Protestant Church Endorses Gay Marriage

[AdamMT1618]

You can not change what is sinful to non-sinful just to accomodate sins, secular idealism is a product of ignorance.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: nutxo
Topic Title: Protestant Church Endorses Gay Marriage
Topic Summary: Voted overwhelmingly Monday to approve a resolution that endorses same-sex marriage

Even with religion its all about the dollar.

How does Gay translate that its all about the dollar???

 

[conjur]

Belief in a god is a product of ignorance.

Let's keep things straight, shall we?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: AdamMT1618
You can not change what is sinful to non-sinful just to accomodate sins, secular idealism is a product of ignorance.

You're right, right and wrong aren't about convenience. But a religion that doesn't admit when it has made a mistake isn't worth much.

 

[Red and black]

This is all a distraction from the vital point that God hates shrimp.

 

[johnnobts]

Belief in a god is a product of ignorance.

Let's keep things straight, shall we?


wow, you realize you just called some of the greatest minds in human history, in the realm of politics (ALL the foundding fathers, john locke), in the realm of physics (newton, einstein), in the realm of science (darwin!), ignorant... let me just comment here, people do not become Christians b/c they are dumber or smarter than other people. There are plenty of Christians who are much smarter than most of us here in the forums, just as there are plenty of Christians who aren't the sharpest tool in the shed (yours truly). belief in God is a matter of God's sovereign grace, there is a profound mystery to it.

 

[Red and black]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
Belief in a god is a product of ignorance.

Let's keep things straight, shall we?


wow, you realize you just called some of the greatest minds in human history, in the realm of politics (ALL the foundding fathers, john locke), in the realm of physics (newton, einstein), in the realm of science (darwin!), ignorant... let me just comment here, people do not become Christians b/c they are dumber or smarter than other people. There are plenty of Christians who are much smarter than most of us here in the forums, just as there are plenty of Christians who aren't the sharpest tool in the shed (yours truly). belief in God is a matter of God's sovereign grace, there is a profound mystery to it.

Yes, you make an important point. Even very clever people can be very wrong, and can convince themselves of very odd things. The human mind is a very flawed instrument for reasoning. For instance, many of "the founding fathers" would have told you that european men are mentally superior to other humans.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Red and black

Originally posted by: johnnobts
Belief in a god is a product of ignorance.

Let's keep things straight, shall we?


wow, you realize you just called some of the greatest minds in human history, in the realm of politics (ALL the foundding fathers, john locke), in the realm of physics (newton, einstein), in the realm of science (darwin!), ignorant... let me just comment here, people do not become Christians b/c they are dumber or smarter than other people. There are plenty of Christians who are much smarter than most of us here in the forums, just as there are plenty of Christians who aren't the sharpest tool in the shed (yours truly). belief in God is a matter of God's sovereign grace, there is a profound mystery to it.

Yes, you make an important point. Even very clever people can be very wrong, and can convince themselves of very odd things. The human mind is a very flawed instrument for reasoning. For instance, many of "the founding fathers" would have told you that european men are mentally superior to other humans.

There is also the important point to make that the "great man" idea is flawed, because being an expert in one area doesn't lend authority in other areas. Einstein is certainly a person I respect in the field of physics, but I wouldn't ask him about spirituality any more than I would ask him for dating advice.

Besides that, a lot of great minds like Einstein (and MANY of the founding fathers) believed in God in a much different way than what people usually mean when they say that. Many of Einstein's comments can be viewed as spiritual in nature, leaning towards a belief in a higher power in the Christian sense, but I doubt he'd be in the same camp as the anti-gay marriage folks.

 

[johnnobts]

so you're essentially saying that a person can be brilliant in one area of science, politics, the arts, etc., but if a person espouses a belief in a personal God, namely Jesus Christ, the person is a fool in the area of religion? or is it anyone who holds a belief in God, other than a disbelief in God, that makes them ignorant in matters of theology?

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: Red and black
This is all a distraction from the vital point that God hates shrimp.

TY that is my new favorite website...:thumbsup: Along with Chruchsign generator...

 

[johnnobts]

also, i'd just like to correct something. i've noticed the word "bigot" or "bigotted" is being thrown around quite a bit in this forum as a word to describe various Protestant denominations that have refused to condone "same-sex marriages" This would include the denomination of which i am affiliated, the Southern Baptist Convention.

Bigotry, by definition, means "intolerance of one's beliefs and/or practices." Now, there are quacks in every clubhouse, but last time I checked, most Baptists I know (and I know a few, being a pastor) are not intolerant of homosexuals, we have, however, drawn a line in the sand when it comes to accepting homosexual behavior and "homosexual "marriages." If the law of the land is changed, and "homosexual "marriages" are permitted, most Southern Baptists will petition the government to change the law, but if it is not changed, they will nevertheless, tolerate it.

By not accepting it, we mean that we will not permit unrepentant individuals from joining the church, let alone to get married in the church. if we did, we would be behaving like the church of corinth, permitting sexaul immorality to run rampant within the body of Christ, without any discipline, and without any judgment within the body itself. And I know some of you non-believers are fond of quoting the verse (somewhat out of context) "judge not, lest ye be judged." That being said, the Bible does teach that Christians, especially members of the same church, are to "judge those who are inside (the church)" (1 Cor 5:12). believers in Christ have the right (and the obligation) to judge any one else who claims to be a believer in Christ, to see if his life matches up with his claim. the chruch has every right not to accept such behavior (as with any form of sexual immorality), and again, this is not bigotry. unacceptance does not equal intolerance...

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
unacceptance does not equal intolerance...

Sure it does...

 

[Tab]

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own.

Or someone who doesn't simply like a certian profile or profiles, such as racial or sexsual profiles.

By voting agaisnt the legalization of same sex marriage you're a bigot.

 

[johnnobts]

Or someone who doesn't simply like a certian profile or profiles, such as racial or sexsual profiles

or someone who doesn't like a certain religious profile (i.e., Christianity)?

by the way, to quote jerry macquire, "I love black people!" And I love homosexuals, for that matter. though i can't take the credit for that, its not so much me who loves them, but christ who lives within me who loves them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
also, i'd just like to correct something. i've noticed the word "bigot" or "bigotted" is being thrown around quite a bit in this forum as a word to describe various Protestant denominations that have refused to condone "same-sex marriages" This would include the denomination of which i am affiliated, the Southern Baptist Convention.

Bigotry, by definition, means "intolerance of one's beliefs and/or practices." Now, there are quacks in every clubhouse, but last time I checked, most Baptists I know (and I know a few, being a pastor) are not intolerant of homosexuals, we have, however, drawn a line in the sand when it comes to accepting homosexual behavior and "homosexual "marriages." If the law of the land is changed, and "homosexual "marriages" are permitted, most Southern Baptists will petition the government to change the law, but if it is not changed, they will nevertheless, tolerate it.

By not accepting it, we mean that we will not permit unrepentant individuals from joining the church, let alone to get married in the church. if we did, we would be behaving like the church of corinth, permitting sexaul immorality to run rampant within the body of Christ, without any discipline, and without any judgment within the body itself. And I know some of you non-believers are fond of quoting the verse (somewhat out of context) "judge not, lest ye be judged." That being said, the Bible does teach that Christians, especially members of the same church, are to "judge those who are inside (the church)" (1 Cor 5:12). believers in Christ have the right (and the obligation) to judge any one else who claims to be a believer in Christ, to see if his life matches up with his claim. the chruch has every right not to accept such behavior (as with any form of sexual immorality), and again, this is not bigotry. unacceptance does not equal intolerance...

Nonacceptance does not have to be bigotry, but in the case of fundamentalist Christians rejection of homosexuals it is. Bigotry is holding an irrational religious belief based on a book or 'sacred' text the only authority for which is faith. Bigoted Christians etc. have no logical basis for their prejudice except as it was what they were taught is true. They neither think for themselves nor can point to any non religious reasons for their bias that hold even a little water. Their basic hidden assumption is that homosexuality is bad because it is bad because it is bad because it is bad. Such people are also of course totally blind to this fact. The truth is simply plain and simple to them....homosexuality is bad. Actually bigots are bad. They commit the sin of arrogance in projecting bias toward others because they are too proud to see they are blind. They do not want to know how they sin because they build up their egos by thinking themselves superior to sin.

You are what you point at.

 

[DealMonkey]

Just for fun, let's change the word "homosexual" to "black" (alternately "inter-racial" as deemed appropriate):

Originally posted by: johnnobts
also, i'd just like to correct something. i've noticed the word "bigot" or "bigotted" is being thrown around quite a bit in this forum as a word to describe various Protestant denominations that have refused to condone "inter-racial marriages" This would include the denomination of which i am affiliated, the Southern Baptist Convention.

Bigotry, by definition, means "intolerance of one's beliefs and/or practices." Now, there are quacks in every clubhouse, but last time I checked, most Baptists I know (and I know a few, being a pastor) are not intolerant of blacks, we have, however, drawn a line in the sand when it comes to accepting black behavior and inter-racial "marriages." If the law of the land is changed, and inter-racial "marriages" are permitted, most Southern Baptists will petition the government to change the law, but if it is not changed, they will nevertheless, tolerate it.

By not accepting it, we mean that we will not permit blacks from joining the church, let alone to get married in the church...

Should I continue?

 

[LT4CAMSS]

DealMonkey - LOL. You can't do that though. That's not what he said and that's not what the "book" says. Nice try though.


Others - Let's just look at it this way and call it quits. Matthew 22:21 (VA) says:

21. They said, "Caesar's" He told them, "Give then [what belongs] to Caesar to Caesar and [what belongs] to God to God."

To all believers...Tab and Rainsford actually made good points concerning belief (enforcing it vs. believing it and teaching it). God's Word teaches to live in peace in the countries in which Christians live. This means following the local laws, etc. and behaving so as to live in peace there both for yourself and so that the government will act in peace to your people (i.e. Christians). Behaving and following those laws (of course not to the point where you carry their yoke) allows your faith to look respectable in front of the non-believers. This is what God intended and unfortunately is not the case (w/ many religions).

Furthermore, reading this should make the believers calm. Luke 12:49-53 (VA) says:

49. "Fire has come to be cast over the earth, and I would not be pleased, except it was kindled long ago.
50. "And I have a baptism to baptize, and I am anxious until it is fulfilled.
51. "Did you expect that peace was cast on the earth? I tell you, no, except division.
52. "For from now on where there are five in a house, they will split three against two and two against three.
53. "For father will split off against the son and the son against his father, mother against her daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."


Matthew 10:34-35 (VA) says:

34. "Do not expect that I have come to spread* peace over the earth. I did not come to spread peace, except destruction.
35. "For I came to turn* the man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law.


If you are a believer and read that...just chill and relax a little. Things like this are meant to happen. Belief should not be enforced on people. Compulsion makes for very weak believers. What occurs in govt. is not something all will always agree w/ or condone (and that's ok), but it's not something that can be always be changed. That power belongs to the govt. (secular in most countries). Most of them get the power from the people, and people have wanted the separation. So no more can be said.


Tab - Sidenote: This doesn't have much to do w/ the discussion at hand but I would just like to tell you that when these things were written, people weren't as behind in technology as you might have been led to think. Assyrians and Hebrews had long already had large cities w/ large populations, inventions, etc. Life wasn't as tribal as those corny movies tend to make them.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
so you're essentially saying that a person can be brilliant in one area of science, politics, the arts, etc., but if a person espouses a belief in a personal God, namely Jesus Christ, the person is a fool in the area of religion? or is it anyone who holds a belief in God, other than a disbelief in God, that makes them ignorant in matters of theology?

Good reading skills...

Actually, I was saying it is POSSIBLE for someone to be brilliant in one area but foolish in another. You could be brilliant in the physics field, but not have slightest clue about spirituality. My point is that Einstein's beliefs in God are not any more interesting than the beliefs of anyone else, because it is POSSIBLE that spirituality is a weak area for him. I'm just pointing out that it is a flawed argument for authority to argue for the existence of God by pointing out well known and intelligent people who have believed in God. And it's a false authority at that, as was my point, Einstein is not an authority on God. If we were arguing physics we might be on to something.

 

[judasmachine]

I still fail to see what everyone's problem with this actually is...

Why is it do they want to legislate what these people can and cannot do? America is not about limiting people's rights due to some ineffectual behavior. America is SUPPOSED to be a place to live free without government harrassment.

I also fail to see how Christians are so embattled right now, it would seem to me they are no longer the meek, they are the richest group on the planet, so why the fatalist attitudes? You are free to wear your symbols, build HUGE gawdy churches, worship all you want, etc. You are not an opressed people, you are opressing people.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

Hardly. If we had Christian "tolerance" workshops the way the ACLU is pushing gay workshops the libbies would be in an uproar.

Nobody is forcing anyone else to live on the beliefs that homosexuality is forbidden activity. That is your choice if you are a nonbeliever. I don't have a problem with closet homosexuals.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

Hardly. If we had Christian "tolerance" workshops the way the ACLU is pushing gay workshops the libbies would be in an uproar.

You mean "Fundie" tolerence work shops. Well if the Fundies would stop trying to tell everybody else how they should live and behave there would be no need for it.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

Hardly. If we had Christian "tolerance" workshops the way the ACLU is pushing gay workshops the libbies would be in an uproar.

You mean "Fundie" tolerence work shops. Well if the Fundies would stop trying to tell everybody else how they should live and behave there would be no need for it.

QFT

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

Hardly. If we had Christian "tolerance" workshops the way the ACLU is pushing gay workshops the libbies would be in an uproar.

Christians are the overwhelming majority. Who is oppressing us? We control every branch of government in the US since the country's inception. I have never ever seen anyone in a school get criticised beacuse they were christian. I've seen kids get the crap beat out of them for being white, black, gay, smart, etc.., but never chirstian. I'm sure it happens, but my point is that isn't common. The only open criticism I see of chirstians is here on this beard, but this certainly is representative of mainstream america. And even then, its not christians being criticiesed so much as fundamentalist christians being criticised. They're being criticised for trying to write their religous beleifs into law.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: zendari
I don't have a problem with closet homosexuals.

Exactly, you want the law to keep them in the "closet". You know, in another thread, you said that divorce was a sin but accepted by god becuase we are not perfect. That's convenient that you give yourself that out but dont give gays the same leniency. I just think that you should be fair.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

Hardly. If we had Christian "tolerance" workshops the way the ACLU is pushing gay workshops the libbies would be in an uproar.

You mean "Fundie" tolerence work shops. Well if the Fundies would stop trying to tell everybody else how they should live and behave there would be no need for it.

Same would be true if the gays wouldn't run rampant with their sexuality the way normal people do.

Exactly, you want the law to keep them in the "closet". You know, in another thread, you said that divorce was a sin but accepted by god becuase we are not perfect. That's convenient that you give yourself that out but dont give gays the same leniency. I just think that you should be fair.

Divorce is acceptable because an adulterous, unhappy marraige no longer holds the true spirit of God. There are grounds in the Bible for divorce.

Homosexuality is activity befitting the devil and is never acceptable.