Quality digital sound (PC)

[xenolith]

I think I understand this.

We need to have native digital decoder speakers, i.e., like the Logitech Z-5450 to get true Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 sound, with any sound card that has digital out (i.e., X-Fi or Envy24HT solution). Correct?

Or, we need to have a sound card that has native hardware support for Dolby Digital Live and DTS Connect, like the Auzentech X-Mystique or X-Plosion (or the old NF2 Soundstorm) to get true 5.1 digital sound with any 5.1 digital speaker system that has a digital input (i.e., the Logitech Z-5300e). Correct?

If I have it right, does anybody know which would be the better quality setup? Or, would they both be of equal quality?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

What's your goal here?

z-5300 doesn't have a digital input. Getting a DDL / DTS card with those speakers would be pointless for what I think you're trying to do.

Are you doing gaming?

There's no real advantage to a digital connection to your speakers vs analog except the number of cables.
What's your total budget for sound? Getting digital this or digital that isn't really the way to pick out the best option. It's all analog in the end, so where digital gets converted to analog is all you're changing with all these options. Best speakers you can afford is going to make the most difference in your sound quality vs where DD / DTS gets converted to analog.

 

[xenolith]

Ah, I could've swore the Z-5300e was digital ready, forget these speakers then. I must of somehow confused them with the Cyber Acoutics A-5640rb that I was looking at too. They're digital ready right?

Ultimately my goal is MP3/CD music and DVD movie playback. Good surround sound gaming would be a plus, but it's not the priority.

I'm weakest in audio knowledge, I guess I'm a noob of sorts and I'm trying my best to figure this out. I thought using only digital i/o devises would bypass any analog conversion, I guess not.

This was what I was thinking in my setup:

sound card: Chaintech AV-710 (~$25)
speakers: Logitech Z-5500 (~250)

or

sound card: Auzentech X-Mystique (~$65)
speakers: any good 5.1 digital ready speakers ($80-$150)

The later would be good because of the cost savings.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I'm not really familiar with those Cyber Acoustics speakers, but I don't see anything about them having a digital coaxial or digital optical input. If they really have a digital input, they're being incredibly vague about it, and if I had to place a bet, I would say they don't actually have a digital input.

There's always going to be an analog conversion before the sound gets to your ears. All speakers are analog, even "digital speakers". If you get a set with a digital input (like Logitech z-5500 / z-5450 / z-680, Klipsch GMX-D, etc.), then all you're doing is instead of your soundcard doing the conversion, it's the little control pod attached to the speakers that do the conversion.

A good quality soundcard is going to do a better job than the control pods these speaker systems have. You're not really gaining anything quality wise having your speakers do the decoding and conversion vs a good soundcard.

All these "digital speakers" pretty much do the same thing. "Digital ready" speakers can pretty much all decode DD (and some DTS) streams and give you 5.1
If you get a set of 5.1 speakers with a digital input, the only way you're going to get them to all play is if they can decode a DD / DTS stream or if they try to fake it with some sort of surround mode (like dolby prologic II for example).


If you're doing MP3 / CD / DVD sources, you don't need a card that can encode DD / DTS, you just need a card that can decode it. Pretty much every card and integrated solution can do this.
MP3 / CD can be sent to your speakers through analog stereo or a PCM digital signal. A decent soundcard will probably get you better results with its analog output than sending digital to one of these "digital speaker" sets and having it do the conversion.
For DVD, you can have your soundcard output the analog 5.1 signal already decoded or you can send the DD / DTS stream digitally and then have a control pod do the same thing your soundcard would have done.

The end product of sending digital out is pretty much just having your speakers do what your soundcard would have done already. A digital speaker set will probably do a better job than your average integrated solution, but if you're planning on buying a decent soundcard then you're probably better off using its analog output.

If your motherboard has digital output, then this might be a good idea. Digital output from your motherboard should in theory be as good as the digital output from any other card for PCM signals and DD / DTS passthrough. If you want to use your integrated digital sound, then getting a set of speakers with digital inputs makes sense.

The only time you'd run into trouble with this is if you wanted to do games in surround sound. This is when you'd want a card like the X-Mystique. The only time you need a card that can encode DD / DTS is when you're playing a game. These cards will take what would have been an analog EAX 2.0 output and encode it into DD / DTS to be decoded. The sound gets compressed a bit like any DD / DTS stream in the process. You would probably get better results running analog output from a creative card for gaming.
I think the only reason to really buy one of these DDL / DTS encoding cards is when you want to hook up to a receiver / pre-pro and don't want to hook up a 5.1 analog connection due to a variety of reasons. For a situation where you're going to be using computer speakers I think you'd be in better shape if you just stuck with analog. I think this whole "digital speakers" thing is a great example of "digital" not always being better.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to you or if I even did a decent job writing it. I just got back from a week vacation and I'm a bit out of it.

I think some good options for you to consider might be

integrated digital + Logitech z-5500s
midrange analog card (A2 / whatever) + analog input speakers of your choice that you can afford


EDIT: and don't get the Logitech 5450s. They're basically like the z-5300s at triple the price and you get a few "features" that I consider to be pretty worthless. If you're getting a logitech set, get the 5300s or the 5500s.

 

[xenolith]

Wow, a lot to digest there.

So in my specific case, your basically saying DD/DTS is hype [when compared to a good sound chip, like the Envy24HT (my plug )] and I'd be just as well off going all analog with a good sound card and speakers.

It's funny, because that's what I was looking at doing first, but was put off after reading about poor quality DACs when comparing certain cards.

This was my original choice:

sound card: M-Audio Revolution 5.1 ($72 - lowest priced Envy24HT card I could find with good DACs)
speakers: Logitech Z-5300e 5.1 (~$120)

This will cover my priority (music/DVD playback), it's just the gaming aspect that will suffer a little because of no 3D sound/surround sound support. Oh well. I'm not going X-Fi because IMO it's overpriced, poorly supported, has bloated drivers, and the music quality is comparatively poor despite purported good DACs.

Thanks for your input, YOyo.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

My only Envy based card was the Chaintech and I just used it for its digital out to my old receivers. I tried the one good DAC on it for headphones occationally and it worked for me. It does suffer from lower quality DACs on the other channels like the other more affordable Envy cards.

There have been some pretty good X-Fi deals in the past if price is your main concern. I haven't tried one yet but there are certainly many people around here who have. I've read good things as well as bad as I'm sure you have as well.

I know you could do worse for a gaming card than M-audio's cards. Creative pretty much has a monopoly on all the gaming oriented features, so it's pretty hard to find a good gaming alternative.

EDIT: I would say you could consider some on the newer bluegears/AuzenTech products for analog output as well, but I'm not too confident with their driver support yet.

 

[fire400]

x-fi with just about any speaker setup with a +2.1-7.1 w/subwoofer in my eyes and ears will blow anything away

flawless if you connect it to a receiver, it's over...

I put the x-fi on a receiver with sony xplode subs and it was goodness from there on

 

[xenolith]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
There have been some pretty good X-Fi deals in the past if price is your main concern. I haven't tried one yet but there are certainly many people around here who have. I've read good things as well as bad as I'm sure you have as well.

My major concern with X-Fi is music quality. I've read many places the M-Audio Revolution/Audiophile 192 is much superior.

I would say you could consider some on the newer bluegears/AuzenTech products for analog output as well, but I'm not too confident with their driver support yet.

I am considering the Auzentech X-plosion. Maybe hookup both analog for music/movies, and digital for games?

Look what I found for speakers; Klipsch Promedia GMX 5.1 Digital Surround Speakers for $165 shipped

EDIT: No wait, the X-plosion uses C-Media for analog... forget that...

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Most of the negative stuff I've seen about music playback has been regarding the crystalizer (or however they spelled it) feature. I honestly haven't been keeping up on more current complaints, but most of what I have seen has been very positive for the X-Fi's music playback when you just use it straight.

If there is a difference, I would doubt it would be a major one unless something has come up since the first few batches of X-Fi cards went out.

I think overall you're looking at much smaller differences in how your music is going to sound with your soundcard choice vs the difference your speaker choice is going to make.

I think the GMX set had some quality control issues initially if I remember correctly. I'm not sure if those got cleared up. Overall the GMX set wasn't very popular, I think mainly due to connectivity limitations. If you want to game on the GMX set, you're pretty stuck with getting a DDL card.

 

[sandeep108]

My major concern with X-Fi is music quality. I've read many places the M-Audio Revolution/Audiophile 192 is much superior.

Believe me, from mp3 there would be nothing you could hear which would make any difference between x-fi or M-Audio Revolution or on board sound with medium / high end computer speakers. Just go by what Soundman says - he has given you excellent advice.

I am considering the Auzentech X-plosion. Maybe hookup both analog for music/movies, and digital for games?

Actually it may be the other way around, digital for games may not give you surround.

I currently have an A/V receiver hooked up to high quality bookshelfs (space is a contraint) and sub and connected via analog from my Audigy2ZS. I tried digital also (to the receiver) and frankly could not make out much of difference. Anybody who hears the setup is blown away by the sound quality - whether music, games or dvd. And my 'digital' Altec Lansings 4.1 sound like boomy mud after this.

So if sound quality is important to you considering your budget, you should spend maximum for the speakers (always try and hear them before buying) and if required use on-board sound. The klipsch are usually recommended for music, due to mid-range and logitech for games, due to loud/boomy bass.

 

[xenolith]

I guess we all carry a certain level of bias based on past experience. I mean I used to have an Nvidia Soundstorm MCP on-board chip when I had an NF2 motherboard. I used it with the same digital Altec Lansing 4.1 speaker system you described sanddeep108, and I thought it sounded awesome, especially in games. I'm still using a different s/pdif on-board with those speakers now, lol.

So, I'll take your guys word for it, and I will strongly consider the X-Fi.

I may end up getting the Logitech Z-5500 speakers only because it has a digital interface. I'm stubborn. I'm not giving up on digital sound just yet, you never know what might be released down the road.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: xenolith
I guess we all carry a certain level of bias based on past experience. I mean I used to have an Nvidia Soundstorm MCP on-board chip when I had an NF2 motherboard. I used it with the same digital Altec Lansing 4.1 speaker system you described sanddeep108, and I thought it sounded awesome, especially in games. I'm still using a different s/pdif on-board with those speakers now, lol.

So, I'll take your guys word for it, and I will strongly consider the X-Fi.

I may end up getting the Logitech Z-5500 speakers only because it has a digital interface. I'm stubborn. I'm not giving up on digital sound just yet, you never know what might be released down the road.

The digital inteface would be a bad way to go if you are using an X-fi. If you really want to use the digital inteface then look into the X-Plosion

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: xenolith
I guess we all carry a certain level of bias based on past experience. I mean I used to have an Nvidia Soundstorm MCP on-board chip when I had an NF2 motherboard. I used it with the same digital Altec Lansing 4.1 speaker system you described sanddeep108, and I thought it sounded awesome, especially in games. I'm still using a different s/pdif on-board with those speakers now, lol.

So, I'll take your guys word for it, and I will strongly consider the X-Fi.

I may end up getting the Logitech Z-5500 speakers only because it has a digital interface. I'm stubborn. I'm not giving up on digital sound just yet, you never know what might be released down the road.

The digital inteface would be a bad way to go if you are using an X-fi. If you really want to use the digital inteface then look into the X-Plosion

Right. If you're going to use digital, the X-Fi isn't really going to do anything useful the Chaintech AV-710 can't do. The X-Plosion would be the closest you're going to get to improving on the soundstorm experience you had.

 

[xenolith]

Don't worry guys... I'm definitely planing on using the analog i/o... I just meant I'm choosing speakers with digital i/o for a sort of future proofing... in case if digital ever may have any advantages in future audio developments.

 

[sandeep108]

Originally posted by: xenolith
Don't worry guys... I'm definitely planing on using the analog i/o... I just meant I'm choosing speakers with digital i/o for a sort of future proofing... in case if digital ever may have any advantages in future audio developments.

I do not think you are getting what we are trying to explain here. Getting 'digital' speakers for future proofing is absurd. The DAC in the speakers is not going to be better than what you may get in tomorrows sound cards/chips.

If you are going to buy x-fi and digital speakers, you are loosing the benefit of a good x-fi DAC and using the speaker's poor DAC and you are spending more money for no benefit. That is why Soundman and myself are suggesting you spend more on better analogue speakers and then get x-fi or better card. Or if you are keen on 'digital' speakers, then if your onboard sound has SPDIF, then there is no need at all to spend on a sound card and spend that money on better digital speakers.

There is no bias as such. The Altec Lansings sounded their price and I knew it. I had my Onkyo compnent system to compare with, and that time I could not afford a decent audio system for my PC.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Yeah, it's kind of like the quality of your conversion in your control pod is your bottleneck. There might be something that comes along that would give you a better digital signal to start with, but you're still going to bottleneck your quality when the signal gets to your control pod.

If you did analog with the Logitechs, then the set is just amplifying the good quality signal it gets. Any advances in soundcard features are going to come through in your speakers that way.

The only reason I'm using digital right now is because I have something decent between my digital output and my amp.

It's not going to hurt to have the digital inputs as long as you have the analog inputs as well though. It's just that there are alternatives that you might like better that don't have these digital inputs. Klipsch Promedias are right around the $300 mark for example.

 

[xenolith]

Originally posted by: sandeep108
There is no bias as such. The Altec Lansings sounded their price and I knew it. I had my Onkyo compnent system to compare with, and that time I could not afford a decent audio system for my PC.

I was referring to my bias, in how I liked the Soundstorm's DDL performance with the same speakers you had.

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Yeah, it's kind of like the quality of your conversion in your control pod is your bottleneck. There might be something that comes along that would give you a better digital signal to start with, but you're still going to bottleneck your quality when the signal gets to your control pod.

If you did analog with the Logitechs, then the set is just amplifying the good quality signal it gets. Any advances in soundcard features are going to come through in your speakers that way.

The only reason I'm using digital right now is because I have something decent between my digital output and my amp.

It's not going to hurt to have the digital inputs as long as you have the analog inputs as well though. It's just that there are alternatives that you might like better that don't have these digital inputs. Klipsch Promedias are right around the $300 mark for example.

Your right... I keep forgetting about the "there's always going to be an analog conversion before the sound gets to your ears" part. Duh.

The Logitech Z-5500 is only $258 shipped at Amazon right now. So unless the Z-5500 are inferior to the Klipsch Promedia, it still looks like a good deal to me whether it has digital in's or not.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: xenolith

Originally posted by: sandeep108
There is no bias as such. The Altec Lansings sounded their price and I knew it. I had my Onkyo compnent system to compare with, and that time I could not afford a decent audio system for my PC.

I was referring to my bias, in how I liked the Soundstorm's DDL performance with the same speakers you had.

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Yeah, it's kind of like the quality of your conversion in your control pod is your bottleneck. There might be something that comes along that would give you a better digital signal to start with, but you're still going to bottleneck your quality when the signal gets to your control pod.

If you did analog with the Logitechs, then the set is just amplifying the good quality signal it gets. Any advances in soundcard features are going to come through in your speakers that way.

The only reason I'm using digital right now is because I have something decent between my digital output and my amp.

It's not going to hurt to have the digital inputs as long as you have the analog inputs as well though. It's just that there are alternatives that you might like better that don't have these digital inputs. Klipsch Promedias are right around the $300 mark for example.

Your right... I keep forgetting about the "there's always going to be an analog conversion before the sound gets to your ears" part. Duh.

The Logitech Z-5500 is only $258 shipped at Amazon right now. So unless the Z-5500 are inferior to the Klipsch Promedia, it still looks like a good deal to me whether it has digital in's or not.

Some like the logitechs better than the promedias, and I think you'd be probably be very happy with either set, but the promedias seem to be the superior set for sound quality.

 

[imported_Imp]

I'm on the verge of getting Z-5500s, and in my research, Promedias may be a bit more(?) prone to dying. That and if you're in Canada, they are outrageously overpriced $500 at the cheapest. So if you break away from Logitech and consider the Promedias, do a bit of research on the quality. Anyways, good luck with your new sound.