Question on Electrical Wiring

[Homerboy]

Excuse my complete stupidity and ignorance on the matter, but I have a question about replacing a light switch...

I have a light switch - 2 wires (though both were black when I looked?) + ground - inside a closet that I would like to replace with a combo outlet (1 outlet and 1 switch) Is that possible with no additional wiring? Just replace the existing light switch with something like this http://a.co/77U5Lhn ???

Thanks

 

[dullard]

To switch something on/off you only have to place a switch on a single wire (either the live or the neutral). Switching the live wire on/off is safer, but technically switching either wire will create the desired function. Switching both wires is best practice but often is not done. Assuming your wire colors are proper, then that switch is acting on the black live wire.

The outlet, on the other hand needs both the live and the neutral. Without both wires, the outlet will not function properly and/or will not meet electrical code. You'll need to run another wire to the switch to do what you want. That is probably quite easy to do, but will likely involve cutting into a wall or ceiling unless you have access such as from a basement or attic.

 

[Homerboy]

To switch something on/off you only have to place a switch on a single wire (either the live or the neutral). Switching the live wire on/off is safer, but technically switching either wire will create the desired function. Switching both wires is best practice but often is not done. Assuming your wire colors are proper, then that switch is acting on the black live wire.

The outlet, on the other hand needs both the live and the neutral. Without both wires, the outlet will not function properly and/or will not meet electrical code. You'll need to run another wire to the switch to do what you want. That is probably quite easy to do, but will likely involve cutting into a wall or ceiling unless you have access such as from a basement or attic.

Thanks - yeah, I don't want to get into it that deep. Dammit.

@dullard I'm trying to get an outlet into a closet so that a duster buster can hang on the wall in there and charge. Right now, there is a light switch inside the closet that turns on an overhead light (12" fluorescent) Any suggestions at all? Maybe replacing the fixture with one that has an outlet in it? I'm trying to be as least invasive as possible here.

 

[Thebobo]

Can you use one of these?

or this

Or this

 

[Homerboy]

Can you use one of these?

I thought of one these actually. Wouldn't be the best aesthetically I guess, but it would technically work.
What's stupid is the existing light has a pull chain on it, so the use of the light-switch is redundant. Half the family uses the switch. The other use the pull chain so it's always messed up.

 

[dullard]

I'm trying to get an outlet into a closet so that a duster buster can hang on the wall in there and charge. Right now, there is a light switch inside the closet that turns on an overhead light (12" fluorescent) Any suggestions at all? Maybe replacing the fixture with one that has an outlet in it? I'm trying to be as least invasive as possible here.

Maybe change your goal. What about a vacuum with an easily removable battery?
https://www.amazon.com/Hoover-Cordless-Lithium-Bagless-BH52160PC/dp/B00SWCU22O

Then have this charger handy:

https://media.hoover.com/i/ttifloorcare/BH52160PC_BATTERY?$large$

 

[Homerboy]

Maybe change your goal. What about a vacuum with an easily removable battery?
https://www.amazon.com/Hoover-Cordless-Lithium-Bagless-BH52160PC/dp/B00SWCU22O

Then have this charger handy:

https://media.hoover.com/i/ttifloorcare/BH52160PC_BATTERY?$large$

Too late. Vacuum is already a few months old

 

[Greenman]

Excuse my complete stupidity and ignorance on the matter, but I have a question about replacing a light switch...

I have a light switch - 2 wires (though both were black when I looked?) + ground - inside a closet that I would like to replace with a combo outlet (1 outlet and 1 switch) Is that possible with no additional wiring? Just replace the existing light switch with something like this http://a.co/77U5Lhn ???

Thanks

Are you sure there isn't a white wire stuffed into the back of the box?

 

[Homerboy]

Are you sure there isn't a white wire stuffed into the back of the box?

Positive - there's 2 blacks and a ground.
Unless the white is hiding back in the romex itself.

 

[Paperdoc]

OK, the two Blacks with no White in the switch box is really odd. But forget that. The point is that the new outlet you want to mount MUST have both Black (Hot) and White (Neutral) as well as bare Ground, and you need to find them. Where? Well VERY likely in the fluorescent light fixture. Or, more precisely, in an octagon box it should be wired into. At that point, based on your description, there is a feed of Black, White and Bare coming from the beaker box. Then there are splices so that the canopy switch (pull chain) in the fixture is wired to feed power to the fixture's ballast coil, AND there are connections to send power from the Black Hot source out to the wall switch, PLUS a return from that switch that also feeds to the ballast somehow. I agree that's a messy system and redundant.

One important wish you have is to NOT need to install a new box for this new outlet. You really would prefer to do that in the existing box with the wall switch, using the combo device you linked to. That MIGHT be possible if you have some way to install a new wire cable from the light fixture to the switch box. Your posts so far suggest that might not be easy. Then MAYBE there's another way, but we need more info. You used the term "romex" to describe the cable entering the switch box. By that, do you mean that the cable between the switch box and the light fixture is one of those spiral steel shells with loose wires threaded through it? Or, is is a common plastic-coated cable with all three wires tightly sealed into the outer flexible plastic sheath? For that matter, how many such cables are there between those two boxes - only one with 2 Blacks and one Bare in it, or two cables with only one Black and one Bare in each?

Where I'm going with this is that, IF there is one (or two) flexible steel shells carrying loose wires through it, you MAY be able to disconnect those (with all power OFF, of course!) and use them to pull a new set of wires though that shell. You could convert that cable to a "14/3" system: one each of Black, White, Red and Bare. Or, IF there are two such shells but no apparent White in either, you might be able to pull sets of Black / White / Bare through EACH of them to establish a White (Neutral) line to use. If you could do that, then Black brings to the switch boxes the Hot feed from the fixture's source from the breaker panel, White brings the companion Neutral, Bare brings the companion Ground, and Red takes the Hot output from the switch back up to the fixture to control the lamp.

If you can do that, I will also recommend removing the pull switch in the lamp fixture from the circuit and adjusting the wiring connections there so that only the wall switch controls power to that lamp.

If this idea cannot work, the alternative probably is to install an additional mounting box in the wall or ceiling - someplace handy and easy to feed a cable to - then feed it power from the source cable in the light fixture box and mount a standard duplex outlet in the new box.

 

[Thebobo]

Its a closet who cares what it looks like?

 

[NetWareHead]

Is it a finished closet with drywall? Or do you have access to the wiring where it runs to the switch junction box. Id be interested in knowing what kind of wiring is supplying the switch.

Im also confused by the lack of neutral white wires. Something has to complete the circuit and serve as the neutral after supplying power to the load (the light after the switch).

How old is your house?

 

[stormkroe]

OP, repurpose one of the conductors in the switch into a neutral and replace the switch with a receptacle. This moves your 'problem' back out to the light, which can be solved easily with a pull chain or occupancy sensor. It can be solved with more difficulty by surface mounting a BX or conduit down to a new switch. Epic level fix would be fishing a new switch through the attic and walls.

 

[Micrornd]

Im also confused by the lack of neutral white wires. Something has to complete the circuit and serve as the neutral after supplying power to the load (the light after the switch).

There's nothing really unusual about this.

The light fixture is fed from above, the white (neutral) stops at the fixture, the black (from the feed) is not tied to the fixture, but continues down the wall to the switch and a black from the switch returns and is connected to the fixture and powers it.
The ground from the feed is connected to the fixture and also continues down the wall and ties to the switch.

What is confusing to some, is that they are used to seeing a white (neutral) running through the switch box (normally when it is bottom fed), but it doesn't have to (physically or by code), you just have to adjust the way you look at the circuit, as that way and the above are exactly the same

 

[stormkroe]

There's nothing really unusual about this.

The light fixture is fed from above, the white (neutral) stops at the fixture, the black (from the feed) is not tied to the fixture, but continues down the wall to the switch and a black from the switch returns and is connected to the fixture and powers it.
The ground from the feed is connected to the fixture and also continues down the wall and ties to the switch.

What is confusing to some, is that they are used to seeing a white (neutral) running through the switch box (normally when it is bottom fed), but it doesn't have to (physically or by code), you just have to adjust the way you look at the circuit, as that way and the above are exactly the same

The confusing part is that, if there are only 2 conductors in the box like OP stated, one of them should be white because it would be what's called a 'switch leg', which is 99.999% of the time done with a 14/2 romex in residential. So the original electrician used some kind of really REALLY rare NM with 2 blacks, or they used xlink individual conductors and conduit. Or no conduit, but that would break so many codes that it's highly unlikely.

 

[Paperdoc]

I'm guessing two other possibilities for why the switch box has only two blacks and a bare ground.
1. The white wire in the cable into that box was painted black (or maybe spiral-wound with black tape) to alert people that is IS a HOT lead.
2. The original wiring was done by bringing TWO normal 14/2 cables into the box (for feed and return), but then the installer clipped off the white leads (not to be used, anyway) at the end of the cable, and OP simply has not seen those wire ends. Not a good practice, but conceivable.

 

[paperfist]

Knob and tube wiring?

 

[Greenman]

The confusing part is that, if there are only 2 conductors in the box like OP stated, one of them should be white because it would be what's called a 'switch leg', which is 99.999% of the time done with a 14/2 romex in residential. So the original electrician used some kind of really REALLY rare NM with 2 blacks, or they used xlink individual conductors and conduit. Or no conduit, but that would break so many codes that it's highly unlikely.

I've seen places wired with extension cord. There is no such thing as unlikely.

 

[NetWareHead]

Knob and tube wiring?

That was one of my suspicions and why I asked about the age of the house. Electricians back then had to contend with the prohibitive cost of wire and didnt always run the hots and neutrals together like in modern practice. E.g. a hot wire was run from the box to a switch and then to a light. The return neutral wire would then take the shortest and usually a separate return path back to the fusebox. This is called the Carter wiring system and banned by modern practice.

1. The white wire in the cable into that box was painted black (or maybe spiral-wound with black tape) to alert people that is IS a HOT lead.

Good thinking

 

[Micrornd]

The confusing part is that, if there are only 2 conductors in the box like OP stated, one of them should be white because it would be what's called a 'switch leg'

I'd have to disagree with that (unless I'm misunderstanding your statement), as a switch leg (connected to the switch) it has to be black or red, if it were to be white, it would not meet any US code.
Perhaps the OP can be more specific about the 2 blacks in the box, as to whether they are in a cable, a tube or separate wires.
Since the fixture has a pull chain, its possible the previous owner added the switch to accommodate a short person or children, that couldn't reach the pull chain.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Really depends how it's wired. Since there is only 2 wires going to the switch, my guess is that the main feed comes at the light socket, and then the hot side is sent to the switch box so the switch can cut the power. This means there is no neutral in the box so you can't put an outlet.

I do find it odd that both wires are black though... is it actually painted black like with a sharpie or something is it really black conductor? Try to see if it's coming out of the same cable sleeve, there may be more wires in there that are just pushed to the end. Normally a cable will have a white, black and bare ground. Never seen any with 2 blacks.

 

[paperfist]

That was one of my suspicions and why I asked about the age of the house. Electricians back then had to contend with the prohibitive cost of wire and didnt always run the hots and neutrals together like in modern practice. E.g. a hot wire was run from the box to a switch and then to a light. The return neutral wire would then take the shortest and usually a separate return path back to the fusebox. This is called the Carter wiring system and banned by modern practice.

Good thinking

Was the cost of the wire so much because of lack of manufacturing? Actually if I recall all the knob and tube I had was all aluminum. It was wrapped in stuff that reminded me of fur.

 

[stormkroe]

I'd have to disagree with that (unless I'm misunderstanding your statement), as a switch leg (connected to the switch) it has to be black or red, if it were to be white, it would not meet any US code.
Perhaps the OP can be more specific about the 2 blacks in the box, as to whether they are in a cable, a tube or separate wires.
Since the fixture has a pull chain, its possible the previous owner added the switch to accommodate a short person or children, that couldn't reach the pull chain.

Romex switch legs always contain a white unless you buy some kind of really rare NM without a white in it. Constant power in the light JB goes down to the switch on the white, back up on the black. Can you produce a code against that? I've never seen one.

 

[Micrornd]

Romex switch legs always contain a white unless you buy some kind of really rare NM without a white in it. Constant power in the light JB goes down to the switch on the white, back up on the black. Can you produce a code against that? I've never seen one.

The switch legs have always been required to be black (or red for 3way, 4way) whether actual (as in feed-through for romex or 2 blacks in conduit) or colored by tape, either way both wires connected to the switch are always designated as a red or a black (in residential work). I've never had a inspector accept painted, really can't say why, they just wouldn't and insisted on taped.

White is always only the "neutral" in every state I've worked in (8), and in those "switching the neutral" has always been against code and rejected by all inspectors, similar to the "green is not a color rule".
I simplifying, but, it avoids all confusion as to what the wire really is, since the neutral (white) really only runs as far as the fixture and everything upstream of that (including the switch) is considered the feed (black or red) by code.

I hope that makes more sense?

 

[Greenman]

Romex switch legs always contain a white unless you buy some kind of really rare NM without a white in it. Constant power in the light JB goes down to the switch on the white, back up on the black. Can you produce a code against that? I've never seen one.

It's supposed to be marked. Though you and I both know that half the time the electrician forgets, or uses that cheap Chinese tape that turns to parchment in a year.