but rather the inferior ALC850 which only has 16bit DACs and a fixed 48KHz sampling rate. On the other hand I have seen objective evidence that the ALC880 on most HD Audio boards (such as the one I'm looking at) does have good quality audio properties.


ALL NF4 Ultra and SLI have that. (SATA with NCQ and Matrix RAID)
----------------------------------
Not true. Only Intels have Matrix RAID. It allows the benefits of RAID 0 and RAID 1 on only two drives as opposed to four. Read of its benefits here.


Overrated and IMO AMD 64's Low latency and snappy feel more than makes up for HT gimmick which really means Intel is slower most of the time unless they get lucky and find something to use it's wasted CPU cycles.
----------------------------------
Possibly but I've heard good reviews when multitasking which I do (PVRing, browsing, encoding, etc. at once). I'll take a chance.


It's a wash. Read more reviews. AMD wins plenty.
----------------------------------
They seem to be fairly close, my point was just despite the P4's slow performance in most apps it is as quick or quicker in the use that is most important to me (video encoding).


ALL NF4 Ultra and SLI have 6 Pin Onboard Firewire.
----------------------------------
Not true. And even the ones that do come with Firewire, are they mATX?


Thank you for replying but I am looking for help on setting up my first P4 system, not why I should choose an AMD that is inferior for my preferences and needs.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: flloyd

Originally posted by: Zebo

Wait for DFI or MSI NF4 boards both will have beter sound than that. DFI will have kyrian audio MSI will have creative LIVE? on-board.
----------------------------------
I have seen no objective tests, or even subjective, to back of your Karajan claim. In fact DFI didn't even go with the ALC658 which would have at least allowed for variable sampling rate and 20bit DACs but rather the inferior ALC850 which only has 16bit DACs and a fixed 48KHz sampling rate. On the other hand I have seen objective evidence that the ALC880 on most HD Audio boards (such as the one I'm looking at) does have good quality audio properties.
.

so you counter his arguement by posting links to completely different products... Nowhere there did I see "creative" or "Kyrian". You posted links to realtek crap, and now I have become confused.

 

[ChineseDemocracyGNR]

Originally posted by: flloyd
My most important concern (because I have no clue) is whether there is a specific Prescott revision that is out right now and I should be looking out for (due to better heat management or performance)? Or is their possibly a new one coming soon that I should be waiting for?

Well, there is something you should be waiting for, and that is the Pentium 4 6xx that has been mentioned already. Here's a preview in Chinese (use Google to translate or skip to the benchmarks). They used an ASRock 775V88 motherboard to benchmark, these processors are compatible with current motherboards.

I believe the extra L2 cache and EM64T support will benefit the tasks you have in mind. These processors will be released in February most likely.

 

[Zebo]

Floyd check this out

"The most significant improvement on the MSI is the addition of Creative 24-bit SB Live audio on the motherboard. MSI was showing performance charts claiming their 24-bit Creative solution to be outperforming Intel's new Azalia High-Definition audio. . "

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2319

PS: nothing wrong with your choice..sorry for coming off as fanboy strong late last night. AMD is better but really we're talking indecerable diffs for the most part, especially now that AMD is raping thier customers like Intel price wise (oh how i miss $40 uber-chips).. I just wish they made northwood in 775 for ya..or you wait for 2mb lvl2 em64 presshots...both better chips. Don't give intel satisfaction by buying that presshot abortion with better chips on either side of it.

 

[flloyd]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
so you counter his arguement by posting links to completely different products... Nowhere there did I see "creative" or "Kyrian". You posted links to realtek crap, and now I have become confused.

I talked about the ALC 850 because that is the "crap" codec that the Karajan module on the DFI LanParty uses. The Karajan module possibly helps improve this "crap," but as I said I have seen no objective or even subjective evidence that this is better than HD Audio, and I even provided a link to evidence of my proposed board's high quality evidence. Since you seem to so strongly criticize me could you please provide a link with evidence of Karajan's quality other than just thier marketing mumbo jumbo. Thank you.

I didn't mention the Creative because I agree that that probably will be better than HD Audio --- assuming that they use variable sampling rate like on the Audigy and not fixed 48KHz like on the old Live's.

Either way both of these options are ATX when I specifically stated in the first post that I was making a MicroATX.

The only AMD board that has at all piqued my interest is this MSI board which has the ALC658, "great" integrated video and firewire. Unfortunately the reviews I've seen of the ATI chipset report terrible USB and SATA perfromance, as well as it lacking Matrix RAID (a big minus) and Hyperthreading (a minor minus).

This Shuttle SFF also looks interesting as it will sport Via's terrific Envy for sound but I don't think I can afford just one PCI slot, as well as lack of Martix/HT.


ChineseDemocracyGNR and Zebo:

That's the kind of thing I didn't want to miss out on. Now I just wonder what kind of effect these features will have on price/heat/compatability with current boards. If they are coming out in Feb. and will be reasonably priced I should be able to wait.

 

[IlllI]

TRAITOR!!!


j/k