Putin throws Bush a curve

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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When Presidents George W. Bush and Vladimir Putin faced the press after their meeting at the G8 summit in Heiligendamm on Thursday, it seemed for a while that their encounter had produced little but platitudes.

"There are a lot of people who do not like it when the US and Russia argue and it creates tensions," said Mr Bush. "It's much better to work together."

But when Mr Putin took his turn to speak, it became clear that their talks had been more substantive than Mr Bush's remarks implied.

Mr Putin explained he had proposed the use of a former Soviet radar base in Azerbaijan as an alternative to the controversial missile defence facilities the US is planning to build in central Europe.

The offer raised the prospect of unprecedented military co-operation between the US and Russia and provided a potential solution to their bitter dispute over missile defence. But after the two leaders finished their news conference, it was obvious the proposal had caught the US by surprise.

Stephen Hadley, US national security adviser, huddled with other senior White House aides before briefing reporters about the Russian plan. "It is a bold proposal. We have to have our experts look at it."

Three days earlier in Prague, Mr Bush had invited Russia to "participate" in the US missile defence programme, as part of efforts to reassure Moscow that its ballistic missile arsenal was not the target of the technology.

But it is almost certain that outsourcing a crucial part of the US missile defence system to a former Soviet state was not what Mr Bush had in mind.

Washington must now establish whether the proposal signals serious Russian interest in taking part in the missile shield and narrowing differences with the US, or whether it is a spoiling tactic designed to stall the programme and divide Washington from its central European allies.

Mr Hadley sought to promote the former interpretation, arguing that the Putin plan indicated that Moscow had now accepted that it could benefit from a US missile shield.

"The goal, obviously, is a system that will protect Russia, the United States and Europe from these kinds of rogue state threats," he said, referring to hostile countries that could one day develop nuclear weapons.

Mr Putin's proposal involves a radar station in Gabala, Azerbaijan, that has remained jointly operated by Russia since the break-up of the Soviet Union.

He views it as a potential substitute for the planned US radar in the Czech Republic that Moscow opposes. But Mr Hadley said the US remained committed to both the Czech site and a proposed base for missile interceptors in Poland.

Mr Putin and Mr Bush have a chance to narrow their differences when the Russian leader travels to the US for more talks with his counterpart at the Bush family summer home in Kennebunkport, Maine, next month

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Much to Bush's suprise he asked for cooperation and got it in spades. The facility is perfect for detecting missle launches of the type supposedly concerning Bush. Being in old USSR territory, Putin has some control over the situation, so any threat Russia may have been concerned with is somewhat abated.

Fly in the ointment? Bush will want complete control over the situation, but he'll have to share it. Bush's compromises tend to run in the flavor of "I am glad to let you do exactly what I tell you."

He'll have to wiggle out of this as his ego won't abide this. I wonder what excuses will be made.

 

Kntx

Platinum Member
Dec 11, 2000
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Russian radar? Come on, doesn't the missile shield have enough problems already?
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
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Strange thing is, the missile shield doesn't even work. And Putin knows it. This has been a PR opportunity for Putin.

So think about this: why would Bush want to give all that money to the defense industry?
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
<throws on the tinfoil hat> It has a huge oil reserve too!

Ok, someone had to say it

Also, Russia has had that system in Moscow for a long time. The same as how we've had one out in South Dakota -- or at least did.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: db
Strange thing is, the missile shield doesn't even work. And Putin knows it. This has been a PR opportunity for Putin.

So think about this: why would Bush want to give all that money to the defense industry?

I think that's the point of the OP. Either Bush and his foreign policy team are morons galore . . . or Russia and Iran are just better.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
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Originally posted by: Strk
<throws on the tinfoil hat> It has a huge oil reserve too!

Ok, someone had to say it

Also, Russia has had that system in Moscow for a long time. The same as how we've had one out in South Dakota -- or at least did.
our current "missile defense shield" is not in South Dakota...
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: db
Strange thing is, the missile shield doesn't even work. And Putin knows it. This has been a PR opportunity for Putin.

So think about this: why would Bush want to give all that money to the defense industry?

I think that's the point of the OP. Either Bush and his foreign policy team are morons galore . . . or Russia and Iran are just better.

Bush has been pushing for missle defense forever. It doesn't need to work, but it needs to be deployed. Now is his chance to expand the program and look like he's doing something. Doesn't matter what we think, or what the reality of the situation is. To him he looks good. So he sells this as a "no alternative" situation, then Putin decided to do what Bush did with the environmental initiative at the G8 and that is to embrace it and therefore kill it.

Bush asked for Putin's cooperation never expecting to get anything other than a grudging "OK". Now GWB doens't have to prove the system works, but he needs to find a reason to not use a very sophisticated (and yes sophisticated is the word) facility offered to him in the "spirit of international interests" my quote. For his part, Putin wins because nothing of the kind has ever been offered by either the US or the former USSR. It's unprecidented. He's the hero, and Bush plays second fiddle. If Bush says no, then Putin made the grand offer, and gets marks for it while Bush is shown to be petty and false.

Either way, Putin wins, and Bush at best gets also ran status.

I personally thing we ought to accept Putins offer. Eventually both leaders will be gone, and if more rational beings get into power it offers at least a strong symbolic start to world cooperation in what is a serious situation.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Doesn't work, never will, complete waste of money.

We all know, if Iran or some other "rogue nation" were to obtain nuclear weapons, they wouldn't launch a missile to deploy it, within 2 minutes there would be salvos from us and perhaps the Russians and their entire country would be glass.


 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,302
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Originally posted by: senseamp
Russia actually has a working missile defense system around Moscow

And have for decades....its just that it usually consists of nuclear tipped ABMs which pretty much the whole world has given up on. The Russians have always been ultra paranoid about air defense around Moscow.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: Aimster
Isn't the Russian S-400 a great missile defense system?

Supposed to be good but it nor its predecessor have ever seen combat.

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: ayabe
Doesn't work, never will, complete waste of money.

We all know, if Iran or some other "rogue nation" were to obtain nuclear weapons, they wouldn't launch a missile to deploy it, within 2 minutes there would be salvos from us and perhaps the Russians and their entire country would be glass.

This goes far beyond if it works or doesn't work. IMO this is more about statesmenship. Bush gets where he does in the world because he has the US behind him. He starts off at the 90M mark in a 100M dash. Putin on the other hand doesn't have nearly that kind of advantage. He has to think and use situations to his advantage.

I've watched Putin for many years, and in some regards I admire him. Not what he does, or who he is, but how effective he can be. He's probably one of the most capable heads of state in the world today. It's unfortunate he doesn't use his considerable talent to the benefit of his people.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: ayabe
Doesn't work, never will, complete waste of money.

We all know, if Iran or some other "rogue nation" were to obtain nuclear weapons, they wouldn't launch a missile to deploy it, within 2 minutes there would be salvos from us and perhaps the Russians and their entire country would be glass.

This goes far beyond if it works or doesn't work. IMO this is more about statesmenship. Bush gets where he does in the world because he has the US behind him. He starts off at the 90M mark in a 100M dash. Putin on the other hand doesn't have nearly that kind of advantage. He has to think and use situations to his advantage.

I've watched Putin for many years, and in some regards I admire him. Not what he does, or who he is, but how effective he can be. He's probably one of the most capable heads of state in the world today. It's unfortunate he doesn't use his considerable talent to the benefit of his people.

Well Putin has to cater to his cadre of KGB buddies and what remains of the old hardliners who long for the glory days when the USSR was neck and neck with the US in terms of global sway.

While that capacity is greatly diminished, Russia still has a Sec Council seat, natural resources, a few thousand nukes, and some great scientists and engineers. Combined, these attribute to Russia's ability to put a damper on our plans in many situations - which in many cases in is their best interest to do. Russians are a proud people with a long history and kowtowing to us will probably never be on their agenda.

I can't pin the blame for our souring relationship purely on Bush, but Putin does have some good points about how the US shouldn't be pointing fingers at him when our own democratic core seems to have gone off the rails over the past 6+ years.

We don't hold the moral high ground on that issue and it's doubtful to me whether we ever will again.

Putin is a great politician for better or for worse and personally I have much less of a problem being an ally of a semi-Democratic Russia, than a total despotic regime like that of the Saudi's or even China. I still see China as a much worse problem in terms of human rights, and anti-democratic policies than Russia.

But hey, China is our BFF, despite the fact that they are basically funding what is happening in Darfur.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,813
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Strk
<throws on the tinfoil hat> It has a huge oil reserve too!

Ok, someone had to say it

Also, Russia has had that system in Moscow for a long time. The same as how we've had one out in South Dakota -- or at least did.
our current "missile defense shield" is not in South Dakota...



Sure it is, right behind Team America Headquarters atop Mt Rushmore.



 

Zedtom

Platinum Member
Nov 23, 2001
2,146
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Our President is one of those individuals who can show real brilliance when he's been coached beforehand. His weakness is thinking quickly when faced with a remark that knocks him off balance.

I'd love to see him show some real guts and throw down a challenge, instead of whining that these issues will be sorted out at Daddy's house next week.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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Azerbajan makes a lot more sense seeing how it's next to Iran.
Of course this system was never directed at Iran, but at Russia. Putin is just testing to confirm if the US really means it when we tell him "Cold War is over"
The neocons are really keen on reigniting the Cold War, since the arms race was good for business.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Strk
<throws on the tinfoil hat> It has a huge oil reserve too!

Ok, someone had to say it

Also, Russia has had that system in Moscow for a long time. The same as how we've had one out in South Dakota -- or at least did.
our current "missile defense shield" is not in South Dakota...
Sure it is, right behind Team America Headquarters atop Mt Rushmore.

Damn You! Durka Durka Durka!!
 

LAsick

Member
May 24, 2007
48
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I find it amazing building a missile defense system in Europe when we cant even build a god damn fence between the U.S. and Mexico!
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Originally posted by: senseamp
Azerbajan makes a lot more sense seeing how it's next to Iran.
Of course this system was never directed at Iran, but at Russia. Putin is just testing to confirm if the US really means it when we tell him "Cold War is over"
The neocons are really keen on reigniting the Cold War, since the arms race was good for business.


Do you really believe that?

An ICBM shield to protect us from developed nations like Russia or China just seems foolish. Especially with the amount of missiles that Russia has. The system can be 90% effective and Russia could still wipe out most major cities in the US.

All of that is irrelevant though because no developed nation is going to fire a nuclear ICBM. There missiles and ours will pass each other in the air and both nations would be annihilated. Everyone loses BIG in a nuclear shootout. The only nuclear threat we should be worried about are ones that can be carried out in a clandestine manner.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: senseamp
Azerbajan makes a lot more sense seeing how it's next to Iran.
Of course this system was never directed at Iran, but at Russia. Putin is just testing to confirm if the US really means it when we tell him "Cold War is over"
The neocons are really keen on reigniting the Cold War, since the arms race was good for business.


Do you really believe that?

An ICBM shield to protect us from developed nations like Russia or China just seems foolish. Especially with the amount of missiles that Russia has. The system can be 90% effective and Russia could still wipe out most major cities in the US.

All of that is irrelevant though because no developed nation is going to fire a nuclear ICBM. There missiles and ours will pass each other in the air and both nations would be annihilated. Everyone loses BIG in a nuclear shootout. The only nuclear threat we should be worried about are ones that can be carried out in a clandestine manner.
Then why build a missile defense against a nonexistent threat. If we have a missile defense system, Iran can figure out a much simpler way to deliver a nuke, in a container or a truck, and have plausible deniability to boot. Missile defense is Cold War, pre 9/11 thinking. Bush was talking about missile defense in 2001 too, right before 9/11 made a complete mockery of it by turning oru planes into missiles.
It's about extending the frontiers of American power closer to Russia. Poland and Czech Republic weren't chosen by accident. Once you build radar, then you build bases around it to provide support, etc. If you wanted to shoot down Iranian rockets, you'd put those installations in Azerbaijan, Turkey, Iraq, where you can take them out after launch when it's easiest to shoot them down.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: LAsick
I find it amazing building a missile defense system in Europe when we cant even build a god damn fence between the U.S. and Mexico!

Yeah really, if Europe was that concern about Iran, you'd think they would build one themselves.

The Russians and Putin aren't dumb. This isn't about Iran. If less than a couple of dozens terrorists attacked 3 building and killed ~3500 people, imagine what would happen to Iran if they ever used a nuke on a European country... the entire nation would be turned to glass.

If the Iranian were going to nuke anybody, it would be Israel. They're not Muslims, they're Persians, so they don't have any holy land in Israel.

That's a good point about the fence though... how many hundreds of billions would a missile defense system to protect Europe cost? How quickly could a fence be built with that money? If the Soviets could build one in Germany so quickly and effectively, even after a devastating world war (i know there were several revisions over the years), how fast and good could the American industrial machine do it?
 
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