Racism- Sotomoyor

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

You are now talking about socioeconomic differences, not the color of skin.
I am all for getting these kids out of bad schools, so this cycle of poverty can be broken, however the powers that be seem to be quite content to keep them in bad schools, rather than let their parents have a choice of where to get thier kids educated.

I AM talking about socioeconomic differences, but they're race problems as well, since they are clearly a much larger problem for minorities than for white people. It's not an issue BECAUSE people are non-white, but it's an issue that disproportionately affects minorities. That makes it a minority issue.

 

[mattpegher]

This case is sad, but the judge who ruled against her could have been any race, as his justifications are not clear. I have not been a 13 year old girl either yet If that was my child that school better fire those bastards before I get to them.

The reverse can be said for anything, I have yet to be 70 years old, I will never be an person with dwarfism. Does this mean that I cannot tell what the courts place is in protecting these individuals. I think not.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison
...
I would like to know what this white privilege is that you speak of. I dont recall anyone giving me a break just because of the color of my skin. And I would be insulted if they did.

It's not that obvious. You're not going to walk into the mall and get a free ice cream because it's "ice cream for white people" day. In fact, it's not about YOU personally at all...it's about the fact that white people tend to be born into better situations overall than black people. And that assumptions made about black people tend to be more negative than those made about white people. And that stereotyping in general happens rarely with white men, but much more often for minorities.

And that has nothing to do with the color of skin.

Why do you think racial problems have to be CAUSED by the color of your skin? The point Sotomoyor was trying to make is that experiences as a hispanic woman are different (and I would argue, possibly tougher) than those most white men experience. Those experiences aren't BECAUSE of skin color, but there is a very strong correlation between prosperity and skin color.

Stereotyping never happens to white men? Ever heard of dumb rednecks?

And how many people, upon meeting a random white guy for the first time, are going to assume he's a dumb redneck?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Rainsford
You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

That's just it, there are some people -- some of them right here in this thread -- who seem to enjoy the delusional notion that somehow racism has been wiped from the face of the earth, and that minorities still don't suffer under a system that favors whites and who encounter all sorts of obstacles to success as they grow up impoverished right here in America. While it would be awesome if this was the case, and while we've made tremendous strides in this country, it just isn't the case.

I think the real issue is that it's not "black people can't vote" or "don't hire the hispanic guy" type of racism, in fact it's often not racism at all. People looking for overt displays of racism won't find many, so they're wrongly conclude that racial problems have been resolved in this country. Except all you need to do is walk around a high school in the 'burbs and a high school in the middle of the city and see how wrong that idea is. Individuals may be less racist than they used to be, but that doesn't mean that there aren't huge social problems facing minorities that the majority simply doesn't have to deal with.

And keep asking yourself why those kids in the inner city are stuck in a crummy school

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

You are now talking about socioeconomic differences, not the color of skin.
I am all for getting these kids out of bad schools, so this cycle of poverty can be broken, however the powers that be seem to be quite content to keep them in bad schools, rather than let their parents have a choice of where to get thier kids educated.

I AM talking about socioeconomic differences, but they're race problems as well, since they are clearly a much larger problem for minorities than for white people. It's not an issue BECAUSE people are non-white, but it's an issue that disproportionately affects minorities. That makes it a minority issue.

No it is bad school problem. Fix the bad school then those minorities will be going to good school.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Rainsford
You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

That's just it, there are some people -- some of them right here in this thread -- who seem to enjoy the delusional notion that somehow racism has been wiped from the face of the earth, and that minorities still don't suffer under a system that favors whites and who encounter all sorts of obstacles to success as they grow up impoverished right here in America. While it would be awesome if this was the case, and while we've made tremendous strides in this country, it just isn't the case.

I think the real issue is that it's not "black people can't vote" or "don't hire the hispanic guy" type of racism, in fact it's often not racism at all. People looking for overt displays of racism won't find many, so they're wrongly conclude that racial problems have been resolved in this country. Except all you need to do is walk around a high school in the 'burbs and a high school in the middle of the city and see how wrong that idea is. Individuals may be less racist than they used to be, but that doesn't mean that there aren't huge social problems facing minorities that the majority simply doesn't have to deal with.

And keep asking yourself why those kids in the inner city are stuck in a crummy school

I do...but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I'm talking about. We DO need solutions for inner city kids stuck in crappy schools, either improve the schools or, if possible, let them go somewhere else. The fact that such measures would overwhelmingly help minority kids proves my point though...white kids need that kind of help a lot less.

 

[OrByte]

wait wait... so all of the hoopla over her comment about her being a Latina judge she was at a CONFERENCE about being a LATIN Judge at the time!?!??!

holy crap.

here is another of her comments at the same conference:

America has a deeply confused image of itself that is in perpetual tension. We are a nation that takes pride in our ethnic diversity, recognizing its importance in shaping our society and in adding richness to its existence. Yet, we simultaneously insist that we can and must function and live in a race and color-blind way that ignore these very differences that in other contexts we laud. That tension between "the melting pot and the salad bowl" -- a recently popular metaphor used to described New York's diversity - is being hotly debated today in national discussions about affirmative action. Many of us struggle with this tension and attempt to maintain and promote our cultural and ethnic identities in a society that is often ambivalent about how to deal with its differences. In this time of great debate we must remember that it is not political struggles that create a Latino or Latina identity. I became a Latina by the way I love and the way I live my life. My family showed me by their example how wonderful and vibrant life is and how wonderful and magical it is to have a Latina soul. They taught me to love being a Puertorriqueña and to love America and value its lesson that great things could be achieved if one works hard for it. But achieving success here is no easy accomplishment for Latinos or Latinas, and although that struggle did not and does not create a Latina identity, it does inspire how I live my life.

So...I guess since she loves being a Latina she is racist because she....loves being Latina?!

you people that think she is racist for her comments need to grow the fvck up.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Yeap, there sure are. Are you honestly disputing white privilege?

I would like to know what this white privilege is that you speak of. I dont recall anyone giving me a break just because of the color of my skin. And I would be insulted if they did.

As already linked in this thread:
Whites receive preferential treatment in employment.

Whites receive preferential treatment when searching for housing.

Blacks are more likely than whites to be killed by police, even in identical circumstances.

Blacks get stiffer drug penalties for the same crime

Whites are only 1/3rd as likely to be searched by the police when stopped.

I could go on all day.

EDIT: What's even worse is that these are only attributes of a much larger underlying bias that is prevalent throughout society. Again I'm not blaming you for it, but you should at least acknowledge that it exists.

 

[mattpegher]

I am not saying that racism doesnot exist, but lets not deny that racist statements can be said about any race, gender or sexual orientation and by any race, gender or sexual orientation.

I work with all races, and genders, and I find that everyone is unique. I don not believe that everyone sees the world as I do, but I wish that they did.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

You are now talking about socioeconomic differences, not the color of skin.
I am all for getting these kids out of bad schools, so this cycle of poverty can be broken, however the powers that be seem to be quite content to keep them in bad schools, rather than let their parents have a choice of where to get thier kids educated.

I AM talking about socioeconomic differences, but they're race problems as well, since they are clearly a much larger problem for minorities than for white people. It's not an issue BECAUSE people are non-white, but it's an issue that disproportionately affects minorities. That makes it a minority issue.

No it is bad school problem. Fix the bad school then those minorities will be going to good school.

Honest to God I don't know what point you're arguing any more...

I'm saying that minorities are frequently at a disadvantage because of the circumstances they grow up with. Is your argument that this isn't a problem since those circumstances aren't intrinsically tied to their skin color?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Rainsford
You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

That's just it, there are some people -- some of them right here in this thread -- who seem to enjoy the delusional notion that somehow racism has been wiped from the face of the earth, and that minorities still don't suffer under a system that favors whites and who encounter all sorts of obstacles to success as they grow up impoverished right here in America. While it would be awesome if this was the case, and while we've made tremendous strides in this country, it just isn't the case.

I think the real issue is that it's not "black people can't vote" or "don't hire the hispanic guy" type of racism, in fact it's often not racism at all. People looking for overt displays of racism won't find many, so they're wrongly conclude that racial problems have been resolved in this country. Except all you need to do is walk around a high school in the 'burbs and a high school in the middle of the city and see how wrong that idea is. Individuals may be less racist than they used to be, but that doesn't mean that there aren't huge social problems facing minorities that the majority simply doesn't have to deal with.

And keep asking yourself why those kids in the inner city are stuck in a crummy school

I do...but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I'm talking about. We DO need solutions for inner city kids stuck in crappy schools, either improve the schools or, if possible, let them go somewhere else. The fact that such measures would overwhelmingly help minority kids proves my point though...white kids need that kind of help a lot less.

And I have been advocating for years, that vouchers would help this kids the most. Yes that keeps getting slapped down by liberal politicians.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am not saying that racism doesnot exist, but lets not deny that racist statements can be said about any race, gender or sexual orientation and by any race, gender or sexual orientation.

I work with all races, and genders, and I find that everyone is unique. I don not believe that everyone sees the world as I do, but I wish that they did.

I can agree with that

so show me how the judges comments are racist.

Exactly how does she say she hates whitey?

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am not saying that racism doesnot exist, but lets not deny that racist statements can be said about any race, gender or sexual orientation and by any race, gender or sexual orientation.

Yep. Or homophobia as some minorities have even they are non-whites.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford

You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black? Or the fact that crime and gangs and metal detectors in the school are mostly problems in areas where white people don't live? You're talking about the abstract idea of equality of opportunity, and I agree with you there, but ignoring the real world factors doesn't make sense. I grew up in a nice suburb with a decent amount of money, and I'm not going to pretend that I didn't have an easier time of it than some poor black kid who grew up in a ghetto.

You are now talking about socioeconomic differences, not the color of skin.
I am all for getting these kids out of bad schools, so this cycle of poverty can be broken, however the powers that be seem to be quite content to keep them in bad schools, rather than let their parents have a choice of where to get thier kids educated.

I AM talking about socioeconomic differences, but they're race problems as well, since they are clearly a much larger problem for minorities than for white people. It's not an issue BECAUSE people are non-white, but it's an issue that disproportionately affects minorities. That makes it a minority issue.

No it is bad school problem. Fix the bad school then those minorities will be going to good school.

Honest to God I don't know what point you're arguing any more...

I'm saying that minorities are frequently at a disadvantage because of the circumstances they grow up with. Is your argument that this isn't a problem since those circumstances aren't intrinsically tied to their skin color?

You say whites get better schooling because well they are white and mintories are stuck in bad schools, because they are not white.

I am saying it is not a skin color issue, but a socioeconomic issue more than anything. Get them out of the failed schools and education gap will just go away.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Yeap, there sure are. Are you honestly disputing white privilege?

I would like to know what this white privilege is that you speak of. I dont recall anyone giving me a break just because of the color of my skin. And I would be insulted if they did.

As already linked in this thread:
Whites receive preferential treatment in employment.

Whites receive preferential treatment when searching for housing.

Blacks are more likely than whites to be killed by police, even in identical circumstances.

Blacks get stiffer drug penalties for the same crime

Whites are only 1/3rd as likely to be searched by the police when stopped.

I could go on all day.

EDIT: What's even worse is that these are only attributes of a much larger underlying bias that is prevalent throughout society. Again I'm not blaming you for it, but you should at least acknowledge that it exists.

Why have none of the privilege-denying posters commented on these studies?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Yeap, there sure are. Are you honestly disputing white privilege?

I would like to know what this white privilege is that you speak of. I dont recall anyone giving me a break just because of the color of my skin. And I would be insulted if they did.

As already linked in this thread:
Whites receive preferential treatment in employment.

Whites receive preferential treatment when searching for housing.

Blacks are more likely than whites to be killed by police, even in identical circumstances.

Blacks get stiffer drug penalties for the same crime

Whites are only 1/3rd as likely to be searched by the police when stopped.

I could go on all day.

EDIT: What's even worse is that these are only attributes of a much larger underlying bias that is prevalent throughout society. Again I'm not blaming you for it, but you should at least acknowledge that it exists.

Why have none of the privilege-denying posters commented on these studies?

I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

Getting a longer sentence for a crime, having a harder time finding a house, getting searched by the police, or being less likely to get a call-back from employers are "not on large enough scale to make a difference in life outcomes?"

Let me repeat: Getting a longer sentences for crimes "is not on large enough scale to make a real difference in life outcomes?"

Are you stupid?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

Getting a longer sentence for a crime, having a harder time finding a house, getting searched by the police, or being less likely to get a call-back from employers are "not on large enough scale to make a difference in life outcomes?"

Let me repeat: Getting a longer sentence for a crime "is not on large enough scale to make a real difference in life outcomes?"

Are you stupid?

Well like I said there may be some bias, but not enough to really matter. Dont commit crime and you wont get any jail time. Have good credit and you will find someone to get loan from. There is always going to bias and racism no matter what we do.

 

[newnameman]

Originally posted by: OrByte
wait wait... so all of the hoopla over her comment about her being a Latina judge she was at a CONFERENCE about being a LATIN Judge at the time!?!??!

holy crap.

here is another of her comments at the same conference:

America has a deeply confused image of itself that is in perpetual tension. We are a nation that takes pride in our ethnic diversity, recognizing its importance in shaping our society and in adding richness to its existence. Yet, we simultaneously insist that we can and must function and live in a race and color-blind way that ignore these very differences that in other contexts we laud. That tension between "the melting pot and the salad bowl" -- a recently popular metaphor used to described New York's diversity - is being hotly debated today in national discussions about affirmative action. Many of us struggle with this tension and attempt to maintain and promote our cultural and ethnic identities in a society that is often ambivalent about how to deal with its differences. In this time of great debate we must remember that it is not political struggles that create a Latino or Latina identity. I became a Latina by the way I love and the way I live my life. My family showed me by their example how wonderful and vibrant life is and how wonderful and magical it is to have a Latina soul. They taught me to love being a Puertorriqueña and to love America and value its lesson that great things could be achieved if one works hard for it. But achieving success here is no easy accomplishment for Latinos or Latinas, and although that struggle did not and does not create a Latina identity, it does inspire how I live my life.

So...I guess since she loves being a Latina she is racist because she....loves being Latina?!

you people that think she is racist for her comments need to grow the fvck up.

So if John Roberts or Sam Alito had said "I would hope that a wise white man with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion as a judge than a Latina women who hasn't lived that life" you wouldn't have had any problem with that?

 

[mattpegher]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am not saying that racism doesnot exist, but lets not deny that racist statements can be said about any race, gender or sexual orientation and by any race, gender or sexual orientation.

I work with all races, and genders, and I find that everyone is unique. I don not believe that everyone sees the world as I do, but I wish that they did.

I can agree with that

so show me how the judges comments are racist.

Exactly how does she say she hates whitey?

I may be taking the statement out of context. Unfortunately, only heard it second hand on NPR. I think she simply didnot see her words as racist, my contention is that if she had reversed the demographics it would be considered so.

The statement is as follows however, "Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life." This is a poor choice of words and I believe tailored to the audience, and therefore more political than legal. Something I hope she is not.

 

[XMan]

I don't think she's a racist. I would like to give kudos to the Obama admin for nominating a pro-Life justice, however.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05...litics/28abortion.html

 

[maluckey]

I don't think is so much racist as condescending and smug to think that just because you come from somewhere that it gives you certain insights that others may or may not have.

My ancestors were certainly not WASP's by any description, but oddly enough I get lumped into the mix by bigots. I was once berated for not not showing more compassion for the Latin ways, when I arrested a narco-trafficker in front of his family.

Of course I demanded, and got an apology from the supervisor (a latino) who later admitted that he was out of line. Officer safety and the safety of the detainee outweigh any other concerns during arrests.

I was once told that I should pay reparation for american slavery......my family didn't come to this country until 1913.......I wasn born until MANY years later. As far as we know, no slaves were ever owned by our family (all the way bay to the 16th century, though indentured servants were discovered).

To ASSume that know an individual's story based off of his skin color or name is absurd. Barack Hussein Obama anyone?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
Don't get me wrong, I think that she will make a fine cheif justice and most of her statements suggest that she will make judgments based on law not politics. That said, I am getting a bit irritated at the openly racist statement coming out of some folks lately. She states that her experience as a latino female would lead to wiser choices than that of a white male. Flip those demographics and every one would be on you like flies on dung.

Why is it acceptable to assert that as a white male, I am privileged and culturally biased. I have had no special advantages. I went to public school in a mixed race suburb. I worked my way through school. Neither, I or any of my ancestors ever owned a slave.

Reverse racism is just as bad as racism.

your goofy dude. Crawl back under your rock!!

 

[mattpegher]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: mattpegher
Don't get me wrong, I think that she will make a fine cheif justice and most of her statements suggest that she will make judgments based on law not politics. That said, I am getting a bit irritated at the openly racist statement coming out of some folks lately. She states that her experience as a latino female would lead to wiser choices than that of a white male. Flip those demographics and every one would be on you like flies on dung.

Why is it acceptable to assert that as a white male, I am privileged and culturally biased. I have had no special advantages. I went to public school in a mixed race suburb. I worked my way through school. Neither, I or any of my ancestors ever owned a slave.

Reverse racism is just as bad as racism.

your goofy dude. Crawl back under your rock!!

I faulter in the light of your unquestionalble argument agast at your intellect.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: charrison

I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's pretty easy to say when you're on the side that benefits from this discrimination. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that black people would tend to disagree.