Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[FlameTail]

Why should you care about my happiness if you are wrong in the beginning?

If you don't believe what we said, then DON'T change your speculation...

If you do, at least shown some appreciation in our reply.

My apologies.

And I have been saying flagship phone SoC going to be used as WoA 64-bit ARM SoC. That's mean future 8G4 and 8G5 will be used as X G1 and X G2. That's mean they should use 2+6 CPU configuration. Thus your 4+4 config is incorrect. And I remember what you said:

So you don't believe Qualcomm will use 8G4 and 8G4 as X G1 and X G2. I will let you think first before saying anything...

The problem with repurposing a flagship smartphone chip for PCs, is that it comes with all the baggage of being a smartphone chip.

Look at how much area the modem and Spectra ISP take up in the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3. Combined, they are about 1/4th of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 SoC.

If the PC doesn't have 5G, then the modem is useless. And the huge Spectra ISP is useless because PCs only have simple 2 MP webcams, whereas phones have 50+ Megapixel multi-camera systems that can actually use that massive Spectra ISP.

The point I am making is that, by repurposing a Smartphone SoC for PCs, you are going to be wasting a ton of die area.

And the inverse is also true. A PC SoC needs multiple USB controllers, multiple display engines, PCIe lane controllers, etc...

That's why it would be more economical to make a dedicated die for the PC SoC, as I have done in the X2 Speculation Concept.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Would a Smartphone SoC even have the IO necessary for a PC?

Or are we talking using the same design as base but customizing it with some bits more suited for PC market?

 

[Doug S]

My apologies.

The problem with repurposing a flagship smartphone chip for PCs, is that it comes with all the baggage of being a smartphone chip.
View attachment 97031
Look at how much area the modem and Spectra ISP take up in the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3. Combined, they are about 1/4th of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 SoC.

If the PC doesn't have 5G, then the modem is useless. And the huge Spectra ISP is useless because PCs only have simple 2 MP webcams, whereas phones have 50+ Megapixel multi-camera systems that can actually use that massive Spectra ISP.

The point I am making is that, by repurposing a Smartphone SoC for PCs, you are going to be wasting a ton of die area.

And the inverse is also true. A PC SoC needs multiple USB controllers, multiple display engines, PCIe lane controllers, etc...

That's why it would be more economical to make a dedicated die for the PC SoC, as I have done in the X2 Speculation Concept.

Qualcomm is in the modem business. If there's anyone who cares about trying to push the PC market toward buyers wanting an integrated modem in their laptop, it is Qualcomm. Whether or not they do a different die for their laptops, I'd put my money on it including a 5G modem.

 

[FlameTail]

Qualcomm is in the modem business. If there's anyone who cares about trying to push the PC market toward buyers wanting an integrated modem in their laptop, it is Qualcomm. Whether or not they do a different die for their laptops, I'd put my money on it including a 5G modem.

SD X Elite doesn't have integrated modem, and no 8cx chip in the past has ever had it.

 

[FlameTail]

Like, a + 5-10% clocks from N4P to N3E? Yeah I could see 4.6-4.7GHz. But you get the idea here.

Sounds like a bad idea. That's creeping up to Intel/AMD territory in terms of clock speed.

Also remember from where they are, adding a “mere” +13% IPC and + 10% frequency would take their 2950 (about the best they can get on Windows or so) to 3,666. That’s fine. Doubt the M4 is going to run past that and even M5 may not be that far ahead if they’re still on N3 which they will be if they’re going

M4 will certainly be in the range of ~3600. M5 will exceed 4000.

On the X Gen 2, if it launches in Q1 2026 I think that’s not ideal given the delay we had with Gen 1 but it’s not the end of the world.

It’s also likely QC will have a significant IPC tweak for Pegasus. If they get 10-15%, and 10% off the node, and keep power the same or even reduce it with more cache and new phydes, that’s great.

But you have to realize they’re not going to do a fat core that reaches insane frequencies that require they bloat the design too much. They’ll take the gains they can from newer nodes on similar libraries and transistors without changing their uArch drastically.

Considering that X Elite G2 is rumoured to come in 2025Q4/2026Q1, it will most likely use the N3P node, which is what 8G5 with Pegasus core will also use.

8G2 : 2022Q4 : N4
8G3 : 2023Q4 : N4P
8G4 : 2024Q4 : N3E
8G5 : 2025Q4 : N3P


Power
N5 = 100 (baseline)
N4P = 78
N3E = 68
N3P = 68 × (100-10)% = 61.2

If you do the math, going from N4P -> N3P, you get a solid 21% reduction in power.

IMHO what Oryon engineers should do is to create a Pegasus core with +50% IPC over Phoenix. They can offset the power consumption increase by harvesting the full 21% power reduction provided by N4P->N3P, and by reducing the clock speed to below 4.0 GHz

Increasing performance by increasing the frequency sounds anti-thetical to a philosophy of CPU design that prioritizes efficiency. The only reason that Apple has been increasing their clock speeds is because in recent years, their IPC gains have slowed down, so they had no choice but to increase frequency to extract performance.

Similarly, the reason why Phoenix in X Elite pushed to 4.3 GHz is because Qualcomm needed it to compete with M3.

As you can see from this graph, reducing the clock speed by 10% will net a ~20% power reduction.

So, thanks to;
• N3P's 21% power reduction
• 20% reduction by 10% clock regression
• uArch efficiency gains

I'd say a Pegasus core in X Elite G2 with +50% IPC @ 4.0 GHz, can deliver +35% performance at iso power (vs Phoenix in X Elite).

A +35% perfoemance gain means it's GB6 ST would exceed 4000, which might be sufficient to be competitive with Apple M5.

 

[NTMBK]

Qualcomm is in the modem business. If there's anyone who cares about trying to push the PC market toward buyers wanting an integrated modem in their laptop, it is Qualcomm. Whether or not they do a different die for their laptops, I'd put my money on it including a 5G modem.

Nobody wants to pay $30 a month for 5G on their laptop.

 

[Tup3x]

Nobody wants to pay $30 a month for 5G on their laptop.

I don't see much point in 4G/5G modems on laptop. I'd just use my phone as hotspot.

 

[FlameTail]

I don't see much point in 4G/5G modems on laptop. I'd just use my phone as hotspot.

That will cook the phone's battery.

Using your phone to hotspot occasionally is fine, but using it regularly and heavily (which you would, when doing work on a laptop), would significantly wear down the phone's battery.

 

[coercitiv]

That will cook the phone's battery.

If you think that using the modem, 1-2 little cores and the wi-fi or USB interface will cook you phones battery, then sit down because what I'm about to tell you will shock you to the core: people use their phones for many hours daily with their screen on, some of them drain their batteries playing videos, games, browsing, or even using them for navigation in their cars. You would think they all keep their phones in their pockets and only use them for calls and the occasional daily Geekbench cold run, but NO, they have this weird impression that phones are personal computing devices meant for continuous usage.

I tried to tell some that unlike laptops, phones have batteries with limited lifetime, but they just would not listen.

 

[poke01]

Let’s wait and see. That all I am going to say.

 

[Tup3x]

That will cook the phone's battery.

Using your phone to hotspot occasionally is fine, but using it regularly and heavily (which you would, when doing work on a laptop), would significantly wear down the phone's battery.

Downloading random garbage 8h straight while on the go is not exactly s common use case. Sharing internet for some office work on the go is nothing. You do not need built in modem for that.

Some indestructible rugged monsters are a different story. But anyway, the point is that for 99% of people integrated modem in a laptop is just completely useless feature.

 

[Doug S]

Nobody wants to pay $30 a month for 5G on their laptop.

I think adding cellular to laptops is stupid, but this is Qualcomm we're talking about. That's how they make all their money, so of course they will want to try to normalize cellular on PCs. They believe everything should be 5G enabled, even your cat's collar!

 

[FlameTail]

I think adding cellular to laptops is stupid, but this is Qualcomm we're talking about. That's how they make all their money, so of course they will want to try to normalize cellular on PCs. They believe everything should be 5G enabled, even your cat's collar!

Always Connected PC! [ACPC].

Have you guys forgotten that before the AI PC hype train began, Qualcomm was pushing the AC PC concept with their 8cx chips?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Always Connected PC! [ACPC].

Have you guys forgotten that before the AI PC hype train began, Qualcomm was pushing the AC PC concept with their 8cx chips?

Pretty much every first gen WARM laptop was sold as part of some cellular data subscription, if I remember correctly.

 

[SpudLobby]

Sounds like a bad idea. That's creeping up to Intel/AMD territory in terms of clock speed.

M4 will certainly be in the range of ~3600. M5 will exceed 4000.

By recent trends, they’ll be creeping up into Intel/AMD clocks if they want to do it unless you think a 10-12% IPC gain is coming.

Considering that X Elite G2 is rumoured to come in 2025Q4/2026Q1, it will most likely use the N3P node, which is what 8G5 with Pegasus core will also use.

8G2 : 2022Q4 : N4
8G3 : 2023Q4 : N4P
8G4 : 2024Q4 : N3E
8G5 : 2025Q4 : N3P

View attachment 97057View attachment 97059
Power
N5 = 100 (baseline)
N4P = 78
N3E = 68
N3P = 68 × (100-10)% = 61.2

If you do the math, going from N4P -> N3P, you get a solid 21% reduction in power.

IMHO what Oryon engineers should do is to create a Pegasus core with +50% IPC over Phoenix. They can offset the power consumption increase by harvesting the full 21% power reduction provided by N4P->N3P, and by reducing the clock speed to below 4.0 GHz

Increasing performance by increasing the frequency sounds anti-thetical to a philosophy of CPU design that prioritizes efficiency. The only reason that Apple has been increasing their clock speeds is because in recent years, their IPC gains have slowed down, so they had no choice but to increase frequency to extract performance.

Similarly, the reason why Phoenix in X Elite pushed to 4.3 GHz is because Qualcomm needed it to compete with M3.
View attachment 97062
As you can see from this graph, reducing the clock speed by 10% will net a ~20% power reduction.

So, thanks to;
• N3P's 21% power reduction
• 20% reduction by 10% clock regression
• uArch efficiency gains

I'd say a Pegasus core in X Elite G2 with +50% IPC @ 4.0 GHz, can deliver +35% performance at iso power (vs Phoenix in X Elite).

A +35% perfoemance gain means it's GB6 ST would exceed 4000, which might be sufficient to be competitive with Apple M5.

 

[NTMBK]

I think adding cellular to laptops is stupid, but this is Qualcomm we're talking about. That's how they make all their money, so of course they will want to try to normalize cellular on PCs. They believe everything should be 5G enabled, even your cat's collar!

How's that worked out for Qualcomm in the last 8 or so years...?

 

[Doug S]

How's that worked out for Qualcomm in the last 8 or so years...?

They are like Intel, Intel saw x86 as the solution for everything and pushed it despite the market not wanting it for mobile or embedded. Qualcomm sees cellular as the solution for everything, and they will keep pushing it regardless of whether the market wants it or not.

 

[SpudLobby]

They are like Intel, Intel saw x86 as the solution for everything and pushed it despite the market not wanting it for mobile or embedded. Qualcomm sees cellular as the solution for everything, and they will keep pushing it regardless of whether the market wants it or not.

They are not really pushing AIPC like they did before. The modem isn’t even on the die and is barely mentioned in their pressers. It’s all about performance, battery life and AI.

I think they got the memo, though they’ll obviously still have the option. This is a silly wordcel analogy.

 

[poke01]

They are not really pushing AIPC like they did before. The modem isn’t even on the die and is barely mentioned in their pressers. It’s all about performance, battery life and AI.

I think they got the memo, though they’ll obviously still have the option. This is a silly wordcel analogy.

True, just like how Samsung offers a Tab s9 with wifi and 5G models. I would expect the same for X Elite laptops.

 

[SpudLobby]

True, just like how Samsung offers a Tab s9 with wifi and 5G models. I would expect the same for X Elite laptops.

I don’t think it will be true of every laptop or even most this time. But some yeah

 

[poke01]

I don’t think it will be true of every laptop or even most this time. But some yeah

Most will be wifi only. Surface tablets offer wifi or 5g

 

[Thibsie]

They are like Intel, Intel saw x86 as the solution for everything and pushed it despite the market not wanting it for mobile or embedded. Qualcomm sees cellular as the solution for everything, and they will keep pushing it regardless of whether the market wants it or not.

Or rather, a solution for pocketing the licensing fees.

 

[Thibsie]

In Belgium at least, having a second SIM card tied to the same mobile plan often costs 10€ (easily, sometimes more) per month.
If my laptop has a modem, cool. But more than the modem costs, the monthly fees are big no-no.

In those conditions, sharing the phone data is hell of a lot simpler.

 

[coercitiv]

In Belgium at least, having a second SIM card tied to the same mobile plan often costs 10€ (easily, sometimes more) per month.
If my laptop has a modem, cool. But more than the modem costs, the monthly fees are big no-no.

Family and friends use cheap mobile plans or prepaids to have Internet access in rural areas. The devices they use are very small & portable 4G wireless routers, some of which have internal batteries. I myself have one at home, though mine is not battery powered, it's purpose is to be a backup internet connection for the entire house.

These things are cheap and they scale to multiple users. Between them and phone hotspots, the average consumer has little need for integrated modems. The only people who really benefit from the integration would be professionals working on the field and maybe those who travel a lot. Both of them are niche.

 

[FlameTail]

5G modems are great for business laptops