Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Carfax83]

Is HWiNFO reporting 235W for a 40K run?

I believe it was but I didn't really check to be honest. I know that I definitely did set the PL1 and PL2 values to 235w. The average power draw would have been lower however.

From my experience, HWinfo reports accurately when it comes to power draw.

 

[Hulk]

I believe it was but I didn't really check to be honest. I know that I definitely did set the PL1 and PL2 values to 235w. The average power draw would have been lower however.

From my experience, HWinfo reports accurately when it comes to power draw.

38,811 for 250 watts package power as reported by HWinfo. -0.05 Vcore offset. 280mm AIO radiator out of the case. Max temp 80C but most cores in the mid 70's.

I'm telling you, besides your great case and setup you got a great chip!

 

[Carfax83]

38,811 for 250 watts package power as reported by HWinfo. -0.05 Vcore offset. 280mm AIO radiator out of the case. Max temp 80C but most cores in the mid 70's.

What clock speed are you getting for 250watts?

I tried setting mine to 250w and I put the clock speed at 5.5ghz, but it only briefly hit 5.5ghz and then bounced between 5.4 and 5.3ghz for the vast majority of the time. Max reported package temp was 91c, but it mostly stayed at 87c.

I'm definitely thermally limited. I'm confident I could hit 5.5ghz all core with a good AiO, but I still prefer air cooling for the simplicity and ease of mind. The Noctua NH-U12A packs a mighty punch for such a small heatsink, and the Fractal Torrent is a great partner as it funnels a metric ton of air through the case and out the back.

I'm telling you, besides your great case and setup you got a great chip!

Yeah I'm happy with my chip I'm not going to lie

 

[Hulk]

What clock speed are you getting for 250watts?

I tried setting mine to 250w and I put the clock speed at 5.5ghz, but it only briefly hit 5.5ghz and then bounced between 5.4 and 5.3ghz for the vast majority of the time. Max reported package temp was 91c, but it mostly stayed at 87c.

I'm definitely thermally limited. I'm confident I could hit 5.5ghz all core with a good AiO, but I still prefer air cooling for the simplicity and ease of mind. The Noctua NH-U12A packs a mighty punch for such a small heatsink, and the Fractal Torrent is a great partner as it funnels a metric ton of air through the case and out the back.



Yeah I'm happy with my chip I'm not going to lie

What clock speed are you getting for 250watts?

I tried setting mine to 250w and I put the clock speed at 5.5ghz, but it only briefly hit 5.5ghz and then bounced between 5.4 and 5.3ghz for the vast majority of the time. Max reported package temp was 91c, but it mostly stayed at 87c.

I'm definitely thermally limited. I'm confident I could hit 5.5ghz all core with a good AiO, but I still prefer air cooling for the simplicity and ease of mind. The Noctua NH-U12A packs a mighty punch for such a small heatsink, and the Fractal Torrent is a great partner as it funnels a metric ton of air through the case and out the back.



Yeah I'm happy with my chip I'm not going to lie

5.3/4.2

 

[Storm-Chaser]

Is the 13900KF a better bin than the 13900K?

 

[Carfax83]

5.3/4.2

You know, some of your issues may be due to having a microATX Z690 chipset motherboard. I've read that Raptor Lake doesn't perform as well on the Z690 chipset as it does with the Z790. Also a microATX motherboard may lack the power delivery of a full ATX motherboard, as your CPU should be getting higher clock speeds than mine since you now have an AiO.

At 250w I'm at 90c so I'm thermally limited, but you still have headroom.

 

[Carfax83]

Is the 13900KF a better bin than the 13900K?

No, the 13900KF shouldn't be better binned than the 13900K. The only difference between them is that the 13900K comes with an integrated GPU.

 

[Kocicak]

In theory some 13900KF could be the highest possible quality silicone, which had just bad luck in the graphic department. It could have become 13900KS, if it had the GPU functional.

Some people searching for the best silicone are specifically targeting these chips for this reason.

 

[Hulk]

You know, some of your issues may be due to having a microATX Z690 chipset motherboard. I've read that Raptor Lake doesn't perform as well on the Z690 chipset as it does with the Z790. Also a microATX motherboard may lack the power delivery of a full ATX motherboard, as your CPU should be getting higher clock speeds than mine since you now have an AiO.

At 250w I'm at 90c so I'm thermally limited, but you still have headroom.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are getting 5.3/4.2 in CB at 235 watts right? I'm getting those frequencies at 250 watts. I think the difference is that your chip undervolts better than mine. You just got better silicon. I have found a sweet spot for my rig though. 225W PL1, 250PL2 with a 20 second tau keeps things speedy and cool.

Plus, and this is important, so many applications don't load not only the cpus, meaning multithreading, but the individual cores. What I'm saying is at 225W I can't hit 5.5GHz in CB. BUT, in an actual application like Presonus Studio One, when I'm rendering out a multitrack file with tons of tracks and intensive plugins all cores will be pegged at 5.5GHz. It's not 100% usage as the loaded cores bounce around, but since not all resources in the cores are being utilized they aren't drawing a lot of power. So for an app like Studio One the 13900K uses every one of those available cycles while only drawing about 90 watts.

Photoshop is another good one for Raptor as it generally only "hits" hard for 2 or 3 seconds while applying a filter. The only time I notice power being an issue is for something like Handbrake. Even Vegas Video can't fully utilize all of these cores all the time so the clocks ramp up very high with not too high power usage. The point being that for real world usage having the capability of very high clocks is quite useful because most applications don't use all of the cores and more importantly don't use all of the resources in a core.

This is one reason why Raptor does well against Zen 4 in most real world situations. The high clocks don't often occur with fully saturated cores, not all cores are loaded, and high saturation/loading is often bursty.

 

[Accord99]

Is the 13900KF a better bin than the 13900K?

Igor's Lab has an article with an analysis of several hundred 13900K/KFs using the SP values read out with an Asus motherboard. Though after reading the article, it doesn't seem like their is a strong finding for one model over the other.

Intel 13th Gen Raptor Lake binning – over 500 CPUs tested! | Part 1: i9-13900K and 13900KF | igor´sLAB

Just in time for Christmas we have something special for you today. With the help of MIFCOM, we were allowed to bin a statistically not insignificant amount of CPUs (over 500 in total) and today we…

www.igorslab.de

 

[Hulk]

Igor's Lab has an article with an analysis of several hundred 13900K/KFs using the SP values read out with an Asus motherboard. Though after reading the article, it doesn't seem like their is a strong finding for one model over the other.

Intel 13th Gen Raptor Lake binning – over 500 CPUs tested! | Part 1: i9-13900K and 13900KF | igor´sLAB

Just in time for Christmas we have something special for you today. With the help of MIFCOM, we were allowed to bin a statistically not insignificant amount of CPUs (over 500 in total) and today we…

www.igorslab.de

Good find. Thanks for sharing.

I don't know why after all that testing they didn't take one chip at the right of the curve (a good one), one in the middle (an average one), and one on the left (a not so good one) and actual do some quick Cinebench testing to see at let's say 200W how each performs?

All that work and we don't know what the real world difference is between the best and worst parts.

 

[Harry_Wild]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-non-k-raptor-lake-cpus-listed-and-pirced

CPU	Configuration	Price in EUR	Price in USD (w/o VAT)
Core i9-13900	8P + 16E	765	675
Core i9-13900F	8P + 16E	730	644
Core i7-13700	8P + 8E	520	459
Core i7-13700F	8P + 8E	485	428
Core i5-13500	6P + 8E	320	282
Core i5-13400	6P + 4E	306	270
Core i5-13400F	6P + 4E	277	244
Core i3-13100	4P	189	167
Core i3-13100	4P	154	136

My new 65W; Raptor Lake Core i5-13400 with 2- 16DDR5 16GB RAM, 1TB NvMe DDR4 and cheapo motherboard! Fine addition to my needs of internet surfing, email and streaming content from paid channels.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My new 65W; Raptor Lake Core i5-13400 with 2- 16DDR5 16GB RAM, 1TB NvMe DDR4 and cheapo motherboard! Fine addition to my needs of internet surfing, email and streaming content from paid channels.

So one Raptor Lake 65W and one Zen 4 65W as backup?

But why not one Apple fanless system too?

 

[Carfax83]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are getting 5.3/4.2 in CB at 235 watts right?

5.3/4.3 at 235 watts.

I'm getting those frequencies at 250 watts. I think the difference is that your chip undervolts better than mine. You just got better silicon. I have found a sweet spot for my rig though. 225W PL1, 250PL2 with a 20 second tau keeps things speedy and cool.

I think you may be right. I checked the SP rating for my CPU and it's 109, which is apparently very rare.

Plus, and this is important, so many applications don't load not only the cpus, meaning multithreading, but the individual cores. What I'm saying is at 225W I can't hit 5.5GHz in CB. BUT, in an actual application like Presonus Studio One, when I'm rendering out a multitrack file with tons of tracks and intensive plugins all cores will be pegged at 5.5GHz. It's not 100% usage as the loaded cores bounce around, but since not all resources in the cores are being utilized they aren't drawing a lot of power. So for an app like Studio One the 13900K uses every one of those available cycles while only drawing about 90 watts.

I agree, this is true. In gaming workloads, I was able to hit and sustain 5.4ghz at 235w.

 

[TheELF]

Good find. Thanks for sharing.

I don't know why after all that testing they didn't take one chip at the right of the curve (a good one), one in the middle (an average one), and one on the left (a not so good one) and actual do some quick Cinebench testing to see at let's say 200W how each performs?

All that work and we don't know what the real world difference is between the best and worst parts.

Because at 200W all of them would have 100% the same performance, the binning affects the Vcore needed to get that performance but at 200W all of the CPUs would be within normal limits so there would be no change.

This is only relevant for extreme overclocking where you want the CPU that will go the highest with the least amount of Vcore.

Simply put, each individual CPU is a bit different from the factory, so some can be clocked better or require less voltage for the same clock, and some require more voltage. To compensate for this, Intel already tests each CPU for its silicon properties during production and then stores a special V/F curve for each individual chip, which defines how much voltage is requested from the motherboard at which clock (SVID). This compensates for manufacturing-related tolerances and ensures that each CPU is always stable while operating as cool and efficiently as possible.

 

[Hulk]

5.3/4.3 at 235 watts.
I think you may be right. I checked the SP rating for my CPU and it's 109, which is apparently very rare.

How did you check your SP rating? I assume you have one of those mobo that can check it?

 

[Hulk]

Because at 200W all of them would have 100% the same performance, the binning affects the Vcore needed to get that performance but at 200W all of the CPUs would be within normal limits so there would be no change.

This is only relevant for extreme overclocking where you want the CPU that will go the highest with the least amount of Vcore.

My 13900K and Carfax83's perform very differently at 200W. He gets much better frequencies/performance.

 

[TheELF]

My 13900K and Carfax83's perform very differently at 200W. He gets much better frequencies/performance.

Yes, I'm sure you also have the exact same everything hardware and software, including windows and bench versions, like a review would have...

 

[Hulk]

Yes, I'm sure you also have the exact same everything hardware and software, including windows and bench versions, like a review would have...

When running Cinebench, which as been proven to be comparable across a wide range of systems you can check package power using HWinfo, which again is reliable from system to system.

I'm not a betting man but I might bet that if CarFax83 and I swapped CPU's we'd get virtually the same performance on the other person's system. The bottom line is he has a 109 SP CPU and can underclock 125mV I can only underclock mine 50mV and that fact is represented by him being able to run higher clocks at same power level as me.

Then again from your posts here I'm pretty sure you have a better understanding of these matters than I do so if you say I'm not "getting it" then I'll accept that.

 

[lopri]

Are they raising the prices? I thought 13700K was $419.

 

[dullard]

Are they raising the prices? I thought 13700K was $419.

Not that I have heard. This happens with every single chip release. People come out with some leak in some foreign country that is higher than expected. These are pre-orders, with profits, once currencies have been converted from dollars to the foreign price and back to dollars, including shipping to Europe and back to the US. Don't ever fall into the trap of thinking that this type of pre-release price rumor is the true price.

But, it does give a reasonable idea where the prices will fall in line with the existing chips.

 

[nicalandia]

Intel 1350P vs Intel 1250P

Acer TravelMate P614-53 vs H3C H3CBook Ultra 14T - Geekbench

 

[alexruiz]

Intel 1350P vs Intel 1250P

View attachment 73589

Acer TravelMate P614-53 vs H3C H3CBook Ultra 14T - Geekbench

What combination of P cores plus E cores gives these 12 cores / 16 threads CPUs?
4P + 8E?

 

[Harry_Wild]

So one Raptor Lake 65W and one Zen 4 65W as backup?

But why not one Apple fanless system too?

I think Windows is more widely in business and has much more adoptability other then in music and video editing.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think Windows is more widely in business and has much more adoptability other then in music and video editing.

Fine addition to my needs of internet surfing, email and streaming content from paid channels.

I was referring to your "needs" which a Macbook/Mac Mini would fulfill with even lower power usage than Intel or AMD. You didn't mention anything that the Mac wouldn't be able to do. If power usage is your main concern, you can't do better than M1/M2 Mac.