Question on Electrical Wiring

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Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,438
344
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Where I am, it is common to use a White lead as a switched (output from switch) return of Hot to the light fixture. Really, it IS supposed to be identified as NOT a Neutral line at that switch, but many don't. (Black tape is much preferred for that than paint, since some paint can damage the insulation.) And it is the BLACK traveling from the power source to the switch box that MUST be used for the Hot supply.

My house had Knob-and-Tube (60 Amp service) wiring in it when we moved in over 45 years ago, and I replaced it all. So I have experience with it. There were no multi-wire cables. In this house, each single wire was encased in a black semi-flexible material like an old rubber, and then wrapped outside by a woven fiber sheath impregnated with something like a tar. Thus all those wires were black, no matter what their function. ALL those wires were copper, because that wiring system was used before Aluminum ever came into use for electrical wiring. However, I recall one possible reason for confusion. Most of those wires appeared silvery on the surface at first glance because they apparently had been "tinned". They were NOT aluminum, though.

There were no Ground leads from the fuse panel out to branch circuits. For each circuit a pair of black wires was run out from separate entry holes in the fuse box to use points. Along the sides of wood joists they were supported about every 3 to 5 feet by a ceramic tower or "Knob" about 2" tall that was nailed into the joist - one wire per knob. Often the two wires for a circuit were positioned on facing surfaces of joists in the same bay space between joists. Where a wire had to be run across joists or through a wall of floor plate, a hole was drilled in the wood and then a ceramic Tube installed in it, and the single wire run through that. Thus the term Knob and Tube. For a circuit with several use points (e.g., device boxes for outlets) the pair of wires was run like a power bus. At each use point a pair of shorter wires was spliced onto the pair of main lines (splices covered by friction tape) and run into the device box. Of course, all outlets were non-polarized 2-slot ones - no Ground, and no differentiation of slot sizes to differentiate Hot and Neutral.

The power leads to the electric stove in the house were suitable for 60 Amp load as most stoves now are rated. But they did not come from their own fuses; they were simply fed from the Hot and Neutral buses on the fuse box, and relied on the main service fuses (60 Amp) to protect the stove lines.

In this house, the early installers has actually installed fuses in BOTH the Hot and Neutral lines on each circuit. Nobody would do that today. I doubt it was supposed to be done that way when the wiring first was installed here, and that "normal" Knob-and-Tube systems did not do that, but I do not know for sure. However, such a system MIGHT have been used before we all started using the Grounded Neutral system in current use throughout much of the western world.
 

Micrornd

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,338
220
106
It's supposed to be marked. Though you and I both know that half the time the electrician forgets, or uses that cheap Chinese tape that turns to parchment in a year.
Wow, forgets, really?
No inspections??
I would have thought Cali was stricter, what with all their other, shall we say, idiosyncrasies.

It doesn't get forgotten here, all switch and receptacle plates have to be removed for "final" and each switch and receptacle are checked visually (for wire color on switches and receptacles and grounding on switches), and function (on switches), as well as proper electrical testing of receptacles (plug in tester w/GFI and AFI testing).
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,708
6,140
136
Wow, forgets, really?
No inspections??
I would have thought Cali was stricter, what with all their other, shall we say, idiosyncrasies.

It doesn't get forgotten here, all switch and receptacle plates have to be removed for "final" and each switch and receptacle are checked visually (for wire color on switches and receptacles and grounding on switches), and function (on switches), as well as proper electrical testing of receptacles (plug in tester w/GFI and AFI testing).
They don't go into that sort of detail on electrical inspections here. Plugs get tested randomly, that's about it. Structural is what it's all about where I live. I just had to have a structural engineer verify pier depth on a project. The city won't allow the inspector to measure the depth of a hole in the ground. The engineer will also inspect the steel in the foundation, and I'll have to have a testing lab on site to take samples of the concrete and measure it's strength. The city inspector will also have to come out and look at everything as well, for reasons that no one understands. The engineer will also look at the framing and count nails (as will the city inspector). He'll also verify that we used the right sized nails for each different application (the heads are color coded). It gets complicated, and expensive. The engineer bills out at $200 an hour.
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
1,550
97
91
It's supposed to be marked. Though you and I both know that half the time the electrician forgets, or uses that cheap Chinese tape that turns to parchment in a year.
It's been a while since I did much electrical stateside (though I think that's about to change), but up here in the great white north the identification is only necessary at the fixture. That's why we ALWAYS send constant power down the white, then back up on the black. As the white wire in the light JB will be wirenutted with 1 or more other blacks, it's considered identified, the black wire coming back is already the right color. At the switch side there's no need for identification because the switch has no polarity, and it doesn't matter which one is hot (just assume they both are). @Micrornd We never 'switch the neutral', as that is against code and dangerous to boot.
 

Micrornd

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,338
220
106
As the white wire in the light JB will be wirenutted with 1 or more other blacks, it's considered identified, the black wire coming back is already the right color. At the switch side there's no need for identification because the switch has no polarity, and it doesn't matter which one is hot (just assume they both are). @Micrornd We never 'switch the neutral', as that is against code and dangerous to boot.
See, that wouldn't pass here, that white would have to be taped black (or be a black) otherwise it would be assumed a neutral.
Here white "isn't a color" and is only allowed for actual neutrals.
Oh, and our "romex" is color-coded for size (apparently our inspectors have poor eyesight and can't read like they used to)
BTW - trivia - switching the neutral was allowed in Iceland last time I was there
They don't go into that sort of detail on electrical inspections here. Plugs get tested randomly, that's about it. Structural is what it's all about where I live.
Yeah, our main structural emphasis is wind related and ground compaction.
I just had to have a structural engineer verify pier depth on a project. The engineer will also inspect the steel in the foundation, and I'll have to have a testing lab on site to take samples of the concrete and measure it's strength.
Same here for commercial projects, but not residential, that's all handled by city or county inspectors. Engineers only get involved in residential on the "paper" end.
For State projects, state has 2/3 contracted, 1/3 state employed and they inspect that way/ratio (with 4 days prior notice ). And the state employed inspectors don't trust the contracted ones, so they re-inspect all the inspections done by the contracted (if they still can) and call it "random quality control"
The city inspector will also have to come out and look at everything as well, for reasons that no one understands. The engineer will also look at the framing and count nails (as will the city inspector). He'll also verify that we used the right sized nails for each different application (the heads are color coded). It gets complicated, and expensive.
Same, but engineer coming out is determined by client's contract, not a requirement, also our hand installed nails have the size embossed on the head.
Do your inspectors have the mirrors on extension sticks and monoculars, so they don't have to climb ladders or scaffolds?
The engineer bills out at $200 an hour.
That's included in the client's side project billing, here the contractor is only billed if it's a re-inspection for a failure.

And of course, sadly, we still don't have a completely unified code system, so you have to remember/know where you are and what peculiarities that bring to the party.

I wish the OP would come back and tell us more about the "2 blacks" or maybe post a pic.
 
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