Prop 8

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: loki8481
join atheists and muslims to form a pity party of people who will never be elected potus in our lifetimes?

don't forget the asians.

An Asian might be elected before an atheist or a muslim. If an Asian is POTUS, they get a chauffer, which means 1 less Asian driver on the road.

I predict an Asian will not be elected in my lifetime and that an Asian has an equally bad chance as much as an atheist or muslim.

naw. we had an asain Gov in Washington. The people as a whole were happy with him.
I think its just a matter of the right man/woman at the right time.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Thump553
My state (CT) had a very innocent sounding question on the ballot-should we have a constitutional convention to review and possibly suggest changes to the state constitution? It was sailing to an apparent easy victory per the polls, but a last minute PR campaign by the Attorney General and others pointing out the convention would be controlled by special interests (such as anti-gay and anti-abortion groups) resulted in it being soundly defeated.

Too bad for you California, it's a shame that a large segment of the population insist on forcing their views upon others.

Yup, all it took was some Mormon with Tourette Syndrome who was released from a mental institution and who has a lot of money and wants the US to be ruled by the Bible to get it on the ballot for other bigoted assholes to approve it. I think it's the third time this piece of shit as gotten it up there for a vote.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Rainsford
But regardless of what a small majority of Californians think, this kind of thing isn't supposed to be what America is about.

According to who? You?

That's right. This isn't a debate about gay marriage, it's a debate about whether or not the government is your personal tool for making society believe the same things you believe. The idea that we should be able to live by our own beliefs, regardless of how our fellow citizens feel, is implicit in our founding documents. Freedom of speech and religion were spelled out specifically because there were the most important personal choice issues at the time, but it seems pretty clear what the general idea was.

ok wheres Rainford and what hve you done with him.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Just a small question on Prop #8. Just why are people trying to enact a religious issue into law?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, just keep fighting and be patient. Gay marriage will be legal in the US, it's only a matter of time.

Sadly, this.

Blacks fought for how many decades just to use the same bathroom as whites? And how many centuries before that simply to not be considered property? Marriage equality is inevitable, Will & Grace made it so. The injection into our culture of well adjusted openly gay people will slowly force the opposition to lose. Every child than is now able to come out to their parents is another beloved patriot in the armor.

here is an interesting tidbit I heard this morning on the news.
sorry was standard tv so no link.
7 out of 10 blacks voted for prop8.
5 out of 10 whites voted for prop 8.
Says 2 things to me.
Blacks to not appreciate gays trying to ride in on thier coattails and Blacks think that the tradidional definition of mairrage is worth retaining.

Once again, the Under-30 vote was almost 70-30 against prop 8. Those people are the future of the electorate and they have no doubts that the "traditional definition of marriage" needs to go in the dustbin along with the "traditional definition of US voter" being a white land-owning male.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Just a small question on Prop #8. Just why are people trying to enact a religious issue into law?

Because people vote their values. Some are mainstream - "thou shalt not murder" - and some are anti-gay bigotry.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: novasatori

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: daniel49
there goes a liberal judges usurption of power as he legislates from the bench. Down in flames baby.
And this in Cal of all places.

Gay marriage was passed by the CA legislature twice and vetoed by the governator. One man thwarted the voice of the elected officials of the people. All the judges did was reassert the voice of the legislature.

Are you a supporter of segregation too? I hear it stuck around until some activist judges decided enough was enough.

Because its not like Arnold wasn't elected, or anything.

You lost. Give it up.

Lost for the moment. Prop 8 was pretty close, closer than it would have been even a few years ago. It will be reversed a few years down the road, and bigots like you will join the bigots of previous generations in looking like a bunch of assholes in the history books. If anyone should be giving it up, it's you...it seems pretty clear the direction things are going in on this issue.

Calling people bigots and assholes isn't a good way to gain support for any future changes. You only make people more entrenched in their opinions and think there really is a war, instead of convincing them there is a problem with their way of thought and promoting change.

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
We may have lost this time, but we'll never give up until we get equal rights for everybody.

This is a much better way.

You have a point, but that doesn't mean this doesn't piss me off. Plotting strategy is much different than expressing an opinion.

People on the wrong side of an issue are always helpful with their advice for their opposition.

Thanks, but you're wrong. Pointing out that the issue is bigotry is exactly what is needed.

During the civil rights era, almost no one opposed the principles of equal rights. Instead, they just explained how it would all come 'in due course', if you just don't push too hard.

AstroManLucas' point is right, but it's not going to change many votes.

Denying the issue, and pretending that the anti-gay-marriage position has some moral validitiy it lascks, is the formula for making the gay marriage opponents comfortably continue their immoral position. It's when they realize their position is immoral that things change, and that happens when they are told, repeatedly. The civil rights movement took decades for the message to sink in. Same with gay rights.

You support the right of choice don't you?
Then it is biggoted of you to attempt to take away the right of choice for Cal voters through the courts.
there now I have made an argument as ludicrous as the one I hear in this thread.
I have linked right of choice. (voting) with right of choice. (abortion)
You have linked bigotry. (preserving traditional mairrage definition) with racism (hatred of one because of the color of thier skin.)

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

I find it mildly amusing democrats are talking about tossing out the will of the people because they dont agree with their decision.

Then they complain democrats get labeled as legislating from the bench.

It's not the will of the people.

It is the will of religious haters.

Discrimination has no business being on a ballot, period.

You're a nut Dave, but you are quite correct.
There are serious problems with prop 8 as it is, the ruling earlier this year made sexual preference equal to race and religion among other things (at least in California) for discrimination.
Due to that ruling prop 8 violates the 14th amendment of the US constitution.
There is also the problem of the people who were married before P8 was passed, all those people are now in a legal limbo. At some point someone will challenge the validity of the marriages that have already taken place creating an even bigger mess.

But I also must agree with GenX's view that something needs to be worked out so that everyone regardless of sexual orientation may have their "union" recognized by the government for taxation and other issues.

This issue won't be over for a long time, and it will likely take the Federal government's heavy handed involvement to sort it out.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, just keep fighting and be patient. Gay marriage will be legal in the US, it's only a matter of time.

Sadly, this.

Blacks fought for how many decades just to use the same bathroom as whites? And how many centuries before that simply to not be considered property? Marriage equality is inevitable, Will & Grace made it so. The injection into our culture of well adjusted openly gay people will slowly force the opposition to lose. Every child than is now able to come out to their parents is another beloved patriot in the armor.

here is an interesting tidbit I heard this morning on the news.
sorry was standard tv so no link.
7 out of 10 blacks voted for prop8.
5 out of 10 whites voted for prop 8.
Says 2 things to me.
Blacks to not appreciate gays trying to ride in on thier coattails and Blacks think that the tradidional definition of mairrage is worth retaining.

Once again, the Under-30 vote was almost 70-30 against prop 8. Those people are the future of the electorate and they have no doubts that the "traditional definition of marriage" needs to go in the dustbin along with the "traditional definition of US voter" being a white land-owning male.

Another indication that things are changing is that Prop 22 passed with a 60% majority. Prop 8 barely passed with only 52% of the public voting yes.

I'd bet that within another 8-12 years we'll see gay marriage allowed in this state.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
This issue won't be over for a long time, and it will likely take the Federal government's heavy handed involvement to sort it out.

We finally have a government who can do something on the issue - too bad the executive branch painted itself in a bit of a corner on the issue in the campaign.

I suspect nothing's going to be done on it the first year, probably longer, just as JFK put off unpopulat civil rights legislation early in his presidecy.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Another indication that things are changing is that Prop 22 passed with a 60% majority. Prop 8 barely passed with only 52% of the public voting yes.

I'd bet that within another 8-12 years we'll see gay marriage allowed in this state.

It'd also been approved by the CA legislature, but vetoed by Arnold - another price for the terrible replacement of the elected Democratic governor, Gray Davis.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, just keep fighting and be patient. Gay marriage will be legal in the US, it's only a matter of time.

Sadly, this.

Blacks fought for how many decades just to use the same bathroom as whites? And how many centuries before that simply to not be considered property? Marriage equality is inevitable, Will & Grace made it so. The injection into our culture of well adjusted openly gay people will slowly force the opposition to lose. Every child than is now able to come out to their parents is another beloved patriot in the armor.

here is an interesting tidbit I heard this morning on the news.
sorry was standard tv so no link.
7 out of 10 blacks voted for prop8.
5 out of 10 whites voted for prop 8.
Says 2 things to me.
Blacks to not appreciate gays trying to ride in on thier coattails and Blacks think that the tradidional definition of mairrage is worth retaining.

Once again, the Under-30 vote was almost 70-30 against prop 8. Those people are the future of the electorate and they have no doubts that the "traditional definition of marriage" needs to go in the dustbin along with the "traditional definition of US voter" being a white land-owning male.

Jonks: thank you for the polite reply. even though I disagree with you.
For the sake of full disclosure though. Do you have a dog in this fight?

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
This issue won't be over for a long time, and it will likely take the Federal government's heavy handed involvement to sort it out.

We finally have a government who can do something on the issue - too bad the executive branch painted itself in a bit of a corner on the issue in the campaign.

I suspect nothing's going to be done on it the first year, probably longer, just as JFK put off unpopulat civil rights legislation early in his presidecy.

I'm not even talking about legislation yet.
I have a feeling that some of the legal challenges that have occurred already will make it to the US supreme court. How they will rule on it one could only guess.
My feeling is that it (and all of the other DOMA type laws) violate the 14th amendment.
If they rule against the challenges it could seriously hurt the 14th amendment itself.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, just keep fighting and be patient. Gay marriage will be legal in the US, it's only a matter of time.

Sadly, this.

Blacks fought for how many decades just to use the same bathroom as whites? And how many centuries before that simply to not be considered property? Marriage equality is inevitable, Will & Grace made it so. The injection into our culture of well adjusted openly gay people will slowly force the opposition to lose. Every child than is now able to come out to their parents is another beloved patriot in the armor.

here is an interesting tidbit I heard this morning on the news.
sorry was standard tv so no link.
7 out of 10 blacks voted for prop8.
5 out of 10 whites voted for prop 8.
Says 2 things to me.
Blacks to not appreciate gays trying to ride in on thier coattails and Blacks think that the tradidional definition of mairrage is worth retaining.

Once again, the Under-30 vote was almost 70-30 against prop 8. Those people are the future of the electorate and they have no doubts that the "traditional definition of marriage" needs to go in the dustbin along with the "traditional definition of US voter" being a white land-owning male.

Jonks: thank you for the polite reply. even though I disagree with you.
For the sake of full disclosure though. Do you have a dog in this fight?

Other than being on what I consider to be the side of equality, no, anymore than I would have been directly affected by the result of most other civil rights movements.

I live in NYC and I have gay friends and coworkers, though no one I would consider especially close to me. I simply don't understand how anyone thinks that allowing two gay people to marry affects or diminishes straight marriage. I certainly wouldn't bother to affirmatively combat their desire to wed.

 

[theeedude]

I voted NO on 8 because state should not be defining "marriage" in the Constitution, but I am also against state recognizing gay marriage.
States should not recognize marriage, period. Marriage is a religious institution that should not be defined, defended, limited, or recognized by the states.
To me what is now termed marriage has a religious/private component, "marriage" and a state recognized contractual component, a "civil union contract."
The religious component should be up to churches and individuals themselves to define and recognize. Some will choose to recognize gay marriage, multiple marriages, etc. That is their religious right, and should carry no legal weight nor be interfered with by the state.
State should only recognize civil union contracts between two individuals without discriminating. If two gay people agree to enter into such a state recognized civil union contract, state should let them. State should not be calling it marriage or stopping someone from calling it marriage. From state's point of view, it is just a contract. Nothing personal, strictly business.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I voted NO on 8 because state should not be defining "marriage" in the Constitution, but I am also against state recognizing gay marriage.
States should not recognize marriage, period. Marriage is a religious institution that should not be defined, defended, limited, or recognized by the states.
To me what is now termed marriage has a religious/private component, "marriage" and a state recognized contractual component, a "civil union contract."
The religious component should be up to churches and individuals themselves to define and recognize. Some will choose to recognize gay marriage, multiple marriages, etc. That is their religious right, and should carry no legal weight nor be interfered with by the state.
State should only recognize civil union contracts between two individuals without discriminating. If two gay people agree to enter into such a state recognized civil union contract, state should let them. State should not be calling it marriage or stopping someone from calling it marriage. From state's point of view, it is just a contract. Nothing personal, strictly business.

This would be awesome.

 

[ICRS]

I wonder what will happen if the Cal Supreme Court throws out prop 8, and say the amendment isn't valid.

What is fucked up is that 70% of blacks voted for it. Makes me think as blacks came out in droves to elect a black president, they also came out in droves to preach hate against gays. Sad really.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, just keep fighting and be patient. Gay marriage will be legal in the US, it's only a matter of time.

Sadly, this.

Blacks fought for how many decades just to use the same bathroom as whites? And how many centuries before that simply to not be considered property? Marriage equality is inevitable, Will & Grace made it so. The injection into our culture of well adjusted openly gay people will slowly force the opposition to lose. Every child than is now able to come out to their parents is another beloved patriot in the armor.

here is an interesting tidbit I heard this morning on the news.
sorry was standard tv so no link.
7 out of 10 blacks voted for prop8.
5 out of 10 whites voted for prop 8.
Says 2 things to me.
Blacks to not appreciate gays trying to ride in on thier coattails and Blacks think that the tradidional definition of mairrage is worth retaining.

Once again, the Under-30 vote was almost 70-30 against prop 8. Those people are the future of the electorate and they have no doubts that the "traditional definition of marriage" needs to go in the dustbin along with the "traditional definition of US voter" being a white land-owning male.

Jonks: thank you for the polite reply. even though I disagree with you.
For the sake of full disclosure though. Do you have a dog in this fight?

Everybody has a dog in this fight. It is about bigots putting their bigotry into the Constitution. It is about the end of freedom from the religiously whacked who want, with all the suppressed fear of homosexuals, to shove their religious beliefs up everyone else's ass. They are exactly what the claim not to be.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ICRS
I wonder what will happen if the Cal Supreme Court throws out prop 8, and say the amendment isn't valid.

What is fucked up is that 70% of blacks voted for it. Makes me think as blacks came out in droves to elect a black president, they also came out in droves to preach hate against gays. Sad really.

Disclaimer: As much as I want to end this bigoted discrimination, if the correct legal decision is to leave the ban in place, they should do so.

Now to answer assuming the correct decision is to overturn it: the justices would become minor heroes to me for doing the right thing against their party and 52% of the public.

Your comment about black opposition is right on. Sadly, anti-gay bigotry is high among blacks. Some don't seem too able to generalize the idea of civil rights beyond 'for blacks'.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
This issue won't be over for a long time, and it will likely take the Federal government's heavy handed involvement to sort it out.

We finally have a government who can do something on the issue - too bad the executive branch painted itself in a bit of a corner on the issue in the campaign.

I suspect nothing's going to be done on it the first year, probably longer, just as JFK put off unpopulat civil rights legislation early in his presidecy.

I'm not even talking about legislation yet.
I have a feeling that some of the legal challenges that have occurred already will make it to the US supreme court. How they will rule on it one could only guess.
My feeling is that it (and all of the other DOMA type laws) violate the 14th amendment.
If they rule against the challenges it could seriously hurt the 14th amendment itself.

I agree, but this is the worst Supreme Court in decades (period, but also) for hearing the issue.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ICRS
I wonder what will happen if the Cal Supreme Court throws out prop 8, and say the amendment isn't valid.

What is fucked up is that 70% of blacks voted for it. Makes me think as blacks came out in droves to elect a black president, they also came out in droves to preach hate against gays. Sad really.

It can't be otherwise. Black people have been subjected to bigotry for centuries and centuries. They were ripped up from their homes and put into slavery. Their culture and all the things in it that sustained self respect were destroyed. Black people have had hate dumped on them for years and years. They were made to feel just like all people feel, absolutely worthless, but they were given the disease in huge doses.

But in the love of God through Christ they found a savior as he cane to save folk like them, the worst of the worst and those who feel so bad they can't even support an ego.

The the book that gave them comfort is filled with lies and hate and bigotry too.

And just as white people needed blacks to dump their hatred of themselves onto, so too now do blacks need the same. Bigotry is blind and even those who have experienced extreme prejudice can become just as infected. We see the same people who once faced ovens locking down the Palestinians in a similar way.

Self hate is of a kind that we won't allow ourselves to see it so we are asleep and upside down. We are all sick as hell and all the same. Only you can escape.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Your comment about black opposition is right on. Sadly, anti-gay bigotry is high among blacks. Some don't seem too able to generalize the idea of civil rights beyond 'for blacks'.

I'm not sure that's correct. If there was a group of green people who had been dragged from their home continent and enslaved for hundreds of years, and upon being "freed" had to fight over a century more for equal rights, I'm pretty sure blacks would support that group. I think they simply don't see gays as having gone through what they did, and might be insulted by the comparison. Blacks, after all, are not the only group who doesn't see gay marriage as a civil rights issue.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
This issue won't be over for a long time, and it will likely take the Federal government's heavy handed involvement to sort it out.

We finally have a government who can do something on the issue - too bad the executive branch painted itself in a bit of a corner on the issue in the campaign.

I suspect nothing's going to be done on it the first year, probably longer, just as JFK put off unpopulat civil rights legislation early in his presidecy.

I'm not even talking about legislation yet.
I have a feeling that some of the legal challenges that have occurred already will make it to the US supreme court. How they will rule on it one could only guess.
My feeling is that it (and all of the other DOMA type laws) violate the 14th amendment.
If they rule against the challenges it could seriously hurt the 14th amendment itself.

I agree, but this is the worst Supreme Court in decades (period, but also) for hearing the issue.

LunarRay assures me that, if they rule by president and the law, a ban on same sex marriage will be ruled unconstitutional. The law is very clear that separate but equal is not equal.

 

[Ryan]

What arguments are their for banning same sex marriage outside of religious contexts?!?! If the government is willing and able to marry individuals REGARDLESS of their religious beliefs, does that not mean the current system acts without influence of religion? If the government will marry two atheists, what the fuck does religion have to do with marriage from the government's perspective?

Don't want gay marriage? Don't marry a gay person.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The next big issue will be to reinstate the ban on inter-racial marriages. After all, if Adam and Steve can't get married, why should Lakiesha and Billy Bob be allowed to get married?

One of the arguments for Prop 8 I heard repeated here was that if 8 gets defeated, that would open the door for the legalization of polyamy and perhaps other "un-Christian" forms of marriage...:roll:

I see no issues with that.