Protestant Church Endorses Gay Marriage

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall
From a Christian point of view, this is wrong. Marriage, as defined by the Bible, is between a man and a woman.

From an economic and social point of view, gay marriage just isn't practical.

Feel free to live together and love each other for all of your days, but marriage is not for gays, in the eyes of God or society.

Marriage in the bible is NEVER specifically stated as "One gay cannot marry another gay dude". - In respone the the bold

Assuming that people ONLY got married because they wanted to have kids, you'd be correct. - In response to the underline part

Oh really?
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:24-27
Genesis 2:21-24
Matthew 19:4-6

As far as economically/socially, the world can't run off of homosexuality. There must be heterosexuals to produce children to ensure the survival and wellbeing of mankind. Homosexuals cannot produce children, and therefore can't contribute to this. Yes, some married heterosexuals choose not to have children, but homosexuals can't have them, no matter how hard they wish.

Regarding the part I bolded...

The implication is obviously that if gay people start marrying, there will be fewer heterosexual couples having kids, right? Please explain that one to me, because I'm dying to hear it.

I mean, there are two important things here. First, gay people aren't going to have kids no matter what...so getting married isn't any worse from your point of view. It's not like if we ban them from same sex marriages they are suddenly going to turn straight and have a wife (or husband) and kids. On the other side of things, if we allow gay marriage, straight people aren't going to suddenly become gay, marry someone of the same sex and NOT have kids.

So really, what's the logic here, because I'm not seeing it.

Legalizing it means accepting it as a viable lifestyle. This leads into the discussion of whether you believe homosexuality is "in-born" or learned. I believe it is learned, and acceptance of it will lead to more people choosing it as a lifestyle.

Here is where I get confused. Homosexuality being nature or nurture is not a matter of belief, but a matter of fact. The idea that gay marriage will influence more people to become gay is testable. As far as I know, no one has done testing to indicate this to be true, and there is little evidence I've seen that suggests being gay is a choice or is influenced by external factors. If that WERE the case, surely someone would have been able to point out influencing factors by now.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: zendari
The heretics aim to make a mockery of gods name.

No need. The radical bigots in the church have already done a fine job of that.

As an atheist, it's nice to know there are some people of faith left who understand the concepts of compassion and acceptance in Jesus' teachings. Score one for the good guys.

These "good guys" are encouraging blatant sinning, in their own eyes. This is neither compassionate nor acceptable. Love gays, and accept them in your church and as friends, but don't encourage them to marry (a union of man and woman) or sleep together.

Why not? You have offered as complete case as to why they shouldn't nor have you logically justified your position as to why it should be applied to all homosexsuals.

I'm not trying to justify or prove anything. What I'm saying is:
-These are Christians accepting gay marriage (and therefore, gay sex) - a sin, as outlined in the Bible, and taught by 99% of Protestant/Catholic/Mormon churches.
-A main theme in Christianity is to hate sin, and not promote it.
-Based on beliefs that homosexuality is itself a sin, these people are promoting sin.
-This is against their own beliefs, which should lead to cognitive dissonance.

1 - Yes you are, you're trying to prove that "homosexsuality" is determental to society, the economy and the world in general.

2 - Some Christian are smart enough to realize homsexsuality was considered a sin because most people back in the day lived in small tribes. People didn't live that long due to they didn't have modern medicine. Women had be having babies and one homosexual in tribe would not be a good thing by any means.

3- Yes, but you're making the theme "homosexuality" is bad infinitly more important than all of the others things in Christianity. Explain to my why diviorce isn't illegal.

1 - It is.

2 - Proof? Also, proof that it no longer applies today. Please cite God or Paul.. take your choice.

3 - Every sin is equal. They all accomplish the same thing. Also, I'd be fine with the Church outlawing divorce, except for extreme circumstances (which IS in the Bible). Church and laws are entirely separate. I don't really care if gay marriage is legal, as it doesn't affect me. However, it is not productive for society and I don't feel that gay couples should get marriage incentives. Gay marriage being ordained by the Church is wrong. It's against their own beliefs, as I explained above.

It seems you're confused. The legalization of gay marriage isn't a attack on religion. It's giving people rights and removing discrimination agaisnt homosexsuals. I don't give a fvck what you do in your church or what your personal beilefs hold. When you start enforcing your own personal beilefs amoung others they aren't personal anymore. You become immoral.

We aren't in small tribes anymore, it's irrevelant. People can have sex for purely pleasure related reasons, they don't have to make kids for the survival of their tribe. According to your own logic we shouldn't give couples who don't bear childeren the sames benifits as those that will. I for one dont' plan to have kids ever, I don't think the near future is going be happy. What you explained above is irrevelant, plenty of churchs have already come to the conclusion that these passages don't apply to the 21st centrey.

Thousands of people have killed themselves while in cults, as well. Does that make it right that it's accepted by multiple people as truth?

No...it is impossible to have a hard and fast rule about when a lot of people are right and when they are wrong. Millions of people supported Hitler, but millions of people also supported Gandhi. There is no connection there, a thing is good or bad regardless of who and how many support it.

 

[nutxo]

Even with religion its all about the dollar.

Very sad.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: zendari
cut
1 - cut.

2 - Proof? Also, proof that it no longer applies today. Please cite God or Paul.. take your choice.

3 - cut.

That bolded part struck me as rather humorous somehow

<answering machine> Hi, this is god. I'm sorry I missed your call, but if you leave your name, denomination, and sexual orientation I'll be sure to judge you as soon as possible. </answering machine>

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: nutxo
Even with religion its all about the dollar.

Very sad.

Where have you been? Religion has been all about the dollar for almost all of history.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall
From a Christian point of view, this is wrong. Marriage, as defined by the Bible, is between a man and a woman.

From an economic and social point of view, gay marriage just isn't practical.

Feel free to live together and love each other for all of your days, but marriage is not for gays, in the eyes of God or society.

Marriage in the bible is NEVER specifically stated as "One gay cannot marry another gay dude". - In respone the the bold

Assuming that people ONLY got married because they wanted to have kids, you'd be correct. - In response to the underline part

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: classy
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Doesn't say a lot about gays does it?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
These "good guys" are encouraging blatant sinning, in their own eyes. This is neither compassionate nor acceptable. Love gays, and accept them in your church and as friends, but don't encourage them to marry (a union of man and woman) or sleep together.

These "good guys" aren't closet homophobes.

You're entitled to your opinion and your beliefs, but you'll have to take it up with other Christians who disagree with you. If you're outvoted, you'll have to deal with it.

Fortunately, that's not my problem.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: zendari
Looks like liberals went from hating the church to hijacking it. If you can't beat em, join em. The heretics aim to make a mockery of gods name.

Whatever you say, mister holier-than-thou. Judge not lest you be judged ... ahh, never mind, it's a wasted effort.

Is Zendari a man? Her (his) avatar is a woman.

But in any event, liberals don't hate churches. To paraphrase right-wing fundies: Liberals hate the ignorance, not the ignoramus.

Sorta like hate the sin not hte sinner.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
1 - It is.

BULLSH8! You could no more prove that than I can prove you are determental to society, the economy and the world in general.

2 - Proof? Also, proof that it no longer applies today. Please cite God or Paul.. take your choice.

Unless you are either the Jesus or Paul to which you refer, you'll have to take that up with a bunch of other Christians who see other interpretations of writings that have gone through centuries of translations from one language to another and a number of interpretations, many of them written for political motives having nothing to do with religion.

3 - Every sin is equal. They all accomplish the same thing.

Then you've got some serious problems considering your blind bigotry.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I have a question for the religious conservatives in this thread...how do you think Jesus would feel about the government outlawing gay marriage? Certainly you might have a case for gay marriage not being an accepted part of Christianity, but there is little evidence in the Bible to support using a democractic government to force everyone to live by your religious beliefs. Obviously democracy wasn't a real popular thing when the Bible was written, but from what I remember, emphasis was placed on teaching and voluntary religious education vs enforcement of religious rules.

Believing something and teaching those beliefs to others is fine, forcing others to abide by those beliefs is not really supported as well. Certainly there are people who want to ban gay marriage for non-religious reasons (or so they claim), but those of you who base your argument on religion are missing the point. Whether your religion says it's bad or not, what does your religion say about forcing non-believers to live by your beliefs?

Nobody is telling you not to be a homosexual. A society in which the greatest of sins is sponsored and encouraged by the public is a society unfit to raise healthy children.

Doesn't say a lot about gays does it?

You missed the worlds male and female, apparently, dictating who is to be joined together.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: joshsquall
From a Christian point of view, this is wrong. Marriage, as defined by the Bible, is between a man and a woman.

From an economic and social point of view, gay marriage just isn't practical.

Feel free to live together and love each other for all of your days, but marriage is not for gays, in the eyes of God or society.

Marriage in the bible is NEVER specifically stated as "One gay cannot marry another gay dude". - In respone the the bold

Assuming that people ONLY got married because they wanted to have kids, you'd be correct. - In response to the underline part

Oh really?
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:24-27
Genesis 2:21-24
Matthew 19:4-6

As far as economically/socially, the world can't run off of homosexuality. There must be heterosexuals to produce children to ensure the survival and wellbeing of mankind. Homosexuals cannot produce children, and therefore can't contribute to this. Yes, some married heterosexuals choose not to have children, but homosexuals can't have them, no matter how hard they wish.

Woah "the world can't run off of homosexuality" you need to check your demographics here! Gays make up a rough 10% of the total human population. That figure has been steady for as long as it has been tracked. I don't think in anyway you or I will ever wake up to a world where heteros are 10% of the population and gays rule the world. So what is you beef here other than wanting to desperatly find some reason to impose your will on other people who are different than you?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: zendari
A society in which the greatest of sins is sponsored and encouraged by the public is a society unfit to raise healthy children.

You're right. This society is giving the radical clerics too much influence on our government. It's time to put these religious fundamentalists back into their holes.

 

[Jadow]

that's fine with me if they do it, I could care less, but how can they square that with the bible?

 

[sandorski]

"Don't fret over the speck in your brothers eye when there is a log in your own" translation: Mind your own fukn business!

If you think it's a Sin, don't do it. What others do, they do.

 

[zendari]

Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

You're sort of a strange guy

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

A good example of projection. The radical religious right is so used to pushing their values on other people that they think others are going to do the same thing.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Jadow
that's fine with me if they do it, I could care less, but how can they square that with the bible?

I suspect they are looking at it as following the spirit of the religion, not the letter.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

A good example of projection. The radical religious right is so used to pushing their values on other people that they think others are going to do the same thing.

Used to? The radical religious right has only been inpower for 5 years. I guess you can thank those gays in San Francisco and Vermont for that.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

A good example of projection. The radical religious right is so used to pushing their values on other people that they think others are going to do the same thing.

Used to? The radical religious right has only been inpower for 5 years. I guess you can thank those gays in San Francisco and Vermont for that.

Haha, come on, you can't be that blind.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I have a question for the religious conservatives in this thread...how do you think Jesus would feel about the government outlawing gay marriage? Certainly you might have a case for gay marriage not being an accepted part of Christianity, but there is little evidence in the Bible to support using a democractic government to force everyone to live by your religious beliefs. Obviously democracy wasn't a real popular thing when the Bible was written, but from what I remember, emphasis was placed on teaching and voluntary religious education vs enforcement of religious rules.

Believing something and teaching those beliefs to others is fine, forcing others to abide by those beliefs is not really supported as well. Certainly there are people who want to ban gay marriage for non-religious reasons (or so they claim), but those of you who base your argument on religion are missing the point. Whether your religion says it's bad or not, what does your religion say about forcing non-believers to live by your beliefs?

Nobody is telling you not to be a homosexual. A society in which the greatest of sins is sponsored and encouraged by the public is a society unfit to raise healthy children.

Did you even read what I wrote? I am simply asking how you make the leap from "my religion says gay marriage is bad" to "we should outlaw gay marriage". Certainly we all have some sort of spiritual beliefs to one extent or another, but most of us realize that those beliefs are not something we can go around forcing everyone to abide by.

We all get that you don't like gay marriage (or homosexuality at all, apparently), but what about your religion (or your country for that matter) justifies forcing everyone to live by your religious beliefs on gay marriage? I went to several years of Catholic school, and if I got one thing out of it, it's that the real focus of true believers should be internal, not external. Worry about your own spirituality and your personal relationship with Jesus. Encourage others when possible, but this crusade mentality you people have going goes against everything Jesus tried to teach. Christianity, and religion in general, is not about forcing other people to live by your religious beliefs. It's an internal thing, not an external one.

And since when is homosexuality "one of the greatest sins"? I can think of quite a few that are a lot worse.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

 

[MicroChrome]

Now we just need a church that will start believing evolution and abortion as fact...

You'd probably have a radical war on our hands but that is what this country needs to wake up and figure out that religion obviously does not belong in your government or schools....

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Don't teach our kids that its a virtue to be gay in public schools and half the problems go away.You can start up gay schools if you wish like we have catholic schools.

Public schools aren't pro-gay and more than they are pro-Catholic, they teach acceptance and tolerance. Being gay is just like being Catholic, it's great if that's what works for you.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Now that's funny and true.